Building an LMS Stove R That Works

[brossard]

OK, so I've wanted a Stove R forever.  I have a thing about 6 wheeled vehicles so this is an essential "cop".  When the Dapol/Hornby/Ian Allen model came out a couple of years ago I happily grabbed two, one in BR guise and the other LMS.  At the time I was dabbling in early 1960's BR and wanted a milk train having already got a bunch of milk tanks (also 6 wheeled).

The issues with this Dapol model have been well documented and, of course my BR version was unhappy.  I was also unhappy because the wheels were 12mm instead 14mm and the brake shoes were miles away from the wheels.  The van also wouldn't stay on the track.

In this case, I modified the works fairly extensively and got it to a state where it looked reasonable and ran reliably.  I discuss what I did here:

http://bmrcm.org/stove-r-from-Hornby-magazine-and-Dapol

The LMS model has a well executed body and excellently rendered lining and lettering.  I had hoped that I could use the body as is while focusing on the underframe for EM gauge.  Alas, this was not to be because for whatever reason Dapol chose to put the central lining above the door handles instead of through them:

 

 

 

It really is a crying shame because Dapol must have access to all the books I have (and more) and there is not one picture showing the lining in the above position (I rather hoped there was), so, really no excuse. http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/casse-mur-briques.gif  I went through a period of navel gazing and tooth sucking before finally resolving that this won't do.  I removed the paint and lettering with a fiberglass pen http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/icon_cry.gif.

I'll document my second go at this.  My first go involved a Brassmaster's Cleminson chassis kit which all worked well enough until I tried it with axleboxes attached - then it all went pear shaped because the axleboxes tended to foul as they moved over the solebars http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/icon_eek.gif.

However, I did some trials and found that with the outside axles locked and a sliding center axle, the underframe could work.
This is a huge disappointment of course but "never give up".  The cleminson chassis was put to one side for another project and I started again.

 

A note on the references used:

 

1)  Historic Carriage Drawings Vol 3, NPCS by Peter Tatlow.  There's a 4mm drawing that I've found very useful along with photos.

2)  LMS Journal #31.  There's an article by Essery about Palethorpes vans and a reproduction of a works drawing showing the brake arrangement - something that can be difficult to find.

3) LMS Coaches by Jenkinson and Essery

This time I used a Comet 4/6 wheel underframe kit:

 

 

 

This comes out as this:

 

 

 

For W irons I went for Bill Bedford sprung units.

 

 

 

 

These work well but are a fiddle to assemble.

I found some that had already been made up but, for some reason that escapes me, the brakes had been cut off.

 

 

You will note that the bearing carriers have a spring wire that threads through holes in the bottom corners of the W irons.

 

I used Bachmann 14mm wheels for this build, but reworked them to the EM spec.

 

 

 

I think the difference is pretty clear in this picture.

Now I mentioned "sliding center axle" earlier.  You may well be asking "what's that"?  This lets the wheels freely move from side to side to compensate for curves.
What you need is to find a length of brass tubing that is ideally 2mm in diameter with an ID of 1mm ish.  Well, I couldn't so I improvised.

I had some brass tube of ~ 1.5mm dia and an ID that was near enough 0.032" ( just shy of 1mm). (I did find some tubing of 2.38mm dia which was too large to go into the 2mm ID bush.  I also know from experience that trying to ream these plastic bushes doesn't work well.  The plastic is such that the reamer doesn't so much cut (as it should) but deform the bushing.  This leaves you with an eccentric wheel.)

So, I left that overnight for my grey cells to mull over and, sure enough, the answer came to me.  What I needed was to replace the bush with plastic that reamer will cut, ie Evergreen.  0.100" evergreen rod is slop fit in the wheel but secures well with cyano.  I then, carefully, drilled a 0.020" hole in the center of the rod, enlarging to 0.032" while trying to keep things square by squinting at it.  I finally opened the hole with reamer to 2mm which then let me insert the axle.  I was astounded to discover that things came out concentric if a tad wobbly (fixed by tweaking).  

 

Here's what you get:

 

 

You can see the cosmetic brass tube axle.  The actual axle (sticking out) is 0.032" steel wire (as used in Cobalt point motors) with a sort of a pinpoint ground on each end.  It's length is 26mm to fit in the pinpoint bearings.  The other thing I wanted to do was maximize the amount of slide so I filed the front of the wheel from 2.3mm to 2mm. 

The next task was to complete the axle units by adding brakes:

 

 

This is a Mainly Trains etch designed by Iain Rice.

The brakes fold up to produce this:

 

 

These are fitted (awkwardly) by using the mounted wheels as a location jig and soldering the tabs to the W irons, thusly:

 

 

I also added cosmetic yokes (with the middle bit cut away) from Bill's fret.

I then laboriously added safety loops:

 

 

This was fine NS wire soldered into holes that I drilled in the base of the W irons.  Looking very busy now.

Next up was stepboards. The Dapol model is wrong here again, having stepboards of 3/4 length of the solebars with gaps at either end.  From my pictures and drawings, these should be 7/8 the length of the solebar with gaps at only one end diagonally opposed to each other:

 

 

 

Fixing stepboards is a tricky business because you need to get them as straight as you can.  My approach:

1 -  I made a jig from scrap brass that just fit in the solebar channel.  I then drilled a 0.020" hole in the jig at the position I wanted the stepboard supports.
2 -  Determine the locations of the supports along the length of the solebars.  I use a black marker and scriber for this - easier to see.
3 -  Using your drill and the jig, mark the holes where you want the supports.   You can now drill through using the marked holes to locate the drill.
4 -  Next do the same on the other side, making the holes directly opposite.
5 -  Thread wire of your choice through the holes on both sides.  This will provide support for your stepboards.  Solder them in place.
6 -  Fix the stepboards to the supports with solder.  Squint down their length and tweak until things are as straight as you get them.  You can trim the excess wire from the stepboards but leave the wire in the middle of the underframe alone!
7 -  Fix the opposite side stepboards, trim.
8 -  Once the boards are secure and straight, remove the redundant wire from the center of the underframe.

Finally, the moment of truth!.  I enlarged the holes for 8BA and soldered nuts to the inside of the underframe.  I then attached  the axle units to the underframe.  The underframe was then tested on the track - it worked!

 

 

I had to do some tweaks with the brakes to get the wheels free running.  I left the outer axle units loose so they could swivel.   This is only very slight because there's not a lot of room between the W iron and solebar.

 

Brake rigging was next - a great fiddle but I think it's accurate, being based on the drawing in LMSJ 31.

 

From normal viewing angles, you can tell it's there.

 

The complicated bit is around the vac cylinder.  There's a second set of vee hangers, to the left, for the mechanism that reverses the direction of pull for the rightmost brakes.  The main crank has two holes with the center hole acting on the brake rods for the center and leftmost brakes.

I soldered vee hangers to the base of the axle units to receive the pull rods - this is, of course a simplification and the rods are just stuck in.

 

I took the picture above before washing so there's a bit of a mess of paste flux around the dynamo.  The 70C solder is a bit blobby too (I pre-tinned the brass with 145C solder).  The belt is a strip of scrap fret soldered to the floor of the van. 

I find that with all this mass of metal I need to increase my soldering iron heat to around 360C to get things working.  If you plan to do things like this (and can avoid getting committed), a variable temp. iron is a good investment.  Mine also gives a tip temp. readout.

 

A bit more progress adding the other gubbins, such as battery boxes and steps.

 

I thought I'd put the body on to see how things stand.  Pretty good but I think I have a bit more fettling to get the body to sit just so.

I replaced the plastic moulded angles on the battery boxes with brass angle.  Not because the plastic was particularly bad, but because the extensions got broken in the course of my mucking about.

 

The voltage regulator has to be glued on.  It fits between the struts of the wide step (made from scraps of brass and wire).  The small steps are from the Comet fret.

 

We`re nearly there I think.  I`ve been working on this for a while but I did'nt know whether I could make it work or not so held off posting.

 

John

Edited August 31, 2023 by brossard

[coachmann]

Gold plating a plastic teapot! You have done the hard bit building the brass chassis Bossard, so why not complement it with a brass Comet body. The plastic body will never look like a flush sided one.  Just a thought.

 

Edited June 25, 2014 by coachmann

[Enterprisingwestern]

YIPPEE

 

A coachmann picture

 

Mike.

[LNWR lives on]

If you can afford it I would be with Coach on this one, you have done the hard work with the chassis, you obviously have the skills so mount a body on it that deserves to be there, put the Dapol back together if you can and let it go on ebay. Comparing the pictures the Comet body looks so much sharper than the Dapol version

[brossard]

Doh!  After coming this far I think I'll see where it goes.  There is really nothing left of the old underframe but bits and pieces.  I still have my other one (see link) more or less intact.

 

20/20 hindsight and yes, I should have done the Comet kit.

 

Thanks for the thoughts guys.

 

John

 

Edit:  OK, I just put in an order with Comet for a Stove R kit and a bunch of other stuff.  This gives me some flexibility.

Edited June 25, 2014 by brossard

[Jol Wilkinson]

John,

 

if you like six wheel vehicles you should take up modelling the pre-group era. Plenty of choice there, including kits with Cleminson underframes that do go around model curves.

 

Jol

[PGC]

John,

 

if you like six wheel vehicles you should take up modelling the pre-group era. Plenty of choice there, including kits with Cleminson underframes that do go around model curves.

 

Jol

 

Other manufacturers are available, such as Brassmasters............    

 

Phil

[buffalo]

Cleminsons are not only unprototypical for most six wheelers but are a quite unnecessary complexity for those not limited by train set radii. John's approach with a sliding axle works well in P4 and will give increasingly more movement for tighter radii in EM and 00. I've used this approach before with 2mm o/d, 1mm i/d brass tube on 1mm silver steel. Fortunately, over here they are both available from Eileen's.

 

Nick

[brossard]

Jol, I do like 6 wheelers but I think this is the last one I will need (until the next one that is).  I love pre-grouping and would probably go Midland if I was to travel that road.   I'm pretty heavily invested in LMS though.

 

Phil, I mentioned that I had started with a Brassmasters chassis but things went wrong with axleboxes fouling solebars.  I did build a vehicle using a Slater's Cleminson:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79126-lms-6-wheel-insulated-milk-van/

 

This was a success I think because I fixed the W irons to the solebar supporting the axles on inside bearings.  If I was to do a Cleminson again (and my Brassmaster's is still usable) I would do it the same way.

 

Thanks for the tip Nick, I did struggle to find the right material for the sliding axle and got lucky that my bodge worked.  I've bought a fair few things from Eileen's.

 

Notwithstanding the above, I do actually have one other 6 wheeler in mind - the Fish Van (Chivers Kit).  This was introduced in 1947 (IIRC) so out of era for my LMS needs.  However, a friend is supposed to be doing a 1960's ish EM layout so that's in my back pocket.

 

Thanks all for the comments.

 

John

[brossard]

A quick update.  The underframe was completed yesterday with the addition of the buffer beams, salvaged from the Dapolmodel - yay!  Also the voltage regulator.  I gave it a shot of grey primer last night.

 

John

[Mallard60022]

My advice - use the plastic body for a 'grounded' mess hut or store and get a Comet pack; you won't regret it especially as you have made such a damn fine job of that wheel set.

P

[brossard]

Thanks Phil (is it?).  I've ordered the Comet kit so we'll see what the difference is. 

 

John

[Mallard60022]

John, it is, however I am called all sorts of unrepeatable names on here............  

Had only just noticed you are in Canada. Bit of a wait for your body!! Look forward to seeing the end result.

P

[brossard]

I promise to be polite, I am Canadian after all.  It's not that bad as a rule.  I get my stuff within a week to 10 days.  Geoff B can't ship my order until mid July due to some parts on back order.

 

John

Edited June 27, 2014 by brossard

[Mallard60022]

That would be my excuse for not getting on with something and I live in the UK........!

Chivers don't do a Stove do they? I quite like their old plastic kits. good mouldings that can be enhanced with 'proper' handles and commodes etc.

 

P

[brossard]

Chivers have a plastic kit of the LMS 6 wheeled fish van - it's on my list but not a priority because it will have to wear BR livery.  I did the LMS brass brake van - nice kit.  In fact they all are.

 

John

[Mallard60022]

Yea. I did that plassi Fish Van in EM and BR Maroon and didn't even change the false centre 'wheels'. Nobody noticed when It was in my stock during an exhibition I took my layout to last year.

I've done two of their LNER D172  120 I think  know it is, in EM again. One just as it came plus 'proper' handles (MJT I think I used) and the other using Comet sides and ends plus the proper handles again. Both look good in BR Maroon.

Phil

 

Edit to change Diagram as I am daft.......

Edited June 28, 2014 by Mallard60022

[brossard]

Being somewhat pedantic and maybe OCD, I wouldn't let those fake wheels pass.  However, I recognise that if the builder isn't prepared to go to the lengths I have gone to (and I suspect very few are), they serve a purpose.

 

Showing my ignorance of things NOT LMS, I have no clue as to what a D172 is.

 

John

[Mallard60022]

Not surprised as I should have said D 120.

I think this could be Coachman's build but I'm not sure?

 

These are the two I did 

 

....and an Isinglass one I did for someone else...

 

...and this is the 'real thing' (@ The North Norfolk Railway and very beautiful it is too as I saw it just a few weeks back

 

 

P

Edited June 28, 2014 by Mallard60022

[brossard]

Well you're way ahead of me Phil.  I'll just have to catch up.  Those are lovely.  I see some have duckets, others not.

 

John

[Fat Controller]

Well you're way ahead of me Phil.  I'll just have to catch up.  Those are lovely.  I see some have duckets, others not.

 

John

Isn't it the case that the duckets were only on one side?

[brossard]

I daresay that is so.  I mentioned above that my ignorance of things LNER was profound but always prepared to learn.

 

John

[brossard]

The underframe has been painted now.  I'm in the process of getting some paint on the body (for the third time - grrrr!).  I'll post some pictures when things are somewhat presentable.

 

John

[Mallard60022]

Isn't it the case that the duckets were only on one side?

Can't remember without looking at a plan!!

P

[jwealleans]

Duckets on one side only. Battery boxes are a bit of a moveable feast as well. Just don't go anywhere near what they were used for....

Edited June 30, 2014 by jwealleans