A New Home needs a good shed !

[gismorail]

Well I reckon it's time I shared some of my efforts to others as to how I am currently constructing a model railway shed having moved to North Wales. A couple of years ago I made the move to the beautiful Dee Valley with retirement in mind and found a cottage where I could enjoy the peace and quite of country living with the added bonus that I can watch steam trains from the garden now that the extension to Corwen on the Llangollen Railway is now operating. 

 

Before I purchased the property I made some enquiries about the possible planning implications for a shed measuring 8 metres x 4 metres and as it is 'An Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty' found that I would need outline household planning permission for any shed that was more than 10 sq metres. I made an appointment with the local planning department and had a very informative discussion with one of the planning officers who was very helpful. Basically as long as the building was of wooden construction and blended into the environment and there were no objections from neighbours there would be no issues to stop me getting the required permission.( As my nearest neighbour is a third of a mile away the normal planning objections were not going to be a problem.)

 

Having purchased the property and moved in the time came to apply for the required outline planning and I downloaded the forms and started to fill them in......... well I read them though once and then several more times and still was none the wiser as to how the best present the required information     Having asked around friends and family and considering the fact that the planning fee was £165.00 I employed the services of a planning consultant to prepare the planning forms which cost £175.00 as well as proper prepared plans which would be of use when the construction began. 

The weeks went by and a couple of months later I was granted planning permission and the only restriction was that I had to consult with the planning department as to what colour the roof was going to be. ( As the other roofs on the main property were slate we agreed that a black / grey colour would be acceptable.) Well that,s the hard bit done I hear you say .....    prehaps some pictures of the proposed site might answer that question better 

 

Well as you can see the site is anything but level so some some serious earth moving is going to have to be undertaken as well as the demolition of a very old shed which was in danger of slipping into the field. The other task that needed to be sorted was the fact that the retaining wall into the field was in need of some reconstruction before any founderations for the new shed could be started.  

[gismorail]

Thought some plans for the new shed might be of interest to you all

 

Plans of side elevations

 

 

I have gone for high up security type windows of which there are only two just so I know if it,s dark or night outside also I'm hoping that the less daylight there is the track will not attract the noprmal dirt that we all know builds up

More to follow

[gismorail]

Just to bring things up to date to the current state of play as most of this work has been ongoing for the last couple of months The earth works were the major head scratching and back breaking part to be honest. Had I got my calculations rights ????? To level out the site it was a matter of raising the retaining wall above the field once the base had been made sound.  

Then the higher part of the garden needed to be moved across until a level area was achieved 

 

 

So that the concrete base of the new shed could be laid on a solid ground above the field retaining wall I back filled each new course of stonework with concrete. I could have sited the shed in a more central position but this would have blocked the view from the living room which looks up the valley behind the house. The other consideration that I had to take into account was once the shed base was in place I would lost the access to the lower part of the garden where a patio was to be built and would mean taking building blocks and paving slabs down the newly constructed steps 

 

The next image shows the base retaining  walls around the steps from the upper garden where the shed is to be positioned

 

 

 

 

Once these had been completed it was time to bring in the mini digger and youngest son to save Dad's back 

After getting the site levelled out the footings of the shed were laid and hard core put in place ready for the concrete base

 

 

 

Area alongside the shed which will have a carport cover which will be just the place to make baseboards and therefore keeping dust levels in the shed as low as possible 

[gismorail]

For some reasons the attachments did not post

 

 

Retaining wall re-built

The lower garden work under way

 

Ready for concrete yipheee

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... also I'm hoping that the less daylight there is the track will not attract the normal dirt that we all know builds up...

I hasten to exonerate daylight - or indeed any light other than that obtained from direct combustion of a candle or similar - of a role in the deposition of track dirt!

 

Now, the good news. A dedicated separate building for a model railway results in far less track dirt build up than if the same layout is operated in a house. Simply fewer human beings and pests/pets (according to taste) shedding skin and hair cells, and dispersing general muck into the atmosphere. (This is the 'exhibition effect' where loads of people circulating around layouts means that the dirt build up on the layout rails is much greater than in a normal operating session with just a few operators present.)

 

If you avoid carpet on the floor of the shed, and wear as little non-fluffing clothing as possible, you will add to that advantage; textile fibre is one major source of 'dirt' that affects model railway kit. Ban plastic wheels and traction tyres from the shed layout, and lubricate sparingly using grease as much as possible, and you will find little track cleaning necessary once the manufacturing residues have polished off both new rail and new wheel tyres. I keep a separate test track to run new locos and stock until any residues are removed, before release to unrestricted layout use.

[gismorail]

I hasten to exonerate daylight - or indeed any light other than that obtained from direct combustion of a candle or similar - of a role in the deposition of track dirt!

 

Now, the good news. A dedicated separate building for a model railway results in far less track dirt build up than if the same layout is operated in a house. Simply fewer human beings and pests/pets (according to taste) shedding skin and hair cells, and dispersing general muck into the atmosphere. (This is the 'exhibition effect' where loads of people circulating around layouts means that the dirt build up on the layout rails is much greater than in a normal operating session with just a few operators present.)

 

If you avoid carpet on the floor of the shed, and wear as little non-fluffing clothing as possible, you will add to that advantage; textile fibre is one major source of 'dirt' that affects model railway kit. Ban plastic wheels and traction tyres from the shed layout, and lubricate sparingly using grease as much as possible, and you will find little track cleaning necessary once the manufacturing residues have polished off both new rail and new wheel tyres. I keep a separate test track to run new locos and stock until any residues are removed, before release to unrestricted layout use.

Now that's some study you have put into keeping track clean and I'm now wandering if we should shower and wear protective clothing before we have an operating sessions 

 

On a more serious note it is very interesting information that you have informed us with , My idea to have few windows is probably more to do with security to be honest but I do have a friend who has a loft layout and he tells me that he believes that the lack of daylight means that he very rarely has to clean the trackwork 

[gismorail]

Well have had a productive day today as the concreting is now complete .......ouch my back is aching have to admit but all in a good cause me thinks 

 

I have decided to add a small workshop at the end of the railway shed where I can set up a workbench and shelving, spray booth and racking to store the vast amount of tools that us modellers collect. It can only be 10sq metres as I will have to go down the planning permission road again 

 

The following photo's shows the project as it is today 

 

Looking across to the shed including the carport area

 

The new steps down to the house as the old path is now underneath the shed base,

 

I have installed a surface drain along the front of the shed as we seem to get a lot of rain here in North Wales   

 

The outlet falls into field behind the shed , I also installed drainage pipes within the rebuilt retaining wall just to make sure there was no build up of surface water around the embankment.

 

General view from the now completed patio in the lower garden which had to be completed before the shed base was constructed

 

 

Still got a couple a walls to complete the base area then it will be time to order the timber for the framework. My eldest son is producing a CAD drawing of the shed which will give me a list of materials that will be required. It will work out the required lengths of timber and the most effective amount to keep wastage to a minimum 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gismorail]

Your right there Mickey I have followed a few on here over the years and have learn't a lot. Its great seeing how different people approach the project that they have set themselves. It amazes me what we do as modellers ...... electric's , carpentry , painting and now shed building ......and that's all before we do any modelling or turn a wheel in anger .....this hobby really is ' multi tasking' 

[chris p bacon]

Looking really good Gismo.

 

As you're producing a cutting list then I presume you're making it "The proper way".   

 

What's your spec for walls, roof and insulation

[gismorail]

Hi Chris..... Well the frame and roof  trusses will be 4 x 2 (old money )  Lap board for the outside of the walls , but that might change as I have to investigate some wood effect  UPVC cladding yet I know it's going to be expensive but it saves all the preservatives each year . Kingspan insulation throughout Plastic coated industrial box profile roof sheets and then the interior covered in ship-lap. Flooring will be suspended floor boards on 4 x 2 with insulation. Keeping a very open mind on the materials as I still to see the list yet Hopeful it should be completed by this weekend 

[gismorail]

Sounds like my dad writing specifications for everything...took me 30 years to realise he was right all along

Well to be honest Mickey I'm not one to do lists to be honest but felt that in this case it was needed. I'm normally a 'build and design as you go' type of person but having priced a bespoke shed from a company called Regency Sheds at Penley nr Wrexham of the same size. The cost including on site erection was £6000.00 and I had to supply the slab for it to sit on as well as insulation and internal lining  I decided that i could build a better shed cheaper. The money that I save can go into extra insulation,electrics and fittings. I also felt that a shed of this size needed to be property fixed down rather than just sitting on a concrete or paved base. As you can see I have built a single breeze block wall to which the sides will be bolted down too. There is a damp course beneath these blocks and there will be one between the blocks and the base timber's . 

The control of the material purchase will hopefully reduce the waste off cuts and I will also be able to see if the cost does work out cheaper in the end. 

I will update the costs as i work them out so that anyone thinking of building a railway shed will have some idea as to the costs involved. 

I also obtained a quotation from Keops log cabins for the same size which included insulation in the roof area which is all they reckon is needed and that was in exscess of £9,000.00 plus the base. and electrics and fitting etc. 

[chris p bacon]

Hi Chris..... Well the frame and roof  trusses will be 4 x 2 (old money )  Lap board for the outside of the walls , but that might change as I have to investigate some wood effect  UPVC cladding yet I know it's going to be expensive but it saves all the preservatives each year . Kingspan insulation throughout Plastic coated industrial box profile roof sheets and then the interior covered in ship-lap. Flooring will be suspended floor boards on 4 x 2 with insulation. Keeping a very open mind on the materials as I still to see the list yet Hopeful it should be completed by this weekend 

That's a good spec.

 

4 x2 will see you out, you should find that it is all treated nowadays as they stack outside, if you are going to use the UPVC cladding you'll need to ply the outside, doesn't need to be anything special just some half inch sheathing ply or OSB board, this will also give it immense rigidity and does mean you only need to use a single noggin half way up the studs (it's just a spacer effectively) We make all our panels on the floor then stand them up and join them together, the ply makes this so easy and even if you use lap/feather edged board on the outside I'd be tempted to still ply it anyway as it cuts down on draughts.

The shiplap in the interior will look very nice but will be expensive as you've got quite a few metres to cover. If it starts to cost more than you like and you wanted to save a bit I'd spend all the money on the roof, insulation and outside and change the shiplap for a ply.

For the floor as you have 100mm to play with you don't need to put a Kingspan between the joists as you have the space for one of the flooring grade polystyrenes (Jablite is one name) 75mm is more than enough in the floor and it'll save you some cash which you can spend on things like a GN Atlantic or the Stirling single or other GN locomotives.......

[chris p bacon]

The control of the material purchase will hopefully reduce the waste off cuts and I will also be able to see if the cost does work out cheaper in the end. 

I will update the costs as i work them out so that anyone thinking of building a railway shed will have some idea as to the costs involved. 

I also obtained a quotation from Keops log cabins for the same size which included insulation in the roof area which is all they reckon is needed and that was in exscess of £9,000.00 plus the base. and electrics and fitting etc. 

I'd be interested to see your costings, I do this for a living and although the sheds that you can get are pretty good I always say that with some average DIY skills most can build a shed for far less and to a higher spec.

Yours is far larger than most and will obviously cost more but I know that you'll come in for less than the Keops cabin but with a far superior shed. I've looked at them before and for £9,000 you have to build it yourself and you get a felt shingle roof and no matter what they say you do need insulation in the walls, 56mm log walls would be fine as a leisure/lounging about in summer cabin, but for year round use it wouldn't be enough.

[gismorail]

Hi chris

Thanks for the info on UPVC cladding did't know about having to use ply as a backing think that will put me off that idea. I'm sourcing the timber from a local sawmill which the company I drive for ships timber all around the country so I've been promised some favourable prices so I will go for the large lapboard finish. 

Agree about the shiplap costs and I'm still thinking about that one, have thought about plaster board but have read in other posts that one can have problems so yes ply is a possible option. The thing is I want to have light colouring on the internal walls due to the lack of windows and am hoping that it will not look too dark inside.

I do intend to use tongue a groove wood on the interior of the roof as it will give rigidity to the roof area, also I'm hoping that with good weather I can fit that first and I can lay the roof insulation on top and then the roofing sheets thus saving the struggle of installing the roof insulation from below. A lot of the construction is going to have to be me on my own so anything like this has to be thought about well in advance.

 

The Keops option was just too expensive to be honest also due to the construction it would have had  two log joints down both sides which the baseboards would have to fit around.  

[uax6]

I wouldn't use lap board for the external walls. Use tounge and groove mounted vertically. Then batten over the joins with 2x1. I have two sheds built like this and they have lasted much better than sheds with anything laid horizontally. Keep them well treated (I use Bird-brand Ecosote) and you will have a long lasting building.

 

Mine have been up 12 years, and its the doors that are rotting, not the cladding!

 

Andy G

[chris p bacon]

Hi chris

Thanks for the info on UPVC cladding did't know about having to use ply as a backing think that will put me off that idea. I'm sourcing the timber from a local sawmill which the company I drive for ships timber all around the country so I've been promised some favourable prices so I will go for the large lapboard finish. 

Agree about the shiplap costs and I'm still thinking about that one, have thought about plaster board but have read in other posts that one can have problems so yes ply is a possible option. The thing is I want to have light colouring on the internal walls due to the lack of windows and am hoping that it will not look too dark inside.

I do intend to use tongue a groove wood on the interior of the roof as it will give rigidity to the roof area, also I'm hoping that with good weather I can fit that first and I can lay the roof insulation on top and then the roofing sheets thus saving the struggle of installing the roof insulation from below. A lot of the construction is going to have to be me on my own so anything like this has to be thought about well in advance.

 

The Keops option was just too expensive to be honest also due to the construction it would have had  two log joints down both sides which the baseboards would have to fit around.  

For the exterior lap/feather edge board is it something like Larch or (even better) Cedar ? woods such as this is naturally long lasting before you think about preservative. Something I would do if you don't use a ply on the exterior is to wrap the building in a breathable membrane such as Tyvek. it is expensive but for about £100 you get a 50M -long 1.5M roll and you'll need it on the roof anyway. Just stapled onto the exterior before you clad and it'll keep draughts out and help with your energy efficiency (more comfy).

 

If you're worried about it getting dark on the inside I would have a think about using Shiplap as a good quality board is going to naturally darken over time anyway even with the small amount of UV which the windows would let in. Maybe think about using a reasonable quality 6/9mm ply and painting with an emulsion. just batten over the joins for neatness.

 

Re - the roof that you are describing doing (Rafters with insulation over and then counterbattened) is called a "warm roof" The minimum thickness Celotex you should use (without looking it up) is probably 50mm,  you just have to make sure the junction of roof and walls has no gaps or "cold spots" - the insulation must meet so you have some cutting and filling to do there. If you want to beef up the roof insulation you could cut it then place between the rafters as you fit them. Just make a scaffold up (even out of pallets) as working comfortably makes the job better.

[chris p bacon]

I wouldn't use lap board for the external walls. Use tounge and groove mounted vertically. Then batten over the joins with 2x1. I have two sheds built like this and they have lasted much better than sheds with anything laid horizontally. Keep them well treated (I use Bird-brand Ecosote) and you will have a long lasting building.

 

Mine have been up 12 years, and its the doors that are rotting, not the cladding!

 

Andy G

Sorry Andy but I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. Vertical boarding ceased here many years ago as part of general construction as the tendency to rot was just to great. Robust details specify that if a verticle board is used it has to be backed up by another board/structure.

There is also the cost, for a start a T&G board is more expensive as it has to be machined rather than just sawn and has to be from "unsorted" stock, with the addition of a 2x1 or similar a quick calc puts the cost at X 6 and Gismo has 20+ linear metres to do.

 

As a couple of examples I built a temporary workshop/garage at our house 15 years ago using exactly the same design as Gismo and using feather edged board, I took it down at the end of last year as we are now doing a permanent building and what took me 2+ weeks to put up, took me 6 to take down as it put up a fight (I'm 15 years older too!) it was taken down in sections and has gone to be other things, I didn't use membrane at the time as it was only meant to be temp but as we took it apart it showed no signs of rot anywhere and we were impressed with it.

About 8 years ago I brought a Skandia Hus single storey building from the late 70's (Big 1/2 acre plot with planning permission for a massive 8 bedroom which wechanged to 2 - 4 bedroom houses) It was no more than 28 years old and would of been an expensive build at the time.

The general construction was a 4x2 frame with ply over, tar paper then vertical Cedar cladding as you describe ((T&G with cover strip) when we took it apart the Cedar had shrunk and allowed a lot of water in, after a while the paper cover on the tar paper had rotted and then the tar itself had come apart allowing the water to penetrate into the ply and ultimately into the 4x2. Parts of the building had no support as the footplate had rotted away. From the outside it looked fine but the reality was that wihin a few more years it would have started to sag and lean. It did hve a very deep eave (Swedish style) to deflect water away and the gutter was in good order with no water staining so the walls had not been subjected to constant wet.

We actually took it apart with a chainsaw and bars as we could not use machinery (protected tress) and it all went away in 3 x 40 yard roll on/off skips, simlar toi the sections it would of been delivered in.

 

Doors - If they are a brought in door then sadly the stock and quality nowadays is pretty poor, there is also many points of rot with the joints.

[gismorail]

Thanks for all that information Chris many thanks for your input 

I will check out 'Tyvek' when I'm next at the builders merchants. Have to admit that I was not planning to ply the exterior behind feather boarding. Interested that you recommend 'Celotex' insulation I've seen that mentioned in other threads about railway sheds, is it better  than Kingspan' ???

 

I was chatting to someone at work today and he was telling me that he had used loft insulation in the roof of his workshop which is similar to what I'm building, mainly due to price but also because he found that it was easier to fit and could make sure that the junction area was well filled to stop any gaps / cold spots  

 

Totally agree about bought in doors, the ones on the garage at my last house rotted at the base within ten years. I will be coating all the timber well in preservative even though it comes treated I tend to stand each piece in the tub of preservative whilst I'm coating so that each end get a good soaking , time consuming but worth it.

 

This is the type of look I'm after should blend into the surroundings nicely 

 

[chris p bacon]

Thanks for all that information Chris many thanks for your input 

I will check out 'Tyvek' when I'm next at the builders merchants. Have to admit that I was not planning to ply the exterior behind feather boarding. Interested that you recommend 'Celotex' insulation I've seen that mentioned in other threads about railway sheds, is it better  than Kingspan' ???

 

I was chatting to someone at work today and he was telling me that he had used loft insulation in the roof of his workshop which is similar to what I'm building, mainly due to price but also because he found that it was easier to fit and could make sure that the junction area was well filled to stop any gaps / cold spots  

Celotex and Kingspan are the same product just a different trade name, essentially it is a slab insulation (not expanded polystyrene which is Jablite or similar) it is a high spec insulation board. Both will do the job for you. 

 

With the wool type insulation roll it is ok if you lay enough of it which I doubt you can in a shed roof as you don't have the depth of rafter, the current spec for domestic housing is 270mm thick (100mm laid one way then 170mm laid at 90 degrees) an equivalent using Kingspan is about 100mm. The more you can put in the better in the long run, I'd say that if you can put 75mm in then that would be a pretty good ratio of cost against heat gain. Don't forget that as well as keeping heat in side in the winter it will stop heat generated by the (large) roof in the summer penetrating into the shed.

You should be able to negotiate a better price if you buy all your Kingspan in one go, around here we have a company called "Sheffield Insulations" and they will deal with a one off customer if they are taking a large quantity (which you would), I'd see if you have a specialist insulation company nearby. The more insulation you can pack in the better, your shed is like my room, it is long and thin and would be awkward to heat if you have areas of high heat loss. The more insulation you have would mean that any heat you put into the building would be distributed more evenly and last a lot longer.

This will be a cracking Railway room when you've finished,  are you modelling anything in particular? 

[gismorail]

Thanks for that useful information Chris I will do a search for a local specialist insulation company here in North Wales. I have dealt with Sheffield Insulations  many years ago when I had a farm, I re-insulated a poultry shed back in the early eighties and found them very good. 

 

I have had this desire to re-create my old spotting haunt from many years ago Chester Northgate the place which got me hooked on railways to be honest. I've done the Great Western fiddle yard to terminus on a few occasions  and have even modelled Swiss Metre Gauge back in the early nineties but the call of the LNER in the west just won't go away so it's a project for my retirement. Have started a thread in layout topics 'Chester Northgate a layout of a lifetime (maybe) if you wish to follow my ramblings 

[Gary H]

Il be watching this one with interest.

Hopefully Il be in a position to do this myself one day!

[gismorail]

Where does time go !!!! forgotten how long it was since I actually did anything on this project, too much working away from home I'm afraid as well as getting quotations for the wood required. Still I reckon the time spent on getting the best deal has been worth it. 

Well the wood for the main frame and roof assembly was delivered on Thursday of this week so construction can start in earnest with the weather outlook appearing favourable 

I have opted for pre-treated wood even though it was a touch more expensive but it will save a lot of time 'slapping' preservative on myself as well having a more last effect on the timber.

 

 

 

Lenths of 4x2 4.2 m and 3.0m 

 

Main corner post 4x4 x 3m and 4x2 2.4m 

 

First task on Saturday morning was to batten out the top of the block wall which included a damp proof course between the block and the timber, I also inserted a damp proof between the block and the concrete base when the block work constructed. I opted for the thicker rubberised damp proof roll between the block and the timber base batten . Whilst the battens where set out on top of the block work I was checking levels to make sure the foundations were true

 

 

I decided to start with an end wall which was not as long as the side walls therefore making sure that my ' build and design' method was at least workable . I've done loads of sketches of my ideas but I'm afraid I'm one of those people who has something of a 'mental block' when it comes to technical drawings and its not until I see it in the ' flesh' as it were that I can get my head around the practical 

 

 

The first end frame up and standing proud ..... I have also erected the main door posts on the front wall as I needed to work out the gap required in the block wall before construction of this wall was started

 

 

An insiders view 

 

 

OMG it is going to be big ' What have I started' 

 

Well that's the progress for the first day of construction ....... I was going to post this update last night but I fell asleep in the bath ...... yes it was cold when I woke up 

 

 

[chris p bacon]

Looking good.

 

Everyone has different ways of building, the way we do things is to mark and construct the stud on the flat base than stand it upright but you do need more pairs of hands as it gets very heavy.

 

Having said that the current project which is a pool, has to be done the same way as yours as there is a big hole in the ground where the slab would normally be !

[gismorail]

Thanks for your kind comments Dave, Yes I know that a lot of people make up sheds in sections and then join them together ...... I have looked at that way of doing things, on this project I decided that as it's 'Billy-no-Mates' here having to do all the work as a single work force it would be easier to do it as one . 

The scary bit is going to be getting the roof trusses up there ....think I will have to borrow some tower scaffolding 

[gismorail]

Well another productive day ................... without work I could build a layout every month and a shed too 

I knew that today was going to be an interrupted day as far as shed building was concerned .............well the British Grand Prix was on live and lets face it one makes the most of live races when you've not got Sky     rip off tv....   and yes it was a good race and the right man WON 

First thing before the race I marked out all the upright positions on the base batons and cut  the uprights ready for construction ........ it was time for the big race during which it poured with rain here in North Wales ....well what's new. Felt sorry for the guys down at the Llangollen Railway as it was their Classic Transport Weekend, could hear the Pannier tank and two auto coaches running up to Corwen 

 

 

It does make a lovely site ....

 

Just as the race finished joy of joy's it stopped raining and the second side soon took shape making  yesterdays work nice and stable.I have used Bat Joist angled nail plates for the base of each upright and have too say I'm well impressed. As long as you make sure that each is square and the wood is a nice tight fit at does keep the whole frame true.  Like a lot of structures individual sections can be a bit unstable until the remaining pieces are put together. 

 

 

 

 

Couple of shots of today's progress and the final one is a view from the lower garden area. 

 

Have had my first tool casualty today my trusty Bosch hammer drill died     Have had a feeling for a while that not all was good as it kept loosing power when I put it under pressure (which is most of the time) will have to get some new bushes which should bring it back to life I've had it for ten years so can't grumble really can I ....

 

 

 

A died Bosch Power Tool 

 

As luck would have it I purchased a new  drill only the other day which was lucky 

 

 

I have also decided today that I need to buy a Mitre Saw stand as my back is suffering as the only place that I can site the saw at present is on top of a pile of timber joists , and as I have to construct the roof members which will require cutting angles I feel that if  I'm to have any chance of getting things true I need a good working height. I suppose it will come in useful for baseboards