Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[St Enodoc]

Argh, dumbing down hits Mid Cornwall with 'pass' ( a proper railway timetabling term) turning into 'non-stop' (wot passengers was told as they asked about trains)   .   Rolling within graves takes place in numerous cemeteries as antipodean terminology takes hold beyond the Tamar  

 

(talking of which if holiday plans go to plan we shall be crossing said river next week - however the last time we were told to go to Penzance it was altered to Weymouth at two days notice and instead of disembarking in Swansea we ended up going ashore in Greenock)

 

And for the loop numbers  - a simple (proper) prefix such as PDN for - well you know.  And, of course, PZE for the others ?

Guilty as charged, O Lord High Chief Operating Manager. I was expecting you to say that to be honest! At the risk of upsetting my operating team, there seemed to be some confusion today with the term "Pass" being interpreted as an abbreviation for "Passenger". I've changed it in the spreadsheets for now, but like you I would prefer to use the correct term. So, once we have had a few more sessions, I might change it back surreptitiously. It doesn't help that Porthmellyn Road station platforms are just two offcuts of 18 mm ply at the moment, although they are graced by the former Treheligan Junction station buildings.

 

Regarding the loops, they are at present identified by the relevant abbreviations (two-letter not three-letter), namely PD and PZ. The jury is still out on this one.

 

Edited for spelling.

Edited July 15, 2017 by St Enodoc

[St Enodoc]

Right - 1948 Freight Marshalling (alphabetical order of starting point), Section B starting stations only so basically Bristol, Exeter and Plymouth Districts -

 

21.55 Bristol West Depot - Penzance, Class C, Engine power group DX  Max load 45 wagons in Cornwall.  Par traffic marshalled rear from Bodmin Road connects 04.40 Par to St Blazey, 07.03 and 07.25 Passr trains Par to Newquay, 08.20 StBZ to St Dennis

 

19.18 Drump Lane - Bristol, Class C. Engine power group DX.  Cattle wagons for Highbridge formed on the engine (if any running).  Does not call at Par, Newquay branch traffic via Truro.

 

17.05 Marazion - Oxley, Class C, Engine pg DX.  All non-vac marshalled rear.  Does not call at Par.

 

14.50 Penzance - Paddington, Class C, Engine pg D (47XX from Laira).  Load 45 wagons in Cornwall, livestock marshalled in the non-vac section rear.  Not to convey between Penzance and Paddington wagons with axleboxes packed with horsehair or waste.  Does not call at Par.

 

19.45 Penzance - Plymouth,  Class J, Engine pg D.  Calls at Par - no feeding trains noted.  Traffic added to be marshalled as per segregations on train.

 

00.45 MX/01.10 MO Plymouth - Penzance, Class D, Engine pg D.  Calls at Par - connecting freight trains as noted for 21.55 Bristol WD.  Par traffic marshalled between approx between vac and non-vac sections.

 

22.30 St Blazey - Tavistock Jcn, Class J, Engine pg E (42XX)

 

 

01.40 Tavistock Jcn - Penzance, Class J, Engine pg D.  Does not call at par, Newquay traffic via Truro.

 

07.00  Tavistock Jcn - Penzance, Class E, Engine pg D. Does not call at Par.

 

09.25 Tavistock Jcn - St Austell, Class J, Engine pg D (51XX).  Par traffic formed front on arrival, no connecting trains noted.

 

N.B.  All clay empties for terminals. sidings etc on the area were routed via St Blazey  There must have been a tavistock Jcn - St Blazey return working for the 42XX but it isn't shown in the Marshalling Instructions.

Excellent Mike, thank you very much. I will correlate that list with my 1952 STT to enhance the authenticity of my freight workings.

[BenL]

Right - 1948 Freight Marshalling (alphabetical order of starting point), Section B starting stations only so basically Bristol, Exeter and Plymouth Districts -

 

21.55 Bristol West Depot - Penzance, Class C, Engine power group DX  Max load 45 wagons in Cornwall.  Par traffic marshalled rear from Bodmin Road connects 04.40 Par to St Blazey, 07.03 and 07.25 Passr trains Par to Newquay, 08.20 StBZ to St Dennis

 

19.18 Drump Lane - Bristol, Class C. Engine power group DX.  Cattle wagons for Highbridge formed on the engine (if any running).  Does not call at Par, Newquay branch traffic via Truro.

 

17.05 Marazion - Oxley, Class C, Engine pg DX.  All non-vac marshalled rear.  Does not call at Par.

 

14.50 Penzance - Paddington, Class C, Engine pg D (47XX from Laira).  Load 45 wagons in Cornwall, livestock marshalled in the non-vac section rear.  Not to convey between Penzance and Paddington wagons with axleboxes packed with horsehair or waste.  Does not call at Par.

 

19.45 Penzance - Plymouth,  Class J, Engine pg D.  Calls at Par - no feeding trains noted.  Traffic added to be marshalled as per segregations on train.

 

00.45 MX/01.10 MO Plymouth - Penzance, Class D, Engine pg D.  Calls at Par - connecting freight trains as noted for 21.55 Bristol WD.  Par traffic marshalled between approx between vac and non-vac sections.

 

22.30 St Blazey - Tavistock Jcn, Class J, Engine pg E (42XX)

 

 

01.40 Tavistock Jcn - Penzance, Class J, Engine pg D.  Does not call at par, Newquay traffic via Truro.

 

07.00  Tavistock Jcn - Penzance, Class E, Engine pg D. Does not call at Par.

 

09.25 Tavistock Jcn - St Austell, Class J, Engine pg D (51XX).  Par traffic formed front on arrival, no connecting trains noted.

 

N.B.  All clay empties for terminals. sidings etc on the area were routed via St Blazey  There must have been a tavistock Jcn - St Blazey return working for the 42XX but it isn't shown in the Marshalling Instructions.

Thanks very much Mike, as someone modelling mid-Cornwall in 1947, this is very helpful indeed. Are there no goods workings beginning and/or ending at Truro?

 

And thanks to St Endoc for this great thread on your layout, which I've very much enjoyed following the development of.

 

Cheers,

 

Ben

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks very much Mike, as someone modelling mid-Cornwall in 1947, this is very helpful indeed. Are there no goods workings beginning and/or ending at Truro?

 

And thanks to St Endoc for this great thread on your layout, which I've very much enjoyed following the development of.

 

Cheers,

 

Ben

 

The Marshalling Instructions only covered 'Through And Important Local Freight Trains' although - as shown in the above in respect of Par (some) connecting services were noted.

 

In theory the trains should align with those mentioned in the concurrent Service Timetable so if you have one of those or can access it on the 'net you should have the basic TT information and the marshalling was clearly down to local knowledge and practice - generally local freights were marshalled in station order but that depended on whether local stations were shunted off the front (usually) or rear of the train.

 

Although times might have varied a bit generally as various trains were reintroduced post-war things seem to have remained roughly the same until the time of the 1955 strike after which traffic losses became serious and services were more frequently recast.  Even into the 1990s we still had some freights (although not the general sort of traffic mix of the earlier years) which had run in roughly the same times for years on end. others were in & out of the the Working Timetable quicker than you could remember what they were for.

 

IMPORTANT FOOTNOTE - applying to all the trains in the list I originally posted, unless shown otherwise the trains ran M-S, i.e. Monday to Saturday inclusive.

[The Fatadder]

Right - 1948 Freight Marshalling (alphabetical order of starting point), Section B starting stations only so basically Bristol, Exeter and Plymouth Districts -

 

21.55 Bristol West Depot - Penzance, Class C, Engine power group DX  Max load 45 wagons in Cornwall.  Par traffic marshalled rear from Bodmin Road connects 04.40 Par to St Blazey, 07.03 and 07.25 Passr trains Par to Newquay, 08.20 StBZ to St Dennis

 

19.18 Drump Lane - Bristol, Class C. Engine power group DX.  Cattle wagons for Highbridge formed on the engine (if any running).  Does not call at Par, Newquay branch traffic via Truro.

 

17.05 Marazion - Oxley, Class C, Engine pg DX.  All non-vac marshalled rear.  Does not call at Par.

 

14.50 Penzance - Paddington, Class C, Engine pg D (47XX from Laira).  Load 45 wagons in Cornwall, livestock marshalled in the non-vac section rear.  Not to convey between Penzance and Paddington wagons with axleboxes packed with horsehair or waste.  Does not call at Par.

 

19.45 Penzance - Plymouth,  Class J, Engine pg D.  Calls at Par - no feeding trains noted.  Traffic added to be marshalled as per segregations on train.

 

00.45 MX/01.10 MO Plymouth - Penzance, Class D, Engine pg D.  Calls at Par - connecting freight trains as noted for 21.55 Bristol WD.  Par traffic marshalled between approx between vac and non-vac sections.

 

22.30 St Blazey - Tavistock Jcn, Class J, Engine pg E (42XX)

 

 

01.40 Tavistock Jcn - Penzance, Class J, Engine pg D.  Does not call at par, Newquay traffic via Truro.

 

07.00  Tavistock Jcn - Penzance, Class E, Engine pg D. Does not call at Par.

 

09.25 Tavistock Jcn - St Austell, Class J, Engine pg D (51XX).  Par traffic formed front on arrival, no connecting trains noted.

 

N.B.  All clay empties for terminals. sidings etc on the area were routed via St Blazey  There must have been a tavistock Jcn - St Blazey return working for the 42XX but it isn't shown in the Marshalling Instructions.

Very interesting Mike, the data I have been working from (working timetable if I remember rightly) obviously didn't include remotely that much data.). I will now try and cross check similar '47 services and add the power group info. Out of interest, where a specific class is not mentioned, is there a published record of what locos are in each group?

[St Enodoc]

It's a funny old world. I just popped out to the railway room to see if I could find the spare bits of Ratio Cattle Dock that were left over from modifying the kit to suit the smaller space at St Enodoc, which might have been of use to Rich Pedder (The Fatadder).

 

Did I find them?

 

No.

 

What did I find instead?

 

The brand new box of brass lace pins that I bought years ago for switch blade/tiebar pivots.

 

Ah well, onwards and upwards...

[St Enodoc]

I finished the first double slip today.

 

To make the equalising lever, that will allow both tiebars at the same end to be worked by a single motor, I bent up two lace pins in the same way as the ones that attach the switch rails to the tiebars. This time, though, I inserted the pins from above and lined them up so that they were about 1 mm apart and more or less perpendicular to the tiebars.

 

Next, I tinned the pins and a 14 BA washer then soldered the washer to the upper side of the pins. I used a cocktail stick to hold the washer in place and to make sure that the hole didn't fill with solder.

 

I trimmed the long ends of the pins from underneath so that they were level with the washer.

 

The motor drive wire will poke up through the washer and drive the equalising lever, which will in turn drive both tiebars. If one tiebar comes to the end of its throw before the other, the equalising lever will allow the second to keep going until it too reaches the end of its travel.

 

I will build a test rig to confirm that the motor has enough power to do all this but, based on manual testing, the whole assembly doesn't seem to be noticeably stiffer than a normal point.

 

 

The last job was to trim the tiebars to match the length of the timbers next to them.

 

I have decided not to use this first slip at Porthmellyn Road, as I want the two adjacent slips to have the same appearance. Instead it will go into store and be installed either at Pentowan or possibly at Polperran, where the saving of length compared with two points will allow the storage roads there to be slightly longer.

 

Apart from the facing crossover on the branch (41), all the points for Porthmellyn Road are now built, timbered or drawn up as templates. I will build the facing point (13B) and single slip (19B/13A) next, so that I can lay a temporary connection into the Branch platform ready for the railbus.

 

Edited to show correct point numbers.

Edited June 15, 2023 by St Enodoc
Images restored

[Andrew P]

Excellent workmanship, so very bloomin neat, and functional. Well done young Man.

[St Enodoc]

Excellent workmanship, so very bloomin neat, and functional. Well done young Man.

Thanks Andy. I still need to make sure it works with the motors though! I'm going to try a Cobalt at one end and a Tortoise at the other.

[Andrew P]

Thanks Andy. I still need to make sure it works with the motors though! I'm going to try a Cobalt at one end and a Tortoise at the other.

I've used both, and the Traintronics TT300, the TT300 was my preferred choice on Bitton with all the hand built Points, and West Shed with Peco Code 75 as the Motor is smaller, but my other choice would be the Tortoise I think, they are certainly slower and quieter.

[St Enodoc]

Excellent Mike, thank you very much. I will correlate that list with my 1952 STT to enhance the authenticity of my freight workings.

Mike, of the ten trains in your list six appear in my condensed composite 1952/7/8 sequence. Although the times are slightly different in some cases, they are recognisably the same trains. Of the other four, the 2230 St Blazey and the 0925 Tavy Jn don't appear on the layout as their entire journeys are to the East of my modelled area. The remaining two, the 0045 MX/0110 MO Plymouth and the 0140 Tavy Jn, are trains that I have culled from the sequence to cut down the overall number of trains.

 

Fortunately, none of my wagons have axleboxes packed with horsehair or waste, so I can run the 1450 Penzance with a clear conscience.

 

Thanks again.

[The Stationmaster]

Very interesting Mike, the data I have been working from (working timetable if I remember rightly) obviously didn't include remotely that much data.). I will now try and cross check similar '47 services and add the power group info. Out of interest, where a specific class is not mentioned, is there a published record of what locos are in each group?

 

There is a sort of list (basically a few examples) on this Wiki page -

 

 https://www.svrwiki.com/GWR_Power_and_Weight_Classification

 

The RCTS history (Volume 1 explains the basic classifications but doesn't give examples while some of the old Ian Allan ABCs (WR version and Combined Volume) included a fairly complete list.  Apart from the RCTS books (where power groups are shown against each class entry and thus you need several volumes for the complete picture) the best single source, especially for your period, would appear to be 'Gone With Regret' which includes a fairly comprehensive list as an appendix.  Online 'The Great Western Archice'

comes over as inconsistent on a Route Availability and Power Group information showing the detail for some classes but not others although the basic data is present so you can work it out for yourself using the information on the Wiki page I linked above.

 

Other folk will no doubt know of other possible sources.

[The Fatadder]

There is a sort of list (basically a few examples) on this Wiki page -

 

 https://www.svrwiki.com/GWR_Power_and_Weight_Classification

 

The RCTS history (Volume 1 explains the basic classifications but doesn't give examples while some of the old Ian Allan ABCs (WR version and Combined Volume) included a fairly complete list.  Apart from the RCTS books (where power groups are shown against each class entry and thus you need several volumes for the complete picture) the best single source, especially for your period, would appear to be 'Gone With Regret' which includes a fairly comprehensive list as an appendix.  Online 'The Great Western Archice'

comes over as inconsistent on a Route Availability and Power Group information showing the detail for some classes but not others although the basic data is present so you can work it out for yourself using the information on the Wiki page I linked above.

 

Other folk will no doubt know of other possible sources.

Thanks, will have a look. THe hard part will be finding the 1947 Freight Marshalling document I think, as having checked the info I have available it only has the class of freight train (from the working timetable) not the power classification. Now to start searching the web for a source....

[St Enodoc]

There is a sort of list (basically a few examples) on this Wiki page -

 

 https://www.svrwiki.com/GWR_Power_and_Weight_Classification

 

The RCTS history (Volume 1 explains the basic classifications but doesn't give examples while some of the old Ian Allan ABCs (WR version and Combined Volume) included a fairly complete list.  Apart from the RCTS books (where power groups are shown against each class entry and thus you need several volumes for the complete picture) the best single source, especially for your period, would appear to be 'Gone With Regret' which includes a fairly comprehensive list as an appendix.  Online 'The Great Western Archice'

comes over as inconsistent on a Route Availability and Power Group information showing the detail for some classes but not others although the basic data is present so you can work it out for yourself using the information on the Wiki page I linked above.

 

Other folk will no doubt know of other possible sources.

There's a list here:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/misc_equip195.htm#table2

 

but it is from 1924.

 

I'm sure I've got something more recent than this, possibly in the 1960 Regional Appendix. I'll have a look when I get home.

[St Enodoc]

There's a list here:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/misc_equip195.htm#table2

 

but it is from 1924.

 

I'm sure I've got something more recent than this, possibly in the 1960 Regional Appendix. I'll have a look when I get home.

I was wrong. There's nothing in the Regional Appendix (or the GA). There's no list of power groups as such in my 1961 Plymouth District WTT either, although there is some useful information on BR Standards and a few ex-LMS steam locos, as well as the early diesels, regarding which route colour and power group they were equivalent to.

 

The most comprehensive list of WR power groups that I have is indeed in my 1955 abc Combined Volume reprint, although it doesn't include the "X" sub-group. Am I right in thinking that this sub-group applied only to Halls, Granges and Counties?

[The Stationmaster]

I was wrong. There's nothing in the Regional Appendix (or the GA). There's no list of power groups as such in my 1961 Plymouth District WTT either, although there is some useful information on BR Standards and a few ex-LMS steam locos, as well as the early diesels, regarding which route colour and power group they were equivalent to.

 

The most comprehensive list of WR power groups that I have is indeed in my 1955 abc Combined Volume reprint, although it doesn't include the "X" sub-group. Am I right in thinking that this sub-group applied only to Halls, Granges and Counties?

 

Oddly some GWR official information doesn't include the Power Groups either - including the first edition of the Passenger Train Loads booklet.  The 1928 edition of 'GWR Engines' seems to cover most then extant (GWR) standard classes but there is no list in the 1946 edition nor is the Power Group mentioned in the individual class details.

 

(Hawksworth) Counties were DX;  I'm not sure if any 'Granges' were; and as far as the 'Halls' were concerned it was down to individual engines although I've an idea that all the 'Modified Halls' were X (not checked).

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks, will have a look. THe hard part will be finding the 1947 Freight Marshalling document I think, as having checked the info I have available it only has the class of freight train (from the working timetable) not the power classification. Now to start searching the web for a source....

The problem with the GWR Freight Marshalling Instructions was that they were issued in sections (not sure if it was 3 or 4 sections) and the sections were based on the starting point of trains - not where they ran/terminated.  That was probably a rather cock-eyed way of doing things as far as through trains at intermediate yards were concerned as it mean that in many cases they needed more than one section of the Instructions.

 

What I don't know is to what extent local simplifiers were produced back in those days and whether any of those were officially printed (in the same manner as Station Working Books) although I suspect that if any did exist they were strictly local productions and I know that many Shunters simply worked from memory on the basis of 'this is the way it is done in our yard'.  

 

When I came along c.20 years later the Marshalling Instructions were a publication covering the whole Region - but there were of course far fewer trains by then.  And that remained the case until the end of the Regions in 1992 although until privatisation in 1994 we still published them on the basis of the previous Regional boundaries as our TLF planning office areas basically reflected the old Regional boundaries although a a couple of us managing the offices picked up an additional former Region's area in the 1992 sectorisation reorganisation.

[St Enodoc]

I've used both, and the Traintronics TT300, the TT300 was my preferred choice on Bitton with all the hand built Points, and West Shed with Peco Code 75 as the Motor is smaller, but my other choice would be the Tortoise I think, they are certainly slower and quieter.

Thanks Andy. I've now had a chance to look at the Traintronics website and also at some commentary on RMweb and elsewhere. As a result of doing that, I don't think the TT300 is for me, mainly due to the price differential with the others (about 20 - 30% at current exchange rates). There also seems to be a range of opinions regarding noise, speed of operation and reliability of the limit switches. 

[The Fatadder]

The problem with the GWR Freight Marshalling Instructions was that they were issued in sections (not sure if it was 3 or 4 sections) and the sections were based on the starting point of trains - not where they ran/terminated.  That was probably a rather cock-eyed way of doing things as far as through trains at intermediate yards were concerned as it mean that in many cases they needed more than one section of the Instructions.

Thanks again, so that's four documents to be looking for, made worse by the freight marshalling files seeming to be a lot more rare than the carriage workings or working timetables (and they don't appear on eBay very often in my searching)

 

It's a shame that this sort of info isn't available at Swindon

[St Enodoc]

Thanks again, so that's four documents to be looking for, made worse by the freight marshalling files seeming to be a lot more rare than the carriage workings or working timetables (and they don't appear on eBay very often in my searching)

 

It's a shame that this sort of info isn't available at Swindon

Rich, are you aware of Robert Carroll's BR Coaching Stock Yahoo Group (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRCoachingStock/info)? This site gives access to, among other things, dozens of carriage workings and other useful information. Despite the name, here are many pre-nationalisation documents among them.

 

Have a look too at http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=592. The nearest year to 1947 is 1949 but I suspect that not much changed in those two years.

[St Enodoc]

I thought that the Dapol GRCW railcar might have arrived this week, but it hasn't. Probably a good thing as it would have diverted me from less interesting but more important tasks over the weekend.

 

Anyway, pending its arrival, does anyone know which of the cars (if any) worked in Cornwall before 1960?

[St Enodoc]

The double slip saga has been going on for a while now, not helped by being away on business for around half of every week at the moment. However, I wanted to be sure that what I was doing would work at each stage before moving on to the next.

 

With this in mind, today I managed to knock up a test rig to see if the coupled tiebars would work with a single motor per pair.

 

The rig consists of a few bits of baseboard framing timber and some cross-pieces of 9 mm ply topped with 3 mm cork, to replicate the construction of the baseboard tops. I stuck the slip down with masking tape but after I took this photo I had to modify the fixing of the two middle cross-pieces, as the tape was stopping the blades moving properly.

 

I fitted a Cobalt at one end and a Tortoise at the other. Using a couple of jumper leads, I tried out both motors using the layout's actual point and signal power supply.

 

After adjusting the position of the fulcrum bars, both motors moved the blades across satisfactorily but the Cobalt seemed to hold them more firmly against the stock rails than the Tortoise did, possibly due to the different gearing arrangements of the two motors. It certainly didn't let them ease off when the power was removed (not that that would be a problem in actual operation).

 

 

These two photos show very clearly the considerable size difference between the two motors. This, the more positive holding action and the ease of fitting (drive wire ready formed, no soldering, motors supplied ready-centred) are leading me towards adopting the Cobalt as my standard.

 

 

Once I was happy with the slip I turned to the template for 13 and 19B points. I drew this up in one piece over 20 years ago for the second St Enodoc, the loft layout. More recently I modified it with equalised timbering. On the present layout, the tracks at Porthmellyn Road were set out in exactly the same way as on the old layout but I wanted to be sure that my tracklaying on the main lines had followed the correct alignment. To help with this, and because I will make the ordinary point and the slip separately, I cut the template into two pieces. I lined these up with the tracks underneath and the centre line of the connection to Porthmellyn Road yard. I'm very pleased to say that the two halves of the template aligned almost perfectly after all this. The next step, then, is to transfer some key reference points to the baseboard so that I can bring the templates indoors ready to start construction.

Edited July 20, 2023 by St Enodoc
images restored

[Andrew P]

Wow mate, that will look the part. well done.

[St Enodoc]

Wow mate, that will look the part. well done.

Thanks Andy. Now I've proved to myself that I can build slips, things should start moving a bit faster again now.

[Michael Edge]

Are you using the operating wire supplied with the Tortoise motor? In my opinion it's far too thin, most of the facing points on Carlisle have had the wires replaced with .8mm piano wire - more important here because the power is not left on.