LNWR Coach Colour Match

[LNWRNORM]

I am looking to build a LNWR coach in the very near future and am seeking advice on the colours required. I know roughly what the colours are, but is there a definate match available from the paint makers? For example, the main coach colour appears to be Crimson Lake, but in reality this doesnt appear to be dark enough. The top half is white, but appears to be a bluey white to me. It is my intention to brush paint at the moment.

 

I would be very grateful if someone like Larry (Coachman), or anyone who knows their stuff, could nudge me in the right direction.

 

Thanks

Norman

[Penlan]

I would go with the Precision range of paints, there are others out there, but they are a hopeless match.

 

The white does have a blue tinge, in fact back in the 70's when I had some original scrapings it was more like a French grey or duck egg blue.

 

I did a series of photo's about 30 years ago for exhibitions to show the individual colours and then what they looked like all together - the duck egg blue looked white etc., etc.,

 

I think the important thing to remember is that individualy the colours may look wrong but together WITH the lining (I used Humbrol 27 I seem to recall) everything glows......

 

There was a LNWR white put out about 20 years ago by a company in Wales, it looked like GWR cream, completely wrong.

 

This is Larry's beautifully painted LNW coach (from his blog) http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_11_2009/blogentry-6680-12576347331983.jpg

 

The full blog can be viewed at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/blog/310-coachmanns-carriage-blog/

Penlan

[Penlan]

Got back to my own PC now, and well none of the pictures of my own stock seem to do them justice (?) so here's one of the TPO in the NRM at York.

 

Oh and just found an old photo (about 20 years ago) of a trial paint job on a Trevor Charlton etched zinc body, this, I think, shows the sort of primary colour of the white..... Like all things, daylight, tungsten, florescence and now Leds will show up different colours when viewed under anything but the light you painted it in. This shows my method, Purple first to the bottom panels, then the white to the top, then the lining, and finaly putting in the thin purple lines on the beading etc. In 4mm I don't do the white lines to the carriage end and door edges, Larry's a lot better than me, he can do it.... and do it very well.

 

PS - this etched coach was a test piece for paint density, lining bow pens etc, it certainly wouldn't win any prizes bar the wooden spoon.

 

Penlan

[LNWRNORM]

Hi Penlan,

Thanks very much for all that.

In your last post you say purple for the bottom of the coach, is there a precision paint for that and if so what is it called? Doh! just looked at the Precision paints listings, its called LNWR plum isnt it!

I understand from my research some people add a bit of GWR Brown to the Crimson Lake to darken the colour, but I would agree with you that purple or plum seems a closer match to what I am seeing. So an order to Precision paints seem to be the answer.

 

Norman

[Jol Wilkinson]

Hi Penlan,

Thanks very much for all that.

In your last post you say purple for the bottom of the coach, is there a precision paint for that and if so what is it called? Doh! just looked at the Precision paints listings, its called LNWR plum isnt it!

I understand from my research some people add a bit of GWR Brown to the Crimson Lake to darken the colour, but I would agree with you that purple or plum seems a closer match to what I am seeing. So an order to Precision paints seem to be the answer.

 

Norman

 

Norman,

 

using cellulose for the LNWR plum and white is a good idea if you can get it. It gives a good, fast drying, finish and makes correcting slips with the lining pen easier. I wrote up the technique for MRJ 52, many years ago and I think that is the same process that Penlan uses.

 

Spray up a couple of samples (at least 4" x 4")of the PP colours and take them to a local auto paint supplier. They have colour cards that you can match to your panels.

 

I've recently seen a chart showing colours available from Halfords that include the LNWR coach colours. However, I don't know how "accurate" these are.

 

Jol Wilkinson

[Penlan]

Jol

 

I was going to refer to your very useful article, but as I couldn't put my hand to it and the 'signalbox' Excel MRJ listings are no longer available, I couldn't give the reference.

 

Struth.... MRJ 52, that's a long ago, I'm really passing Time by quickly these days.

 

Penlan

[coachmann]

In March 1996, David Jenkinson gave me a paint panel specially prepared for me by Williamsons. It contains the colours used in the painting of LNWR coaches as follows:

 

Carmine Lake... SP7877

Flake White.......SP7879

Lining Yellow.....SP7930

 

Note these are not the official names given to the colours by the LNWR company.

 

I have scanned the panel and within the vagaries of scanning, colour fidelity and repro by different PC screens, it might give you some idea...

 

Taking the white line as a base point, you can see how much darker than white the 'flake white' is.

 

I mix the LNWR 'plum' in cellulose using Midland/LMS Lake and black.

 

I mix the 'flake white' from white (not todays brilliant white!), a touch of dark blue (GER), and the merest touch of chrome yellow.

 

The lining yellow I mix from chrome yellow, red and the merest touch of black.

 

Using model paints, the Royal Train plum is pretty close, but eggshell finish paints are the kiss of death on coaches.

 

Hope this assists,

Larry G.

[Penlan]

Larry

 

Many thanks for the panel, this is similar to the one I had many years ago, it surprises people just how far from white the LNWR flake white is when set next to 'proper' white.

 

Penlan

[LNWRNORM]

Thanks to all of you for this information, and especially thanks to Larry for the paint panel. I now have several ideas and leads to follow to try and achieve the colour match.

 

Norman

 

 

[Flymo748]

I was going to refer to your very useful article, but as I couldn't put my hand to it and the 'signalbox' Excel MRJ listings are no longer available, I couldn't give the reference.

 

I don't know what Excel listing of MRJ articles you were referring to, but there is an alternative available:

 

http://www.modelrailwayjournal.com/

 

The product of a lot of hard work by a chap called Matt Ots (I don't recall if he's on this place or not), he's also recently put a similar index of the Great Western Journal online.

 

I find them absolutely invaluable.

 

HTH

Flymo

[Penlan]

Now I've managed to access my own PC, it was actually www.thesignalworks.co.uk however the web site owner I believe retired recently and the last update issue covered was MRJ 184.

 

The above web site is now closed down. For those of us who still live in the age of DOS, doing searches on spreadsheets is something we find easy, and the above Excel sheet could be referred to off line too, if you had downloaded the Excel spreadsheet(s), however having had a look at the MRJ by Matt Ots I can see it's a useful online tool, and I concede it digs deeper than the Excel version I had.

 

Thank you for bringing this site to my attention, again because I'm sure it's been refered to before, I'm just a bit slow at times......

 

Apart from Jol's article in MRJ, there was also an extensive article by Chris Gwilliam in the February and March 1997 'Modelling Railways Illustrated'.

 

Penlan

[bluestag]

I cannot say how happy I am to have found this thread!   I own a copy of MRJ 52, and to see Jol Wilkinson participating is especially exciting.

 

I am at a disadvantage, as I am a Yank living in LA, so there are few enough (none that I know of) LNWR enthusiasts locally.    That blueish white in no way says "spilt milk" to me!    But I am ready to buy into it.

 

I have a total of 9 Ratio coaches.   Years ago I bought two off Ebay and was disappointed at what I received.   The Plum and White look very much to have been applied with a brush, there certainly are lots of inclusions.    Not the perfectly flat smooth panels one needs to make an effective presentation/

 

I won three more, unstarted kits recently.   Which moved me to dig up the first two.    Heavens.   I was astonished to find that one had quite well executed lining on it.   It had clearly suffered in handling.   But it was done to a pretty fair standard.    Pity about the inclusions.   But I will hold on to it until I have finished my newly aquired kits.   Which include four that I just won today.

 

They all together might not make the most sensible combination for a rake of coaches, but I don't intend to fret about that exessively.

 

I'd really appreciate getting into a chat with someone who has built a few of these.    I am not wild about the idea of trimming off the grab rail or door knobs, as I have so many to build.

 

And while it has nothing whatever to do with finishing or painting, how about bogies?    There is a discussion elsewhere.   Bill Bedford's must be the penultimate approach, being leaf sprung on each axle and secondarily sprung between the bogie and the coaches.   With a bit of weight, I expect they must run brilliantly.

 

Not that I expect to have anywhere to run them anytime soon.    I'll likely build the kit bodies as offered with the wheels of the kit, and just put them on display in a case, with a loco that I have yet to build.

 

I expect to build a fixture to hold the sides, which would allow me to lay a square down across the side without touching it, to allow the rulling pens to get at it.

 

Anyway.   If anyone has advice on building these, I would certainly appreciate hearing about it.

[Barry O]

Bluestag

 

try PMing Nicktoix on here as he has built a fair few LNWR coaches over the years...

[Stanley Melrose]

Not sure if this will be of any use but I recently redecorated our kitchen and my wife wanted the same colour applied as previously.  We went to B&Q (on a Wednesday to get the 10% off!) clutching a piece of ply that I had painted with some of the left-over paint (after checking that it still matched what was on the walls).  We used their rack of swatches to select what we thought was the closest match and took it to the counter to have fresh paint mixed.  Seeing my piece of ply the lady took it from me and put it into a device on the counter explaining that she could use this to determine exactly what she should blend to make an exact match.  So, if someone has a sample of suitable paint, there is a device that can be used to replicate it.  Of course, painting models in eggshell emulsion may not be much good but it seems B&Q now sell Valspar paints using their mixing facility and it could be that other types of paints (in small sample pots) could be suitable.

 

HTH,

 

Stan

In March 1996, David Jenkinson gave me a paint panel specially prepared for me by Williamsons. It contains the colours used in the painting of LNWR coaches as follows:

Carmine Lake... SP7877
Flake White.......SP7879
Lining Yellow.....SP7930

Note these are not the official names given to the colours by the LNWR company.

I have scanned the panel and within the vagaries of scanning, colour fidelity and repro by different PC screens, it might give you some idea...
WEB LNWR coach colors.jpg

Taking the white line as a base point, you can see how much darker than white the 'flake white' is.

I mix the LNWR 'plum' in cellulose using Midland/LMS Lake and black.

I mix the 'flake white' from white (not todays brilliant white!), a touch of dark blue (GER), and the merest touch of chrome yellow.

The lining yellow I mix from chrome yellow, red and the merest touch of black.

Using model paints, the Royal Train plum is pretty close, but eggshell finish paints are the kiss of death on coaches.

Hope this assists,
Larry G.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I cannot say how happy I am to have found this thread!   I own a copy of MRJ 52, and to see Jol Wilkinson participating is especially exciting.

 

I am at a disadvantage, as I am a Yank living in LA, so there are few enough (none that I know of) LNWR enthusiasts locally.    That blueish white in no way says "spilt milk" to me!    But I am ready to buy into it.

 

I have a total of 9 Ratio coaches.   Years ago I bought two off Ebay and was disappointed at what I received.   The Plum and White look very much to have been applied with a brush, there certainly are lots of inclusions.    Not the perfectly flat smooth panels one needs to make an effective presentation/

 

I won three more, unstarted kits recently.   Which moved me to dig up the first two.    Heavens.   I was astonished to find that one had quite well executed lining on it.   It had clearly suffered in handling.   But it was done to a pretty fair standard.    Pity about the inclusions.   But I will hold on to it until I have finished my newly aquired kits.   Which include four that I just won today.

 

They all together might not make the most sensible combination for a rake of coaches, but I don't intend to fret about that exessively.

 

I'd really appreciate getting into a chat with someone who has built a few of these.    I am not wild about the idea of trimming off the grab rail or door knobs, as I have so many to build.

 

And while it has nothing whatever to do with finishing or painting, how about bogies?    There is a discussion elsewhere.   Bill Bedford's must be the penultimate approach, being leaf sprung on each axle and secondarily sprung between the bogie and the coaches.   With a bit of weight, I expect they must run brilliantly.

 

Not that I expect to have anywhere to run them anytime soon.    I'll likely build the kit bodies as offered with the wheels of the kit, and just put them on display in a case, with a loco that I have yet to build.

 

I expect to build a fixture to hold the sides, which would allow me to lay a square down across the side without touching it, to allow the rulling pens to get at it.

 

Anyway.   If anyone has advice on building these, I would certainly appreciate hearing about it.

I've only built one Ratio LNWR 50' carriage so far. I bought a kit from an acquaintance with the sides already painted. 

 

I've got a bit of a problem with the Ratio kits as I am not yet sure the best way to go about building them. I prefer a model where the body and or roof are removable from the underframe as it makes for easier painting and glazing. Sometime over the winter I'll see what I can do with one. Use a "slow" solvent/glue such as Limonene. Butanone seems to cause shrinkage and bowing.

 

I also have a slight reservation about painting - or rather lining - them. The technique outlined in MRJ 52 works well on etched brass coach sides but I've had problems when I've tried it on the Ratio sides. I think it's because the moulding on an etched kit has "sharp" edges, whereas the Ratio moulding has rounded (at the microscopic level) edges. The paint from the bow pen seems more inclined to fall off the edges.

 

As for suitable paint, you may be able to find something at a local auto paint supplier if you are spray painting. Print off one of the photos posted above (Coachman's post #7 looks about right) and ask to compare with their colour chart samples. The white had blue added to it to counteract the effect of the varnish "yellowing" so I prefer to go for a white with less blue in it.

 

Jol

[bluestag]

Jol,

 

It seems obvious to me that the sides are to be painted, lined, tranfers applied, and varnished before being built onto the rest of the body.

 

I intend to make a fixture for the sides.    A bit of good quality cabinet plywood, and four strips of bass wood or other hard wood, defining tightly the outline of the sides.   Drill a few holes where the back of the sides would lie to allow you to push the sides out of this cradle.    Then I have parallel lines to the top and bottom of the coach side, which would allow me to lay a small engineer's square over it to guide the ruling pen or the bow pen.

 

I'm optimistic about spraying, and I am disinclined to use a rattlecan.    I don't trust them.    I have a basic air brush and a compressor.    If the airbrush does not get it done, I will simply buy a better quality brush.

 

I am pretty sure I have see the plum in gloss enamel that will get the job done.   The bluish white is antother question.

[bluestag]

Jol,

 

While we are chatting, any suggestions as to who would have steel buffer heads and springs, assuming that I wanted to fire up the lathe?

[jwealleans]

Are you in 4mm?  Try Wizard Models, he does heads and springs of varying sizes (as well as some LNWR coach buffers IIRC).

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jol,

 

It seems obvious to me that the sides are to be painted, lined, tranfers applied, and varnished before being built onto the rest of the body.

 

I intend to make a fixture for the sides.    A bit of good quality cabinet plywood, and four strips of bass wood or other hard wood, defining tightly the outline of the sides.   Drill a few holes where the back of the sides would lie to allow you to push the sides out of this cradle.    Then I have parallel lines to the top and bottom of the coach side, which would allow me to lay a small engineer's square over it to guide the ruling pen or the bow pen.

 

I'm optimistic about spraying, and I am disinclined to use a rattlecan.    I don't trust them.    I have a basic air brush and a compressor.    If the airbrush does not get it done, I will simply buy a better quality brush.

 

I am pretty sure I have see the plum in gloss enamel that will get the job done.   The bluish white is antother question.

 

I am more inclined to look at building the sides and ends as a box (much like an etched kt) with perhaps one internal full width partition in place. Although I have done it, I am not too keen on gluing ready painted sides to ends with solvents. I plan to bolt the body to the under frame and perhaps bolt the roof on too. 

 

Your lining jig sounds okay, but make sure that you can easily get to the top and bottom horizontal beading.

 

I would recommend a good single action airbrush - I use a Badger 200 that I have had for years. The cheap external mix ones are not much good, although the Paasche range of external mix types have a very good reputation.

 

As for buffers, in addition to Wizard as JW mentions, there is also Alan Gibson. If your kits have the turned brass buffers, these can be easily adapted with a lathe to take the turned heads and springs. I think the later kits may have gone over to white metal.

[Ravenser]

I cannot say how happy I am to have found this thread!   I own a copy of MRJ 52, and to see Jol Wilkinson participating is especially exciting.

 

I am at a disadvantage, as I am a Yank living in LA, so there are few enough (none that I know of) LNWR enthusiasts locally.    That blueish white in no way says "spilt milk" to me!    But I am ready to buy into it.

 

I have a total of 9 Ratio coaches.   Years ago I bought two off Ebay and was disappointed at what I received.   The Plum and White look very much to have been applied with a brush, there certainly are lots of inclusions.    Not the perfectly flat smooth panels one needs to make an effective presentation/

 

I won three more, unstarted kits recently.   Which moved me to dig up the first two.    Heavens.   I was astonished to find that one had quite well executed lining on it.   It had clearly suffered in handling.   But it was done to a pretty fair standard.    Pity about the inclusions.   But I will hold on to it until I have finished my newly aquired kits.   Which include four that I just won today.

 

They all together might not make the most sensible combination for a rake of coaches, but I don't intend to fret about that exessively.

 

I'd really appreciate getting into a chat with someone who has built a few of these.    I am not wild about the idea of trimming off the grab rail or door knobs, as I have so many to build.

 

And while it has nothing whatever to do with finishing or painting, how about bogies?    There is a discussion elsewhere.   Bill Bedford's must be the penultimate approach, being leaf sprung on each axle and secondarily sprung between the bogie and the coaches.   With a bit of weight, I expect they must run brilliantly.

 

Not that I expect to have anywhere to run them anytime soon.    I'll likely build the kit bodies as offered with the wheels of the kit, and just put them on display in a case, with a loco that I have yet to build.

 

I expect to build a fixture to hold the sides, which would allow me to lay a square down across the side without touching it, to allow the rulling pens to get at it.

 

Anyway.   If anyone has advice on building these, I would certainly appreciate hearing about it.

 

 

I've built two, but not in LNWR livery , and I built them very much as they came , since they were a first essay in coach kitbuilding. You are evidently aiming for a higher standard, but in OO at least, I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with the Ratio bogies . Both my kits had turned brass buffers though the shanks are very thin . I painted the sides before building, and weighted them to just over 100g

 

Details in my blog here, though I suspect you are aiming much higher:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/296-on-ravensers-bookcase/?st=5

 

(Look through all entries referencing Set 1)

 

I'm surprised how rarely we see these kits on layouts, given that they seem to have lasted to 1953 or so

Edited September 4, 2013 by Ravenser

[bluestag]

Jol,

 

Yes, I do have a Paasche air brush which I purchased decades ago.   I have never mastered it.    And I do not intend that these coach sides be the FIRST thing I spray with it!

[woodbine]

It was mentioned above that matt is an undesirable finish for coach paint, for which I can see several reasons, specifically applying a nice lining and the transfers. At an exhibition yesterday I bought some Phoenix Precision LNWR coach plum and white, and it was only available in matt in the 14ml tinlets (I only have one coach to do), which is confirmed by a visit to the manufacturer's website. How do we get around that?

Second question, which I have not been able to find answers for, is what colour to use for the red/brown window edges?

[Jol Wilkinson]

I thought PPP did it in dull (satin) finish, which would be better.

 

However, I would recommend cellulose paint, which is available from Chris Wesson (look for him on the Martin Finney website).

Edited April 19, 2015 by LNWRmodeller

[woodbine]

I thought PPP did it in dull (satin) finish, which would be better.

 

However, I would recommend cellulose paint, which is available from Chris Wesson (look for him on the Martin Finney website).

 

Thanks for that. I was assuming dull = matt, but as dull = satin that'll do.

I don't think I want to try cellulose on my first excursion into airbrush and away from Halfords cans.

I have googled myself senseless trying to find an online painting scheme that includes reference to the window edges and the "blank panel" blue/grey for my coach, to no avail. If someone could point me in the right direction I'd be grateful.

The coach in question is a London Road Models LNWR 26' 6w Milk Van. The painting instructions that come with it say "Paint and line for the period modelled"

[Jol Wilkinson]

Cellulose is good because it dries quickly and you are less likely to get dust, etc.  trapped in it. It can be sprayed to give a gloss finish which is better for transfers. It is also good for lining with enamels as mistakes are more readily removed or corrected. AS it is a good idea to varnish the model to protect the transfers, then you can use a satin varnish to get the final effect.

 

Ian Rathbones book on Paining and Lining (WSP) is a very good guide. Alternatively MRJ 52 describes a good approach to lining out LNWR carriages, available from the Titfield Thunderbolt Bookshop for £2.00.

 

http://titfield.co.uk/WildSwan/WSR_MRJ.htm

 

Drop-lights were varnished mahogany so a dark red/brown is ideal for that. I use something slightly darker for the Bolections around fixed windows..

 

By "blank panel" do you mean the slate panels in the doors. A dark blue/grey would be correct for those. Do these help?

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2015 by LNWRmodeller