runs as required Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 no idea {about legality of manipulating web image searches} - Not sure how the copyright is for personal use, bit permission would be needed for commercial I consultated a leading British IP lawyer about this a couple of years ago. His opinion was that a precedent was the widespread use of 'sampling' of previous recordings in the music industry to create new material. So I do searches to download a multiplicity of images then build orthogonal plans/sections/elevations by manipulating parts of the images and collaging them together in Photoshop. Overall dimensions can be verified from Google Maps or from published specifications for rolling stock and vehicles. A CAD drawing can be created by importing the new raster image then tranforming it into a vector file. There has been software in existance for some years now that will do this automatically from a couple of threequarter views (for example of interior Library views of the Glasgow School of Art destroyed by fire learlier in the year). I change things like vehicle identification numbers or names on buildings just to be safe. However I stopped posting my stuff on a parallel website because the new American owners were wary of IP implications that vary across 50 states of the USA ! dhig {edit for typos] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 I consultated a leading British IP lawyer about this a couple of years ago. His opinion was that a precedent was the widespread use of 'sampling' of previous recordings in the music industry to create new material. So I do searches to download a multiplicity of images then build orthogonal plans/sections/elevations by manipulating parts of the images and collaging them together in Photoshop. Overall dimensions can be verified from Google Maps or from published specifications for rolling stock and vehicles. A CAD drawing can be created by importing the new raster image then tranforming it into a vector file. There has been software in existance for some years now that will do this automatically from a couple of threequarter views (for example of interior Library views of the Glasgow School of Art destroyed by fire learlier in the year). I change things like vehicle identification numbers or names on buildings just to be safe. However I stopped posting my stuff on a parallel website because the new American owners were wary of IP implications that vary across 50 states of the USA ! dhig {edit for typos] Hi RasR That's really useful to know. I am not good at photoshop - just basic cut/crop and pasting. Would that suffice? Kindest, CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
runs as required Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 I am not good at photoshop - just basic cut/crop and pasting. Would that suffice? Basic cut/crop and pasting is where we all started. The life changing manipulation stuff is on the 'edit' menu under 'transform'. I like fiddling around with 'perspective', 'skew' and 'scale' to pull threequarter views towards adaptation into elevations (or vice versa) - and I tick 'rulers' on the view tab and use 'guidelines' to keep things plumb. Have a go........ dhig PS I loved your link to the Darjeeling loco and the Canon stuff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornamuse Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Thank you! I have had to get pretty good on music copyright, being a composer/arranger and assumed that everything else was just as horrific I tend to go with the maxim of "its not allowed" and then work from there ) All mine have been done on publisher, although I am now starting to use the Silhouette software for the cutter. however, I tend to work from side views. I have used skew and so on with photoshop, but still imported into publisher, because I am weird and also too lazy to teach myself photoshop Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfsboy Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Does anybody remember Micromodel Trains? We used to 'run' them on huge sheets of paper, usually the plain side of wall paper and had quite sizable 'layouts'. Brian. Yes and HMS Amethyst blowing them up .From memory there wasnt too much a kid could afford in the 50's after Dinky Toys ,and later Matchbox Toys ,Veron aircraft kits and Triang took their large share of pocket ,birthday and Christmas money .I used to love Micromodels and had a redux when the shop I worked for in the 70's bought up all the old stock that was left though it didnt include all the titles.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornamuse Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Ok, so back to the original thrust of the thread- a card loco kit. How card are we talking about? motion and wheels too? Does it need to move? I need an early loco (1840s -1860s) for my current project - maybe a Nielson box tank and a planet type - want both to be predominantly card Both have the advantage of being small and light, meaning that the card should be strong enough. Any other ideas? A nice little early Victorian industrial would be pretty versatile, wouldn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Ok, so back to the original thrust of the thread- a card loco kit. How card are we talking about? motion and wheels too? Does it need to move? I need an early loco (1840s -1860s) for my current project - maybe a Nielson box tank and a planet type - want both to be predominantly card Both have the advantage of being small and light, meaning that the card should be strong enough. Any other ideas? A nice little early Victorian industrial would be pretty versatile, wouldn't it? Hi, The purists - as far as card modelling is concerned - would argue use card, virtually, throughout. IMHO, I believe that a bit of plastic tube for the boiler, proprietary fittings/details and wheels are the order of the day, so playing to the strengths of each medium used. Kindest, CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beatty 139 Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 I have just produced a planet diesel in Gauge one from Rowmark and plasticard, not card, card I know but much the same principles I did my one using my Laser and cameo cutter but I did cheat in so far as vacuum forming the bonnet and roof. the build in on the industrial's threads. I can't see why the same wouldn't work in card but the tab and slot construction would need some adjustment. A gentleman called Fred Newman used to build the most wonderful G1 coaches in card many of which are still running as prize possessions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim Read Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Hello all, Can't see the reason for all this techie caper at all; get a drawing, if you can't convert it to 7mm scale measure a known dimension and work out a multiplier for the differences, draw the item on card and cut it out, if you make a mistake do it again. Boilers can be made from cartridge paper, cling film around some smaller tube soak the paper in diluted white glue wrap it around to the right diameter leave it to dry slide it off, shellac it and there's your boiler and very strong they are too. Chimney's and safety valves can be made from sections of those cheap wooden paint brushes with thin paper wrapped round and fillets of Seccotine to form the curved bits. By the time you've pithered with the software and forgotten to leave allowances for the this that and the other you could have made two locos! If anyone would like the drawing for my Y7 please send me your email address through the site. My Y7, in this pic the chimney is too thick so I made another one a bit thinner. Cheers - Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Hi Jim, It's a result of all these new fangled toys - kids being brought up on Lego, instead of Meccano, I reckon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 I have just produced a planet diesel in Gauge one from Rowmark and plasticard, not card, card I know but much the same principles I did my one using my Laser and cameo cutter but I did cheat in so far as vacuum forming the bonnet and roof. the build in on the industrial's threads. I can't see why the same wouldn't work in card but the tab and slot construction would need some adjustment. A gentleman called Fred Newman used to build the most wonderful G1 coaches in card many of which are still running as prize possessions. That sound great - any photos? Hello all, Can't see the reason for all this techie caper at all; get a drawing, if you can't convert it to 7mm scale measure a known dimension and work out a multiplier for the differences, draw the item on card and cut it out, if you make a mistake do it again. Boilers can be made from cartridge paper, cling film around some smaller tube soak the paper in diluted white glue wrap it around to the right diameter leave it to dry slide it off, shellac it and there's your boiler and very strong they are too. Chimney's and safety valves can be made from sections of those cheap wooden paint brushes with thin paper wrapped round and fillets of Seccotine to form the curved bits. By the time you've pithered with the software and forgotten to leave allowances for the this that and the other you could have made two locos! If anyone would like the drawing for my Y7 please send me your email address through the site. My Y7, in this pic the chimney is too thick so I made another one a bit thinner. Cheers - Jim Nice work Jim! For me a CAD and Cutter would help me to cut straight lines to scale (ha ha!)! Those of my mates who are CAD jockeys keep on at me to learn CAD as it would help my model-making, but it has to be said I am still 'old skool' too (as they say in 'yuff' parlance!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beatty 139 Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 That sound great - any photos? For me a CAD and Cutter would help me to cut straight lines to scale (ha ha!)! Those of my mates who are CAD jockeys keep on at me to learn CAD as it would help my model-making, but it has to be said I am still 'old skool' too (as they say in 'yuff' parlance!). I have found that CAD has it's place, like all things It wasn't more than 15 years ago I said that CAD would never catch on and as an Engineer I would always be quicker on the drawing board than a Cad operator, to some degree I think that's true however CAD brings other benefits. I have always avoided Plastikard as a daymare to work with and much preferred card and ply but with the advent of either laser cutters and plotting type cutters it's opened up a materiel for me that I would not have used before. development of my little G1 planet shunter this could have quite easily been done in card, the next project will be a 1920's 8 ton simple made in same way or a Birkenhead docks 0-6-0 Hudswell Clarke that would need an metallic chassis,but top works made in a similar manner. I don't think with the extra forces in G1 that anything else would take the forces involved for a larger loco that's designed to move more than just a few wagons. Many years ago as a teenager I built a number of if I remember correctly Salford Models kits, these were for 16mm scale narrow gauge and came as printed sheets of plactikard you cut out then added details to. They made nice little models and the advantage was you could photocopy the sheets make plaster moulds off the white metal parts and then build as many as you liked! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted September 29, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 29, 2014 Roger at Alphagraphix produces several small/industrial card loco kits such as a Terrier, Manning Waddle & Bournville Avonside, I have bought several but yet to build any, they would need a working chassis.Detail is basic. Should have put them in my hand luggage for Canada as I've no tools & nothing to make here (yet). Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesperus Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Wagon kit? Where is it? I'd like to take a looksie! Give this a go.http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/47662-card-rolling-stock/page-7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornamuse Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Ok, have made a start at last. Serious modellers, please look away The loco is to be a tank loco, based on the Neilson Piano Tanks, with the rather sexy ogee tanks. However, it would probably best be described as freelance I can't afford driving wheel right now, so what I have done is used the paper cutter to produce some inserts for Slater's waggon wheels. that also includes having the hole cut ready for the pin to hold the coupling rods, so I can be sure it all lines up. Looking at the wheelbase of around 5', and trying to work out how to cheat and cut costs, it occurred that good old Smokey Joe has a 33mm wheelbase, so I set it at that to make it possible to use the coupling rods off an old chassis I had kicking around. The motor and gears are off an old Hornby Pug. Chassis is also made on the paper cutter, to make sure all is square and the bearings line up exactly. They are laminated out of 4 levels of card and pretty rigid. The whole makes up into a solid little structure. It could have brass bearings, but I don't have any, so I will see if card will suffice! To my shock and delight, it went together first time and rolls very sweetly. Now need to produce a footplate to add to the strength and see what occurs when I connect the motor up. Are we happy with this as cardboard engineering? Wheels from card as well would be easy enough, but I am looking for a working loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexible_coupling Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I like the idea cornamuse... I have a set of the same wheels sitting unused. I'd like to have some bearings first, as I fear that card alone won't stand as a bearing surface... and a motor and gearset on hand.... but I'm inspired to consider trying myself! Perhaps a diesel instead for myself though, where I can elevate the motor and primary worm/gear and drop a chain drive down to the axle to permit a higher reduction on relatively small wheels. Actually.... taking the idea a tad further, perhaps I can consider my first trial of a nylon chopping board cut and used as a chassis material? No bearings required, hmm..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 The use of wagon/coach wheels for a locomotive isn't new. There was an article way back in about 1985 about scratch-building a steam locomotive for less than 50 pounds or something like that. It was based on a 0-6-0 Manning Wardle Contractor's Locomotive, used PCB sheets for the chassis and mostly used plasticard for the body. After looking at the Tower Models Barclay kit, I bought some 1" Aluminium U-channel with 3mm thick sides. I have a pillar drill, and figure that I can probably make something quite similar with only these basic tools. I'm yet to do it though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexible_coupling Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I've just resurfaced after a rummage through the scraps box...... significantly smaller scraps box than when I was younger - oh for the things I had on hand back then! I did find a working HO scale 80's central-can-motor loco (possibly a Life-Like?) chassis with a lot of bits broken off.... however, lurking within is the components for a nicely reduced (probably close to 40:1) gearbox and motor. I had a fairly quick and slap-dash attempt (with surprising but not total success) at adapting a Slaters wagon axle on the damaged bogie tower - I'm encouraged enough to take a lot more time and care with the not-broken tower from the other end of the loco; if I succeed, then I have an assembled and operational gearbox on an axle, which for me is the hard part, pending the remainder of a loco being built... The bug has been caught. Perhaps I'll knock up a card/craft plywood Y6 body with some poetic license? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornamuse Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Just been playing around with getting the motor running, and the main problem so far is the quartering - all my previous forays have been tram locos, so there hasn't been an issue about coupling rods. Need to have a good think about getting the accuracy needed - it rolled ok without the motor, but is not happy at all being driven. Anyone know when tramway regulations came into force? I would like the get out clause of just putting skirts round the whole lot, because it runs nicely without the coupling rods! If anyone wants a PDF of the inserts for the wagon wheels, just let me know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 If you can lay your hands on the Bachmann On30 Streetcar, you can fit Slaters wagon axles to it for a cheap Motor bogie. The wheelbase is 6'6" in 1:48 scale, which is just shy of 6'0" in 1:43.5 scale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornamuse Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Managed to get everything rolling this morning, yay seems it needed just the right amount of slack and the motor mounting at an angle chassis running tiny.wmv Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 I find it funny that no matter how precisely you think you may engineer these things, a certain "slop factor" is still needed to ensure that it runs properly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 photo(196).JPG Excellent model. Could this be rescaled for O gauge? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beatty 139 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 It could but the materials thicknesses would need down sizing and you move out of the range of what's laserable and fully into the world of plastikard, going up would be the easier option which is why I have been half tempted to build one in Gauge 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 It could but the materials thicknesses would need down sizing and you move out of the range of what's laserable and fully into the world of plastikard, going up would be the easier option which is why I have been half tempted to build one in Gauge 3 Consider this a pre-order for a 7mm one if we can persuade you to do it. I don't mind having to buy plastikard strips to finish it if you hit the problem with parts being too small to laser-cut. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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