British Modular System - the initial ideas and debates

[PaulRhB]

- who's making the fiddle yards ?

We don't know yet, isn't it exciting! Plus we don't necessarily need them depending on what stations we get.

[peter220950]

My mistake, I was assuming using the two connections on a phono were to be used one for each track, not two phono sockets at each end and jump leads  presumably just using one connection, not the sleeve, that's fine.

 

Edit add P.S.

 

Do modules get turned around in practice???

Edited July 20, 2014 by peter220950

[Redkiterail]

Andy:

                                       Red=Left Hand Rail

 looking from here          Sleeper

                                       Black= Right Hand Rail

 

Secondly:

If people are modeling stations and or yards or other modules containing more than a passing loop or single point I would recommend that the trackwork allows main line trains to run through with out point control being used as when signal boxes are locked out of train control.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Redkiterail

[cromptonnut]

Re phono sockets, I'm concerned that they may not be "man enough" to take a couple of amps which is normal for DCC power. 

 

It would be very tempting to just use a twin male-female extension lead from the pound shop, cut in half and split the cables - rather than "making your own". 

 

If you have (for example) red male and black female at one end, and red female and black male at the other end, ensuring that male to female is one rail and female to male is one rail, then the actual colours (if the board is reversed) shouldn't matter as you'll still get one male and one female making the right connections at the other end?

 

I accept that it's harder with having to get underneath but might not simple screw terminals ("choc blocks") be an easier option?

[peter220950]

Andy:

                                       Red=Left Hand Rail

 looking from here          Sleeper

                                       Black= Right Hand Rail

 

I don't want to be the pain in the b*m of the thread but how does that work with a curved  module that could be used either way 'round?? - Just can't quite understand at present.

[PaulRhB]

Modules do get turned so there's no real need to specify red and black and it's easiest to go for sockets on the layout and jump leads, but not phono leads as they aren't up to the current. Soldering up jump leads is simple as you only need to power up the centre pin not the rings too. I've used 3.5mm phono sockets with 3 amp systems with no problem and would happily solder up jump leads at cost of the parts if anyone was terrified of trying it.

[Kenton]

Thanks Andy - I cannot see any problem from my perspective for the absolutes. But will probably break most recommendation somehow. Certainly with the track position and end width.

 

On the following comments - I do expect the modules to be rotated (yes - even mine) so that makes a nonsense of any wire colour coding.

 

On DCC bus wiring I currently use (30A ring mains) cable that can take 5A DCC control without a problem, is pretty cheap and easily available. On such a big proposed gathering would that be sufficient (I have little experience of DCC boosters or such) would it be wise to set a recommendation for dropper wires as well?

 

Also as it is part of the recommendation - to have a separated local DCC control bus? This avoids potential conflicts if connected to adjacent layouts and keeps local control of accessories if wanted. Of course wire in tube or God's' mitten, slam solenoids or varieties of slowmo servos as per local design are accepted. (same terminals - clearly marked of course)

 

Good - now to start thinking track plans (and if a junction would be too complex - an end plate on the front!)

 

Did we fix a minimum radius?

Edited July 20, 2014 by Kenton

[PaulRhB]

I'd strongly recommend the track power is kept separate to any other functions so yes I'd go for a separate supply even your own dcc controller for the points. It's much easier to trace and fault if it's just the track to trace.

[ZiderHead]

I'd suggest banana plugs/sockets, one for each rail. Decent ones are rated 15A 30VAC (and they are standard for test leads/multimeters, which could come in handy )

 

Decent 1/4" phonos are 15A rated, 1/8" are generally not. They are more expensive, and you still need one for each rail if modules are to be rotated. And guaranteed someone will connect the tip or ring (whichever is wrong for the spec …) 

 

 

Edit: also spec mains cable for all wiring - its cheap as chips and available everywhere.

 

Edited July 20, 2014 by ZiderHead

[Kenton]

While I was throwing some ideas around today - trying to get my head round junction modules - Does there have to a specification for the number of degrees turned in a curve? I'm thinking 30', 45', 60' or 90 or does that make planning the overall layout too difficult? I'm thinking 'Y' shaped junctions.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Kenton

[cromptonnut]

As long as the track is 90 degrees to the end plate, I don't know if it really matters what degree the Y is although personally I'd have though 30 degree curve boards would have given the greatest flexibility for combinations of stuff?

[Andy Y]

As long as the track is 90 degrees to the end plate,

 

Thanks, I knew I'd forgotten something from the absolutes.

 

 

Track ends - all track joins at end of the module should be at 90 degrees to the board end.

[Talltim]

So that's it, that's your proposal ?

25 pages of ideas, discussions, side-taking, arguing, people getting upset, people getting angry, no mention of OLE, no mention of era, of livery, of loco style, nothing about ballast colour, grass colour, grass length even, time of year, part of the country.....

 

I could go on, but I have to ask a fundamental, important question - who's making the fiddle yards ?

If you want fiddle yards, you

You don't actually need fiddle yards

[298]

While I was throwing some ideas around today - trying to get my head round junction modules - Does there have to a specification for the number of degrees turned in a curve? I'm thinking 30', 45', 60' or 90 or does that make planning the overall layout too difficult? I'm thinking 'Y' shaped junctions.

It suppose it depends on the board size, there are some nice 45 degree curves I've seen but they can look odd together because of the 2x 3" straight sections at the module ends. But I don't see why a 90 degree curve on two boards cannot be built, as long as they are used together or as end boards.

 

Something else I thought of for you is if "Kenton-mo" goes for a 18" wide board but with a single track 3" from the edge, a curved adaptor module would add a much needed bend and bring the track back on centre (is sketch what I mean but it's past my bedtime).

[Kenton]

 

The above is for the track itself. Below some for the control bus:

• each module where a train can divert, terminate or stop for operational reasons, a minimum of 2 sockets are provided for the DCC system in use to connect a suitable hand-held controller.
• the builder is allowed to provide such panel(s), suitable for his own DCC system, permanently fixed to the module. If a different system is used, the builder will allow mounting of a suitable panel by temporary means (G-clamps!) to the module. The location for this temporary panel will be determined on a "per event" basis.
• if multiple fixed panels are installed by the builder, it is advised one panel is to be mounted to the rear of the module. The builder is responsible for correctly connecting the panels within the module. This wiring must meet the minimum requirements set by the manufacturer.

Everything in the first part is pretty clear though not happy with "banana" plugs I can evolve round that trivial issue. (not sure what mine are called)

 

The rest particularly provision of DCC control outlets seems very over complicated and confusing and a receipe for errors and complete misunderstanding. I am already aware of many DCC control systems out there and we should assume that there will be problems - I already use 2 different ones and have problems. Shouldn't this be simplified? Are operators really going to be following their assigned locos by plugging and unplugging their handsets? !!!

 

Remember some coming to this party will not be DCC experts - indeed some may well have no knowledge of DCC relying on the forum input to confirm wiring diagrams (Of course any DC layout be wired for DCC to start with - but let's not assume things.)

Edited July 20, 2014 by Kenton

[Talltim]

While I was throwing some ideas around today - trying to get my head round junction modules - Does there have to a specification for the number of degrees turned in a curve? I'm thinking 30', 45', 60' or 90 or does that make planning the overall layout too difficult? I'm thinking 'Y' shaped junctions.

Y shaped? I'm liking your thinking. My personal view is to for whatever angle

suits you, even if it's 41.4 degrees. However. I'm not Andy.

[Stubby47]

We had two fiddle yards on the Taunton module layout this year.

 

One of the fiddle yards didn't work perfectly.

 

I'm not telling who made the fiddle yard....

[cromptonnut]

Of course "any degree angle" is possible however I'd assume that from a layout planner's point of view, random angled bits are much more difficult to plan and lay out, and probably ends up as a less efficient use of space.

[cromptonnut]

Andy, re points, might be useful to decide whether electrofrog or insulfrog points as the 'standard' or whether it's down to the individual.

[PaulRhB]

90° to the end and use a square to check it as your eye isn't good enough I had to adjust mine after the initial test together as I had a definite kink in alignment!

Preferably add a short straight bit at the end too as it eases reverse curves. We had a 3 inch minimum on the freemo but as long as the track is bang on 90° it will work.

Any angle will work as the curve of the module but ones that add up to 90° help fit it in a hall. I built two 45° boards.

 

Now all we need is a target date

Edited July 20, 2014 by PaulRhB

[Clive Mortimore]

Thanks for everyone’s input to the topic so far. It’s apparent to me that to encourage participation that any ‘standards’ should be as relaxed as possible encouraging ‘modules’ (as in a distinct section of contribution to the greater whole) which can be used at home, as a standalone exhibit or as part of a modular meet.

 

What someone does within their module needs to be relaxed rather than too prescriptive but we do need to make sure there are some areas of commonality are presented to enable the models to be joined together. This also means that there’s a place for plain track (straight or curved sections) and functional junctions rather than just stand-alone exhibits and we need a ‘standard’ which encourages participation with simple but immensely useful boards.

 

Initially I had thought that a standardised end boards with bolt holes, electrical holes etc would have been the way to go I can see from the Freemo approach that this would limit the participation of some and even if end boards were technically precise it wouldn’t mean the railhead is absolutely in the correct place.

 

 

Absolutes

 

Gauge – OO, suggest Peco Code 75 as the maximum code with any variations being 'compatible' at the module joints.

 

 

Track Bus – A common standard for interlinking modules, suggestion of 3.5mm phono leads and sockets.

 

Recommendations

 

Board widths at module joints – Matching board widths encourages uniformity of appearance – suggest 18” width, if a ‘module’ is wider or narrower than this it should be ‘blended’ to match at the module joint.

Track centres – if a centre point of the 18” wide board is taken for the track centre this will encourage modules which can be used both ways round in a gathered meeting. For double track module joints the twin track formation (with 50mm centres) should centred on the 18” width.

Hi Andy

 

Cheers for this.

 

Track, does it matter what code track one uses providing the floor to rail top matches the nextdoor module?

 

Connectors, I agree with other comments regarding using banana plugs and sockets might be better.

 

Thinking about the module width at the joint/end. Single track, 18 inch wide board, track at 9inches from the front. Double track as you have suggested when conected to a single track module whould not give a flush front as the track closest to the front will be at 8 inches (approx). I did think if a double track board was 20 inches wide and the front track set at 9 inches, the other track would be 11 inches from the front (approx, 50mm almost being 2 inches) would give a flat front but that would give a staggered back when single track module is connected to a double track one.

[PaulRhB]

Decide whether electrofrog or insulfrog points as the 'standard' or whether it's down to the individual.

Electro frog wired for dcc are best but insulfrog will work fine too, there was a mix on the US layout and had no problem.

[Kenton]

 

Andy, re points, might be useful to decide whether electrofrog or insulfrog points as the 'standard' or whether it's down to the individual.

Surely we don't want to degrade back to that debate? It doesn't matter (in theory) as the module builder needs to make sure the module is DCC compatible and control of points is separate from track bus. Both types of points can be wired to ensure that criteria is met.

 

Of course locos with pickups on only one axle are going to stall on dead frogs (or be raced through) - perpas we need a loco spec - only joking!

[cromptonnut]

Personally I'd prefer "insulfrog or electrofrog", "code 75 or code 100" (as long as the rail tops are flush) as I have a mixture of OO track I can use up.

 

I also assume wooden, concrete or steel flexitrack is perfectly acceptable?  On the basis that we aren't going to be able to (at least I hope) prevent people running mixed era and region stock alongside each other (although I would hope that most modellers would attempt to at least model accurate trains ie not a class 66 pulling private owner wagons) we don't need to stick to wooden sleeper all the way through?

[ZiderHead]

45deg and 90deg … err why? Real railways aren't arranged like that (apart from perhaps US city trams where the city is planned gridiron style).