RMweb Premium James Makin Posted January 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2015 We should also beer in mind that while most modellers will obviously not wish to buy inaccurate models, and notwithstanding the fact that there are lots of modellers who had been looking forward to further Mk3s being released, certain sections of the market won't care about the issue and as such you can see why Hornby will have wished to bring the affected coaches to market and earn some money out of them. I wouldn't have been surprised if Hornby just didn't consider the vents as a big issue, reminds me of the Hornby I know from my youth where certainly they never advised the public that some models were incorrect, I'm thinking mainstream items like the 37, 47, 58, 86, 90, the HST, short Mk3s and numerous wagons where either the model had historical tooling errors or numbers/liveries that didn't take account of prototype detail variations that would make the roof on a buffet car look minor! Hornby never told me as a youngster that my models were wrong and only when becoming more interested in the hobby do you go through the sad learning process that actually your beloved models aren't as good as you once thought!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunedin Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) We use three full sets of Lima HST trailers on Aberdeen Kirkhill, one of which is fitted with flush glazing and really looks superb. I thought long and hard about buying a set of Hornby HST trailers, but decided another Exec set would be useful and liked the fact that they come with flush glazing. The TGS interior has been resolved by fitting one from a spare Lima TGS I remembered I had and I also realised that I had a Jouef buffet. These used the tooling for the TSO/FO roofs which had Roe Vacs, so they were technically incorrect, but the kitchen roof vents were separate items. I'm going to rob these from my Jouef and fit them to the Hornby model. The remaining issue with the roof will be more difficult to solve: Due to it being a standard trailer roof, it has a plenum chamber (the sqaure box in place of the Roe Vacs on the Mark 3a roofs) at both ends, whereas it should be only at the saloon end. I'm still deciding what to do about that: ignore it, see if I can file it off and add the ribs, or try a cut and shut on the roof? Jouef top, Lima midddle and Hornby bottom. I have also noticed that the underframe side-skirt layout in incorrect on the latest Hornby buffet: there should be four sets of battery box access hatches and two battery charging sockets because the buffets had two sets of 110 volt batteries, unlike the other trailers which had one set. The old Lima models were also wrong in this respect, but bizarrely the earlier Hornby examples actually had this detail correct. Admittedly, the underframe is less obvious than the roof, but here again Hornby have regressed! There was earlier mention made of Jouef bogies looking finer. I agree, they do and they are also technically correct in that they are assymetric like on the real BT10: the lateral control rod brackets (vertical bracket outboard of the dampers) are only on one side of the bogie frame and Joef noticed this and modelled it correctly, whereas Lima and Hornby either missed that fact, or more likely chose to ignore it! Side with lateral control rod brackets Side without It would of course be possible to get round this on the Hornby / Lima bogies by simply cutting the brackets off one side of each bogie. Edited January 17, 2015 by Dunedin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarrettTheThief Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I use a mix of Lima and Hornby coaches for my BR Blue, Virgin, FGW Project Rio and GNER rakes, and my MML Pullman rake is exclusively Hornby, so I'm gonna have to do some work. Thankfully, it looks easy enough and I can avoid Hornby Mk3s in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I hope you don't mind me posting this in two threads? Reading Simon Kohler's latest blog while looking through my Mk3s - along with this thread got me thinking, What are the production codes of the newer Mk3s? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92424-hornbys-new-factories-whos-doing-what/ The last Mk3s I have produced by Sanda Kan are the East Coast ones produced for Modelzone, The FGW ones still available in Hamleys are REF / Refined Industries. But a post by Beejack in that thread has the new East Coast Mk3s with lights produced by TEC. Could one of the problems with the inconsistences we're seeing be down to 2 different manufacturers producing the Mk3s for Hornby? My wishey washy FGW Mk3s TS & TF's are REF01-90592, R4370B & REF01-90592,R4369A. Unfortunately I've lost the sleeve for the presumably Sanda Kan produced TGS & TRFB. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhys Underwood Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Yes the TRFB and TGS are both Sanda Kan. They are both marked as SK101-87738. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunedin Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 All the latest ones I have are marked TEC on the boxes. Further to my last post, I've now fitted the vents from my Jouef buffet to the new Hornby TRUB and I reckon they look ok - I think one is the wrong shape, but it's certainly an improvement: I also montioned about the underframes being incorrect on the latest Hornby batch of Hornby buffets (TRUBs), despite them getting earlier batches correct. I don't have any of their earlier buffets, but I discovered that once again, Jouef had this detail correct 30-odd years ago: Jouef - note the two sets of battery boxes and two red charging sockets Hornby latest - only one set of battery boxes and one charging socket I know that the undeframe is not particularly noticeable, but the point is the same as that for the roof: Hornby got it correct on earlier batches and then realised it was wrong, but went ahead and manufactured them anyway, in the hope that no-one would pay enough attention to notice and then priced an incorrect model the same as the others that they could be bothered to get right! That just shows an attitude of cynicism towards us, their customers, that is hard to believe. Hornby would do well to look at the history of many parts of UK industry, not to mention their own past - companies that behave in this way seldom have a bright future. The quote is often attributed to Churchill, but I understand its first use was by George Santayana: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Thanks for those pictures Dunedin, I still find it hard to believe how accurate my 30 year old Jouef Mk3s* are compared to Hornby's latest. I'd find it a right kicking if my 2015 produced model was upstaged by a fairly accurate model produced in the 1970s, Hornby rather obviously doesn't and their attitude in this seems to show! Why Hornby had decided to change the chassis remains a mystery too, presumably changed in the name of standardisation for TEC & REF to manufacture a single Mk3 Chassis from I wonder? And I like the use of the Jouef Mk3 Vents. On balance, it is hard to chose between the Hurst Models cast vents and Jouef's, Jouef's possibly taking the edge for me for being a little less fiddly to deal with - but that is just my personal preference. *Apart from the Roe Vac Vents on the Mk3 TRFB, but at least they have the vent's included! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 What are the silver lines through the corridor windows opposite the buffet counter please? I've not seen these on a coach. Also does anyone have the lima tooled ER 4-window buffet? Is this also missing its vents? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 What are the silver lines through the corridor windows opposite the buffet counter please? I've not seen these on a coach. Leaning rails for standees at the counter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunedin Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Leaning rails for standees at the counter. Leaning rails for standees at the counter. They are, but they should be on the inside! My plan is to remove them - Turtlewax Safecut applied with a cotton bud should do it - and then to glue some wire handrails on the inside of the glazing where they should be. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunedin Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) On balance, it is hard to chose between the Hurst Models cast vents and Jouef's, Jouef's possibly taking the edge for me for being a little less fiddly to deal with - but that is just my personal preference.*Apart from the Roe Vac Vents on the Mk3 TRFB, but at least they have the vent's included! Thanks Surfsup. I agree, it is surprising just how good some those details on the Jouefs really were. We use them on Kirkhill for the Mark 3a push-pull sets. A complete repaint transforms them. As to whether to use the Hurst vents or Jouefs ones, it probably boils down to cost and availability. I know Hurst things can be difficult to get and I don't know the cost. Jouef buffets are available on eBay quite cheaply - in fact there were four buffet roofs on there at the end of last week; buy it now for under £20 which old have made them a no-brainer. Edited January 20, 2015 by Dunedin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic79 Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Also does anyone have the lima tooled ER 4-window buffet? Is this also missing its vents? This isn't missing its vents and has different vents applied to the roof to represent the loco hauled RFM(?) that the coach is loosely modelled on. These are more three dimensional that the original (now missing) vents on the Hornby TRUB. I have no idea if the TRSB vents are the correct size or in the correct location but they do differ to the HST TRUB roof. However, this model started as a Lima TRUB and so the original Lima TRUB vents have been crudely removed from the roof leaving flat spaces i.e. the ridges that run the length of the roof stop and restart where the Lima vents were. This looks strange in my opinion. As an example, this photo shows where one of the small vents has been removed from the tooling: https://railsofsheffield.com/image-handler/full-size.ashx?image=IMG_1610oct14.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted January 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 22, 2015 Hornby's new Mk3 triple pack R4676 has a different buffet - a TSRB - but that does appear to have the correct roof, see http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/product/51005/R4676_Hornby_BR_Mk3_Intercity_Coach_Pack_x_3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Both Kernow and Hattons have this listed higher then the Horny RRP of £79.99 Also why would they make a different buffet for this set? If the problem was with the tooling surely it would have affected this set too? and if not why not release this one as a single? Edited January 22, 2015 by thebritfarmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic79 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Both Kernow and Hattons have this listed higher then the Horny RRP of £79.99 Also why would they make a different buffet for this set? If the problem was with the tooling surely it would have affected this set too? and if not why not release this one as a single? This is identical to R4594 - the same running number 40021 with incorrect blanks on the roof where the Lima TRUB vents have been removed and incorrect "Restaurant-Buffet 125" branding instead of "Buffet-Bar 125" per the prototype. In fact the TS and TGS are the same running numbers as the standard release R4595 and R4634C and all three can be had individually for a cheaper price than the triple pack if you shop around (£94.80 for the three coach individually at Rails, for example, though their triple pack is still priced TBA). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Hornby's new Mk3 triple pack R4676 has a different buffet - a TSRB - but that does appear to have the correct roof, see http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/product/51005/R4676_Hornby_BR_Mk3_Intercity_Coach_Pack_x_3 I've looked at this set in person and it too has the roof blanks like the stand alone car. And with that the only item I was going to purchase from Hornby this year is resigned to the "if only they'd got it right" category. If Hornby want to charge top whack for their items they really should be getting these basic things right. Also if they have any sense they'll dig out the old Lima TSO/TFO tool and turn it into a Mk3a by adjusting the roof and releasing them next year to make the most of Bachmann's upcoming Class 90 and Mk2 DBSO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I messaged Hattons regarding the overpriced three pack. They did look at the Hornby site and stated their RRP was different so they will have someone look into it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunedin Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Today, I managed to remove the glazing on the corridor side of the buffet. I was then able to use Turtlewax Safecut to polish the "handrails" off the outside of the glazing. I've glued a length of wire on the inside of the glazing, where the handrails should be. It doesn't show up particularly well in the photo, but I reckon it looks considerably better than the original. I've also re sprayed the cantrail stripe yellow, so it will now be a 407xx series TRUB in an East Coast set on Aberdeen Kirkhill. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochnagar Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 My four Jouef buffet roofs have arrived off ebay, bargain at £7.99 free p+p. They're dead easy to remove, they just press out from behind as they don't use glue. I predict a rush on Jouef buffet cars! Or at least a shortage of ones with the roof vents still intact...lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
james-htfc Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The First Class MML coaches are currently only £15.99 on the Hornby website with free postage if you buy 2... http://www.Hornby.com/shop/last-chance-to-buy/midland-mainline-mk3-first-class-coach.html Not entirely sure why this is the only one reduced Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The First Class MML coaches are currently only £15.99 on the Hornby website with free postage if you buy 2... http://www.Hornby.com/shop/last-chance-to-buy/midland-mainline-mk3-first-class-coach.html Not entirely sure why this is the only one reduced I wonder then, if Hornby still haven't got the batch size issues right with the Mk3s possibly over producing too many 1sts? Just seems odd that this is the only one reduced. And one of 3 Mk3s where you don't need as many of in any single HST rake - The other's being TGS and Buffet. Just a possible theory anyway! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Today, I managed to remove the glazing on the corridor side of the buffet. I was then able to use Turtlewax Safecut to polish the "handrails" off the outside of the glazing. I've glued a length of wire on the inside of the glazing, where the handrails should be. It doesn't show up particularly well in the photo, but I reckon it looks considerably better than the original. image.jpg I've also re sprayed the cantrail stripe yellow, so it will now be a 407xx series TRUB in an East Coast set on Aberdeen Kirkhill. image.jpg How does the executive light grey compare to your Lima Mk3s? All my Mk3s are Lima but I was thinking of getting a Limby TGS in Executive if the colour matches well Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted January 28, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2015 Re 9-car sets, here's another variation https://www.flickr.com/photos/dodger5450/15448226636 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochnagar Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 New FGW dynamic lines MK3s are now out, Hornby have seen sense and produced a full set A-H to go with the re-released TGS and buffet. All are now out with the exception of the TGS, buffet, and one second which will hopefully follow shortly. The printing isn't as good as previous attempts, (one of mine was returned with the printing at almost 45 degrees on one side!!) but the build quality is much improved over last years releases with ill fitting windows and under frames. The biggest difference is that the new set has tinted glazing, something which has made me sell my old set in favour of these new ones as they just look better IMO. Also the blue/grey four window HST TRSB is out, R4603. This being the same as the wrexham & shropshire buffet made a few years back, modified ex-Lima tooling with the slightly dodgy/modified roof vent arrangement. (if anyone wants one of these I have one spare) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Does anyone know why so many of the 3 packs of ER blue/grey Mk3s without lights are appearing on eBay? I got lucky and picked up one for just under £60 delivered but that seller and another one just keep listing one after the other! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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