BigAndy

On another livery point, the BR blue of the two different manufacturers are noticeably different shades. They Grey is different too, but not quite as bad. Given Oxford Rails previous for getting shades completely wrong, I know who my money is on as to which of the applied liveries is the most correct......... cheers Andy

Can't beleive Christmas is now only a week away, last time I looked it was the middle of November.........plenty of time to do some shopping.......oh wait.....best make a start then..... On the other hand, it means its very nearly DeFine time! Much more of an event than Christmas or New Year :imsohappy: cheers Andy

I'm genuinely pleased that the B/G paints from OR seem to be close enough. It's odd how they've managed to get that so very nearly there, yet the Inter-City/Swalow is miles out............. As I've mentioned in this thread previously, I do know exactly who has been 'assisting' Oxford Rail with their paint schemes..........I'm not witholding any names just for the sake of it, I just don't want a massive backlash - I quite like my hobby without having to worry about who I'm speaking to or what subject I'm talking to someone about. Safe to say, there was a reliable witness in the shape of my modelling buddy, who was also present, when the individual concerned informed us that it was he who had provided OR with all the relevant paint information.......... On the flip side of all this, I can look forward to buying some fairly cheap OR Mk3a's in the future, so I can butcher them around and then respray them into the correct shades of Executive or ScotRail livery.........it would have just saved me an awful lot of time had they got them right in the first place. cheers Andy PS I recently received my two Bachy ScotRail DBSO's........very nice they are too and not surprisingly match up exactly to my OR MK3a I've resprayed using Precision Exec Dark and Light Greys. Incidentally, in an arttempt at impartiality, a couple of noteable modellers of the water boiling device variety were asked by myself to compare the out of the box Bachy DBSO, my resprayed MK3a and an out of the box OR Mk3a in Inter-City livery. Neither knew of the current 'upset' between OR and the modelling fraternity, but BOTH quite categorically stated that the out of the box OR 3a, was quote " Miles away" in matching the other two.....

You all know my views on Oxford's choice of paint. Unfortunately, nothing's going to change from them, and as Bob has said, we probably need to move on.........however, just before we do, I'd like to throw this into the mix. I was fortunate enough to be in on the restoration of 47 712 'Lady Diana Spencer' at Crewe, as a volunteer in the group. When the time came to order the ScotRall paint, the owners chose a company called T & R Williamsons, who were est in 1775 believe it or not. Over the years they have supplied BR amongst other companies, and are still supplying the Railways today with specialist paints. The owners approached Williamsons for an order to repaint Lady Di and were suitably advised by Williamsons as to what paint should be used and indeed was used 30 years ago. When it arrived, we had a little session on comparing the Williamson paint (made from BR specs) with LIma's, Hornby's and Bachmann's choice of colours on their ScotRail liveried stock, along with a small tin of Railmatch paint and also a tin of Precision's. Lo and behold, they all matched up very, very closely with T & R Williamsons paint ( and each other I may add ) - The Exec Dark Grey was spot on and more importantly to this thread, the Executive Light Grey was also spot on. This all leads to the following conclusion: Whoever Oxford Rail has approached about the 'BR Specs' for its ScotRail Greys, has got it completely wrong, as theirs is the ONLY colour versionss that are nowhere near the T & R Willamson Greys, or Bachmanns or Hornbys etc etc. Therefore the argument from the Oxford rep that we all voted for a match to the real thing and they are right, is blown out of the water, because of the previous statement. ( We only voted for a match to the real thing because we knew Bachmann, Precision et al had already been getting it right for years, so believed that Oxford would do the same ) Do they REALLY believe that all those major manufacturers got it wrong, anf they're the only ones to get it right? Yeah, like I'm the only sane person on the World and everyone else is mad! They must have a completely un-swerving faith in their research to be so completely blindsided by the fact that they are, sadly.......... wrong. I also spke to the Oxford Rep at Warley and informed him of what I have written here - I also got the response that " You al voted for the correct livery, so that's what we've done " Talk about the Emperor believing that he's wearing a wonderful and lovely new suit. They're refusing to listen to advice and also what is right in front of their noses, so they can sadly only blame themselves now if their sales are affected. cheers Andy

Yeah, it was mentioned Paul. I'm just kidding about the demo - looking forward to going as a punter and being able to actually look at some layouts for a change! cheers Andy

Yep, local club to me - even though I'm not a member! so I shall be attending as it is an extremely enjoyable show. Would have very much liked to have been there with me plastic abuse roadshow, but was never invited.......(cough)........*cue Eric Morcambe style exit with coat and bag........ cheers Andy

Agreed Bob. There is the point however, that we are assuming the person doing the research/design, ACTUALLY knows the differences within the MK3a's..........on this evidence it seems that whoever is conducting research and signing off these areas on the models, doesn't really know that much about the subject in hand. That then leads on to whether you really do need a paid retainer, OR just go and seek out the experts in the first place during the research phase! Monkeys and peanuts spring to mind. I would suspect that a company such as Oxford, has employees and management who have none or very little knowledge of what they are actually producing. They therefore rely on 'experts' within the hobby to assist them. All well and good............so long as you're actually speaking to an expert and not some wannabe who talks a good fight, but in reality falls far short of the mark....... I myself am lucky, in that I have a tame professional engineer who works on MK1's,2's and 3's and really knows his onions. He's also very humble and would never shout about how much he does know.........which is where the problem again rears its head, of said 'Experts' shouting the loudest, 'advising' Oxford, and profferring that they know all there is to know........... cheers Andy

Thanks for the reply Richard - I've seen your services advertised and it was from there that the question was raised amongst our group. I myself am not an engineer, unlike the two lads who stated that over time the chassis may suffer from having the milling done on it, so it was a case of getting an informed opinion from someone such as your good self. I don't have a problem with it personally, but wanted to clear up any potential problems before I started to cut big lumps out of the block. cheers Andy

Hello all. Is the venue deabte for showcase North still up for debate? If so, just something for the organising team to have a look at - Crewe Heritage Centre. They have a huge exhibition hall and I have run the idea passed the General Manager who would be happy to discuss it with the organising team. Personally, if members and the public want a handy location, then Crewe is surely up there. You can get to it from virtually anywhere by train and the Heritage centre actually have a few vintage buses on site that they use for their own events, to and from Crewe Station. There are all the other delights to sample on site as well, including the 71/4 miniature railway which is a good run up and down the side of the WCM, or you can sit and have your packed lunch on the APT and watch the WCML activities as you eat. Lots to do as well as an exhibition. If any of the Showcase North organisers wish to speak to Mike Lens, the General Manager, then you can drop him a message direct on the CHC website here: https://crewehc.org/ Cheers Andy

Best make sure me coaching fleet is up to scratch then.......not having you barracking me from the front of the stand!!!

Charlie, a quick question if I may. In our little group, we have a mechanical engineer and an eletrical engineer. Both are questioning how much should be milled out of say, a Bachmann 40 block - in order to fit an EM2. Both guys are saying that because the block itself is not stress relieved, then milling out such a large amount is going to have serious ramifications on the future rigidity and general strength of the remaining block......... Can either you or Biff clear this up for us? cheers Andy

Thanks for confirming that Mark. cheers Andy

Just a quick question - Aren't the end vestibule doors on Mk2f's red? Apart from that, looks like a winner from Bachmann - but I want to have one in my greasy mitt though first before I make any further observations. I've got two DBSO's in ScotRail on pre-order, so getting escited about receiving them soon. cheers Andy

One thing that I have just pondered on, whilst looking at those close up shots. How come in the year we are in, do we still have printed on nameplates as standard? Given that a lot of modellers would not want to repaint/spray or have the facilities/skill to do so, they are left with no choice. Given Railtecs excellent 3d printed plates, would it really add much to the cost for that type of plate to be produced? Incidentally, this is not just Hornby I'm on about, it's most of the major manufacturers. cheers Andy

Starting tomorrow, Thurs 02nd August, the Crewe Heritage Centre is holding a celebration of both the resident APT and 47 192 being in preservation at Crewe for 30 years. The following text has been lifted from the CHC site: We are holding a four day event from Thursday to Sunday 2nd to 5th August 2018 to commemorate 30 Years since the APT-P and Class 47 D1842 entered preservation at Crewe Heritage Centre. With the recent return of the 2nd APT Power Car, which is now undergoing an external repaint, we now have all the remaining APT-P vehicles at the Heritage Centre once more. We hope to have some of the original APT-P engineers and technicians present over the weekend to talk about their experiences working on the original project. Our Class 47 D1842/47192 was the first of its class to enter preservation and arrived at the Centre in the autumn of 1988 and is currently in the exhibition hall undergoing bodywork repairs and a full repaint into original two-tone green livery with small yellow panel. In addition we will have a selection of visiting model railway layouts including 45C Westland and Glasgow Queen Street EM (under construction), plus trade support from D J Models and Kernow Model Rail Centre. There will be displays from HS2, Network Rail and various sales stands including the Woodhead Railway Heritage Group, Class 504 Preservation Society, Ivatt Diesel Re-creation Society and Telford Steam Railway. We will also have all our regular attractions available including 3 signal boxes, U.S. model railway layouts and 7 1/4 inch gauge miniature railway. Light refreshments will be available in our café and our shop will be open as usual. On the Saturday and Sunday it is hoped to have a bus shuttle operating between Crewe Station and the Heritage Centre. STOP PRESS: Thanks to Freightliner (UK) and work by members of the 37108 Group we are pleased to announce that Class 47 47830 ‘Beechings Legacy’ will be present on site for all four days of our event. It may be of interest, that Glasgow Queen St (EM) is now proudly a resident at the centre and will be available for the public to see the progress so far on the layout. Accompanying the layout, I will be present all weekend with a selection of stock on the layout and also demonstrating some modelling techniques at the front, by table top. For anyone who has never accessed the live cameras around the site, the Railcam UK site is here: http://www.railcam.uk/ However, CHC themselves have free access via their website for the camera overlooking the site from the North End jnct signal box veranda. CHC site is here, where further details are available: https://crewehc.org/ If any RMWebbers are planning on going, please stop to have a chat in the main exhibition hall ( where 47 192 is currently undergoing her facelift ) - I am the big ugly one attached to Glasgow Queen St. cheers Andy

Starting tomorrow - Thursday 02nd August, the Crewe Heritage centre is holding a 4 day celebration of 47 192 being in preservation for 30 years, along with the resident APT. The following has been lifted from the CHC site: We are holding a four day event from Thursday to Sunday 2nd to 5th August 2018 to commemorate 30 Years since the APT-P and Class 47 D1842 entered preservation at Crewe Heritage Centre. With the recent return of the 2nd APT Power Car, which is now undergoing an external repaint, we now have all the remaining APT-P vehicles at the Heritage Centre once more. We hope to have some of the original APT-P engineers and technicians present over the weekend to talk about their experiences working on the original project. Our Class 47 D1842/47192 was the first of its class to enter preservation and arrived at the Centre in the autumn of 1988 and is currently in the exhibition hall undergoing bodywork repairs and a full repaint into original two-tone green livery with small yellow panel. In addition we will have a selection of visiting model railway layouts including 45C Westland and Glasgow Queen Street EM (under construction), plus trade support from D J Models and Kernow Model Rail Centre. There will be displays from HS2, Network Rail and various sales stands including the Woodhead Railway Heritage Group, Class 504 Preservation Society, Ivatt Diesel Re-creation Society and Telford Steam Railway. We will also have all our regular attractions available including 3 signal boxes, U.S. model railway layouts and 7 1/4 inch gauge miniature railway. Light refreshments will be available in our café and our shop will be open as usual. On the Saturday and Sunday it is hoped to have a bus shuttle operating between Crewe Station and the Heritage Centre. STOP PRESS: Thanks to Freightliner (UK) and work by members of the 37108 Group we are pleased to announce that Class 47 47830 ‘Beechings Legacy’ will be present on site for all four days of our event. Full details are available on the CHC website here: https://crewehc.org/

Even with the advent of 21st century models and the high fidelity finish which comes with them, there's always still room for improvement. I think at the moment we've really never had it so good, with smaller cottage industries having sprung up with after market detailing bits aplenty. On top of the already mentioned manufacturers, you have people like Shawplan ( who is now more and more producing bits under the banner of Extreme Etchings ), plus smaller independants such as PenBits, who provide etched brass sprung chassis kits for various 4mm Diesel Locos. Usual disclaimer applies, no attachment to any of these, just a very satisfied customer. cheers Andy

May I suggest you look into fitting some Extreme Etchings/Shawplan Laserglazing. Makes a whole world of difference to the look of the coach once fitted, easy to use, and you can then throw the old glazing into the bin. Shawplan regularly tour the exhibition circuit, but Brian does have a website where you can order stuff from. cheers Andy

Depending on where you live, you could do a lot worse than visit the Crewe Heritage Centre, link here: https://crewehc.org There is a wealth of info around the site on various parts of Crewe works, and as you can see from the 360 clip on the homepage, it still has part of the defunct narrow gauge bridge and a wagon in place on top of it. Well worth a visit as part of your research. Hope this helps Cheers Andy

The problem there, is that everyone was presuming OR were going to get both grey's correct as per B.R spec - as Bachmann have done, Precision, Railmatch et al...............as the latter's got theirs pretty much spot on to the B.R spec, again, it was assumed that OR would do the same............unfortunately, as has been said in many posts already, none of us reckoned with them opting for the advice given by a colour blind buffoon. What did David Brent from the Office say about assuming? ......."To assume makes an ass out of you and me" cheers Andy

Correct Bob. They have unwittingly taken on board the ramblings of someone who doesn't know what he's talking about, but is very good at convincing everyone that he does - I've first hand experience of this from that person........ The other side of it of course though, is that OR have had chance to rectify the problem but it would seem that they are sticking put with the affore mentioned blagger. Royal Oak, whilst you are correct in what you say about the weathering of paint etc etc, whichever depot painted a particular coach/Loco, they had a standard paint pantone which had to be adhered to no matter what geographic location the works were in. Any paint, if it's the same pantone, will not be sufficiently different to another paint applied by another depot so that the difference is visible. Weathering does have an effect, but again, only sufficiently to differentiate a few vehicles to some others mildly. The difference between the OR Inter-City colours, compared to the Bachmann colours and also the shades supplied in pots by Precision, Railmatch etc etc is a universe away. Bachmann, Precision, railmatch paint are all so similar to each other youi cannot see any difference at all. cheers Andy

Agreed Bob, they've just been very, VERY badly advised on the livery, but instead of asking someone who knows what they're talking about, they've stuck with what they were told in the first place. You'ld think really, that when dozens of modellers have all informed them that they've got it wrong, they would check and double check themselves that the one 'advisor' who keeps on getting their 'advice' totally out of phase, wasn't or was, talking out of his exhaust port. cheers Andy

Just goes to show that they a/ don't bother reading forums such as this, and b/ don't care what their customer base is saying. Either way they've lost sales because of it. Even one sale lost in business is unacceptable when it can easily be remedied - those that don't mind the livery mismatch would buy the product anyway, but where's the sense in getting it so wrong that the modellers who very much mind, will not now buy it..........................only mad admirals would scupper their own flagship.......... cheers Andy

Yes, the darker blue was trialled at first before they settled on the lighter blue. The correctly named colour is Provincial Light Blue. cheers Andy

Well, i'm not a professional modeller - far from it. I simply want to show the work I do at home, in an exhibition environment and to the best of my ability. It's that simple really. Yes, you're quite right, we all are entitled to our opinions BUT! I was brought up in this hobby, to understand that people at an exhibition had paid good money to see the very best of what is available out there. It was that mantra that spurred me on to keep pushing my own boundaries and to try to improve on my previous efforts. Which is why I find it so frustrating that a Professional outfit like Oxford, and I can include Heljan in this comment as well, repeatedly churn out stuff that is totally iinnacurate. Heljan have got form as long as my arm for that and I wouldn't want to see a company, who are prepared to invest the money in development, risk it all by getting something as simple as the livery wrong. Then you've got the below equipment module carrier that's way to wide, bogies that are far to narrow.............the bogie issue is a huge problem for Em and P4 modellers, because Oxford have seen fit to make them so narrow that EM and P4 wheelsets can't be slipped in........and there are a lot of P4/Em scottish modellers out there. The excuse for that I got told, was that they had to ensure the coaches would traverse train set curves..........all very admirable, but the easiest option there would have been make the bogies the correct width in the first place, then utilise longer axles on 16.5mm back to back tolerances........that way, everyone would be happy plus the whole model wouldn't look as though it's tiptoeing it's knockneed way through the Tulips. The bogie problem won't affect OO modellers I know, but there's plenty out there who have been put off because of the unecessary blunder with the livery. ANY lost sales for a company is bad news, which is why I find itotally incomprehensible that they have either not listened, refused to put all the errors right or probably both - it just doesn't make sense for any business to operate under those circumstances. cheers Andy