BigAndy

In my haste to get the coach ready for Glasgow, I failed to remove the CDL emergency release handle...........doh! I will rectify that, but thought I'd just pop this on here before Flood of this parish comes along and shoots me down in flames!!! cheers Andy

Thanks for the kind comments guys. Bob Reid has messaged me about starting another thread, which he will post, devoted solely to the alterations done on the OR MK3. I've got an FO currently taken apart and awaiting to be dunked into the DOT4, so I'll make sure I take some how 2 photo's as per Craig's suggestion and then it's there for anyone who wants to have a go. Of course, these are just my own musings and findings, if we have a devoted thread to it then if anyone comes up with an easier or better way of doing things, then it can all be put on there. Over to you Bob! cheers Andy

I can only echo what everyone else is saying Jeremy - superb stuff. I too have a young family, so I know the difficulties in juggling work, family and railway modelling. I'm pretty certain one day that you will have a series of professionally taken photographs to accompany an article in a well known publication! cheers Andy

Sorry for not aking any of the 2f's themselves, but got these two of the DBSO - it looked very, very nice.......... Incidentally, in answer to my question, I was told they would be hitting the shleves in October....

Ok guys, here's my update from the MK3a that Iv'e been doing this last week and from ModelRail Scotland. I'm going to put up a few fots of the 3a I've done this week - be gentle as it has been done in a bit of a rush and considerably more care will be taken with the intended rakes for the layout, As is, this vehicle will just about pass muster once it's finished, as there is a lot of detail still to be added and also once it's weathered. I've been putting on here mini updates with things that i personally have found with the OR 3a, so I'm not going to go over those again, as they are on here but several posts up. I took the coach with me to Glasgow in order for various bods to have a look at and take on board their comments. Most importantly, I had a good long chat with the chap on the OR stand, who graciously gave me a fair bit of his time and was very pleasant to chat with - I do apologise, but I never got his name. Anyway, I unwrapped my ScotRail liveried 3a and we had a good chat initially about the dreaded livery issue. I have used Precision paints to respray this coach and the colours are about as perfect a match to the real thing as you can get. What it does show is how completely wrong the OR model is......... Now before anyone mentions lighting conditions, cameras, wash plants, UV wear or anything else, I think it's fair to say that if OR had got the livery somewhere near, then any of those issues could be argued. However, taken indoors, outdoors or whatever, the difference in the actual visible spectrum of the colours between OR's choice of livery and the precision colours are complete polar opposites - in fact they're not even in the same hemisphere I'm afraid........... I pointed this out to the OR rep and he eventually took my coach over to the Bachmann stand and compared it to their Exec/Swallow liveried MK2f's and the DBSO they had on show - result? Hardly any difference in the two whatsoever. Again, before anyone says that the 2f's and DBSO are pre-production paint jobs - which granted they are, in the interests of fairness, I also took my coach over to the Model Railway association of Scotlands stand and asked to put their brand new 47/7, which sold in bucketloads btw, next to my 3a. Result? Everyone agreed that there was no distinguishable colour difference between Bachmann's choice of Executive Dark Grey/ Executive Light Grey and the Precision grey's on my 3a................ This then leaves me in no doubt whatsoever that OR's livery is so wrong, that it leaves me astonished as to how they managed to pluck defeat out of the jaws of victory with it. The most positive side of all this was that the OR rep made several notes on the subject and promised to forward these findings directly to the project co-ordinators at OR.......and apparently it wasn't just me that raised this issue, but a lot of modellers had been stopping off to discuss this important issue. What we have here, is a potentially damaging ( to OR sales ) situation whereby you can buy a Bachmann 47/7 in the correct livery, a Bachmann DBSO in the correct livery and slap 4 or 5 OR 3a's in between which will then stand out like the proverbial thumb. I was asked what my opinion on this was and replied that OR should match Bachmann's livery with their own as soon as possible - more notes made in his notebook, which can only be good. Now we move on to the myraid of other issues, which may or may not be of interest depending on the fidelity of the model you're happy to settle with. For me, there was a huge issue of the module carrier underneath the bodywork, and the bogies - all of which, as they come on the OR3a, make it look top heavy. I made numerous comparisons ( again described in previous posts ) with photos, the Joueff3a and Lima/Hornby 3's. What I found, was that the module tray itself, although dimensionally correct at the top and the whole length, was almost a scale foot to wide at the bottom - in other words, it didn't angle down sharply enough downwards and inwards. Solution to this was quite drastic and not for the faint hearted, but I decided that if it worked, it would provide a quick and simple solution. In essence, I cut a slice down the entire length of the module tray and up each end, to the tune of 3mm. The resulting gap was then pinched together and Cyanoacrylated together ( I was concerned it would bow the chassis sides, but it didn't ). I then mixed some car body filler and smoothed the bottom of the now pitched module floor, level with the sides so I had a completely flat module bearer once more. Job done. For the bogies, I have used Stenson models etched brass subframes, which are rediculously easy to construct, by folding up and soldering. The OR bogies sides were cut off the centre stretcher and glued to the side of the Stenson subframes - again job done. Ultrascale EM wheelsets were also fitted. It's interesting to note that for ALL bogies, the maximum width should be 32mm in 4mm scale - it is a standard dimension based upon the loading gauge and works out at 8 feet in real terms. After completing the brass subframes and adding the OR sides, the bogie width comes out at nearly 30mm - not far off, but as standard the OR bogie is 26.3mm..........quite a way out. Now I know that OR have to accomodate these models traversing very sharp radius train set curves, which is fair enough, but they are far to narrow to accomodate EM wheelsets, never mind P4. What would have been a good compromise, would have been a wider bogie and fit a longer axle for OO modellers. Maybe something for OR to have a think about. Lastly, to the window frames and glazing. The frames themselves are ok....ish and the glazing is not too bad either, but as I wanted to go that little bit further, I fitted the Extreme etchings frames and more interestingly is the fact that EE's laserglazing fits perfectly into the OR rebate. Result! No having to file openings which takes a LOT of time. The plus side with the EE frames are that Brian Hanson has faithfully reproduced the real thing in miniature, which means of course that the frequently mentioned 'Silver' on the ScotRail livery around the frames can be achieved. Visually, there are two parts to the MK3 window frames and it is the INNER part only that is left in alluminium, the outer section is Executive Dark Grey - the same as the body. Sadly, the OR frames are a one piece moulding only - same as Lima/Hornby, which means that if OR decide to paint a Silver colour to the frames, it would make them look far too thick............If anyone from OR is reading this, PLEASE look at a way of reproducing the silver effect by lining only half of your moulded frames - it would make them look so much better. All in all, I found this was an extremely easy and simple fix to the issues raised on here about the OR 3a. Like I said before, these are entirely my own findings and if you're happy with them out of the box, noone should tell you how to run your railway! Oh almost forgot, for those interested, I found that the light grey band above the windows on the TSO and the yellow First class band on the FO were too small on the OR model. As it comes from OR, the band is 2.5 mm overall including the orange cantrail lining - whereas the band itself should be 2.5mm, THEN the 0.5 orange cantrail lining on top - making 3mm. Doesn't sound a lot, but it does actually make a big difference visually. cheers Andy PS I wholeheartedly apologise for the quality of the fots - taken on my mobile phone camera!

Thing is though, they're not 107's......they're just 108's dressed up in sheep's clothing! cheers Andy

Evening, or should I say morning Craig, It's been a long few days trying to get this 3a ready to take to Glasgow with me this weekend! This evening, I've just managed to get the top coat of Matt Varnish on - it's now in ScotRail blue stripe btw, so that's going to dry overnight and then I'll attempt to fit the laserglazing tomorrow. If the Sun's out, I'll try to take a couple of fots at the stage it is now - if nothing else, I can post a photo of the chassis now its all back together. Whether I'll get to do all that tomorrow is debateable at the moment - it's half term here, so I've got a 10 year old and a 6 year old to entertain, as my wife's working......! Worst case scenario is I'll post photos after I get back from Scotland, so aim for Monday or Tuesday. Thanks for the interest and I hope everyone will be able to see the difference. cheers Andy

Just to add a little extra on the subject of the OR MK3 - having taken it all apart and studied what needs doing, I've found that the bogies are in fact about 3mm to narrow........almost a scale foot then. To rectify it, I've used the Stenson Models rigid MK3 brass etch - it's designed for the LIma MK3, but I've used a smaller washer than the ones Phil provides, but everything else is the same. It cetainly makes a big difference. cheers Andy

If I could just echo what Rex has said about very fine wet and dry. 800 is very fine, but personally I use 1200 - and most importantly, use very little pressure and just let the friction of the wet and dry do the work. Do try and get hold of some IPA though ( IsoPropyl Alcohol ). In England, most industrial chemists sell it and I am very fortunate that I have one in Macclesfield where I live. Costs me about £25 for 2 litres. It's so much better to use that than wet and dry, combined with a couple of cotton buds. cheers Andy

You're right, he does! Apologies. It was the Joueff Laserglazing that I trial fitted. As Brian himself said to me the other day - it's amazing that Joueff got it virtually right all those years ago. There's not a vast amount wrong with the OR glazing tbh, it's just that as with most RTR glazing, it's not just quite flush - but a very fine attempt and better than anything else RTR out there. cheers Andy

At a rough first glance, it would appear so Tractor, yes. I held up an EE frame to the OR opening - admittedly the etching was still on the frame, so hardly a scientific analysis, but it looked very close indeed. Wolf27 - I just want to clear this undertray thang up a bit. Dimensionally, there is very little in length and depth between all the manufacturers, which would indicate that all three got there measurements correct. However, both Lima and Joueff have got there undertray to angle downward along the full length, at what appears to be at close to correct proportions - but it's the OR undertray that is noticeably wrong by way of not angling enough from coach underside to the floor of the tray ( closest to rail height ). Easiest way to describe it is, to look along the length of the coach at floor height - it becomes clear the OR version is sadly not sloping inward anywhere near enough. cheers Andy

Great photos guys, thanks. Just as a mini update, on initial findings it would appear to me that the Joueff undertray is 2mm narrower at the bottom of the rake than the OR model, and a Lima MK3 undertray is a massive 3 1/2 mm narrower than the OR version...... Also, interestingly, Extreme Etchings Laserglaze fits perfectly into the OR window opening. cheers Andy

Interesting that Shane. If he was the one holding the tape measure and he's satisfied, then we have no reason to dispute what he's saying. The issue is though, it may well be dimensionally correct, but the angle of rake on the undertray is sufficiently far enough out to throw the eye and make it look as though it's top heavy or the bogies are the wrong thickness etc etc. I'm not clever enough to put a photo up here of what I mean, maybe someone who knows about these things, can find a fot looking down the length of a MK3 at undertray level and then compare it to the OR, Lima and Joueff versions. What's the phrase? A picture paints a thousand words! cheers Andy

I was looking at that yes Bob! You're right tbh, like I say I'm no expert and the info I have gleaned is from an engineer who works on MK3's........so maybe his eye is better than mine at picking small mistakes like that up. Now that you've posted that fot of the bogie absolutely slap sideways on, it's true - nothing to really write home about and nothing to worry about correcting. Lima and Joueff did exactly the same, so if anyone feels the need to rectify it, then it's got to be done on any of the rtr bogies. Good news is, the OR body is out of the Dot4 and only needed a very light scrubbing with IPA and the paint has lifted straight off. Time to crack the scalpel out. cheers Andy

Funnily enough Bob, after putting up my previous post, I had exactly the same thought as you re the bogies. I'm not in a position to etch my own stuff though, but I've recentlly purchased about 8 coaches worth of the Stenson models brass subframes, so I'll have a look at that as well whilst I'm at it. The OR bogie has the stretcher modelled across the ends, which makes it very difficult to get 28mm axles in - the tyres themselves though should just clear the inside of the plastic frames. I was looking at having to cut the stretcher anyway, in order to get some play in the bogie sides so that I could pry in the EM wheelsets, so it may just be as easy to make up the Stenson brass subframes and go from there.....we'll see. The OR bogie frames themselves are roughly 2/3rds of the thickness of a Lima bogie, so there might not be a lott of thinning down needed tbh, again, we'll see. Having just held up the OR bogie next to some detail photos ive got of the real thing, I must say that they really are quite nice and capture the look of the prototype, with everything being where it's supposed to be. As I've mentioned previously though, OR have committed the same mistake as every single other producer of a mk3, and have modelled the air suspension unit in the deflated position - whether that can be easily rectified as well will be something else I'll have a look at. cheers Andy

Thanks for the info Bob. Yeah, agreed. I'm also fitting EM wheelsets which may ( or may not ) help the top heavy issue. The bogies themselves are quite a nice bit of engineering - quite fine in places and the plastc is a lot thinner than, say, a Lima MK3 bogie. Putting the OR bogie on top of the Lima bogie shows that they are both very comaparible in width - the difference being negligible really. So we'll see what transpires! Very handy photo that btw Bob. cheers Andy

Yep. I'd agree Tractor. There is also a small hole in the top of the bogie that looks suspiciously like it's meant for a wire to go through, plus the wheelsets themselves are on pinpoint axles which locate into a small length of metal connecting both wheelsets on the same side - wheels are also on insulated axles, as you say, all points to either lighting was initially planned, will be in the future or it's been handily designed to make it easier for the modeller to fit their own bespoke lighting. I haven't yet seen the review in Rail Express, so all these points I'm raising here may well have already been picked up on. I've compared the chassis of a Lima Mk3, a Joueff 3a and the OR 3a - both Joueff and Lima 3's have virtually identical rake angles on the undertray, whilst the OR version is extremely noticeable in its lack of angle when put side by side with the other two. What I will say about the OR chassis now I've taken the whole coach down to component parts, is that the undertray is hollow ( admittedly the weights sit in it ) but it makes it a lot easier to make a cut the full length , in order to be able to fold the undertray back on itself to the required angle - 'twill be an interesting couple of days for me, because if it all works out, then I can live with everything else and respray this into ScotRail. I'll try and post a couple of photos up of how I go about cutting the tray - if you hear nothing, consider it that I've thrown the whole thing in the bin! Incidentally, the glazing came out gratifyingly easy and the body is now currently luxuriating itself in the Dot 4 brake bath. cheers Andy

Regarding these 3a's then...... Having had a crawl over one in my sweaty mitt, it would seem to me and a couple of others that the under tray is too 'square looking', in other words, it should be more angled down and inwards from the bodyside down to the ground...... What's the opinion of the bods on here? I'm going to take a CO to bits, strip it and respray it - having taken the CD lights off - into ScotRail.......but I want to have a go at altering this undertray if I can ( not even sure whether it's possible yet ), just wanted views from others though........ cheers Andy

Thanks for the replies guys. Wild Boar, yes it's one of the newer tooled versions with the under fairing set back between the buffer beam and the leading bogie. cheers Andy

Hello all, Bit of a random question this one, but as I've never detailed a Hornby DVT, I want to ask a couple of things. Do any of you good people know whether the front end of a 12" to the foot DVT is the same as a 90? The reason I ask is that I have a DVT I'm doing up but it was in Virgin livery, however, having stripped it and started to research the model of a Swallow livveried DVT, there's some quite obvious differences on the earlier DVT's to what they looked like when in Virgin colours. Mainly, the bottom of the fairing on the front end is flush on earlier DVT's whereas on Virgin flavoured DVT's, the fairing was further back - which is how Hornby have modelled it, also the buffers were more like a 90 and I would want to replace the windscreen on the Hornby version. PH Designs does a class Hornby 90 upgrade kit, and I was wondering whether this kit would be suitable to represent the earlier Swallow liveried DVT? Thanks in advance Andy

Absolutely nothing. The Hornby MK3 is a perfectly good representation of a MK3 not MK3a and details up very nicely indeed. Personally, I'll be using Hornby/Lima MK3's for my HST sets on the layout - as has been said above, some detailing bits, laserglaze, close coupling, corridor connections and there you go. I think everyones disappointment stems from the OR ones being ever so nearly there........but not quite there enough to used on exhibition layouts where a percentage of the audience are highly skilled, clued up modellers who would instantly recognise that they were the incorrect OR 3a's. For those modellers who don't have such concerns, happy days, fill yer boots. cheers Andy

That looks very nice indeed Andrew. I too am in the Oxford v Joueff wrangle. I was hoping against all hope that the OR 3a's were going to be a straight shoe in for Glasgow Queen St (EM) but all the issues raised on here, plus my own observations have made me think quite hard about the way forward. I've purchased a lot of Joueff 3a's in the past, but delayed doing anything with them when I initially found about the OR model. What I will say goes in favour of the OR 3a's is the ends and eth detail, but that can be added to Joeff coaches quite easily. Again, picking up on the brittleness issue, in order to re-glaze a joueff coach, the whole of the roof has to be extracted and the glazing cut away - not for the faint hearted. Mind you, I've had a couple of Lima Mk3's splinter in that direction too, so there's always going to be some sort of problem! I've now only got approx 12 months before Queen St debuts at the Macclesfield exhibition in 2019 ( albeit in a very unfinished state ), so I need to stop procrastinating and start doing something with the Joueff coaches...................who'd be a modeller!! cheers Andy

And they still managed to get it completely wrong. The last thing I want to do is kick a man whilst he's down.....BUT......having spent the weekend at Stafford show, I thought I'd conduct my own field test and spoke with several known experts on the subject ( no names ) The general concensus is as follows: The livery is totally wrong with the light grey not being 'Buff' enough and the dark grey being too dark. The ribs on the roof are wrong The body side looks too deep and therefore makes the underskirt well look as though its sitting too far down, if indeed the skirt isn't too deep as well. The 1st class logo is the wrong shade. These are not my findings as I am in no way an expert on MK3a's, but several of the guys I spoke too are, including one who works on them for a living ( engineer that is, not on board train crew ). I find it as dissapointing as everyone else, as these were planned as a shoe in straight onto my layout when the ScotRail versions are released. If they get the livery right on those, I may well live with the other faults - we'll see, but if they release the ScotRail versions with the same issues as the Inter-City releases, then It's going to be a strip and re-spray for me. If that's the case, I'm sticking with my Joueff MK3a's and put all the work into them as I know I can get them nearer to being correct than the OR ones. Cheers Andy

You could well cut and paste that comment for virtually every exhbition there is in the land! Huge thanks to Colin for inviting me and Dave along to abuse more plastic. Dave had lots of favourable comments on the redundant signal gantry he is bulding for Glasgow Queen St whilst I myself had a blast of a weekend. From the few chances I had to walk around and have a look, the standard of exhibits was incredibly high - it all passed far to quickly but the atmosphere was just great and everyone seemed to be having a great time. The Glasgow Queen St (EM) team will be feverishly working our little tushes off over the next 12 months, to get the layout ready for it's debut at the Macclesfield show in 2019. If all goes well and Colin is still speaking to me by then, the layout will be appearing at Stafford in 2020, so we all look forward to that one! cheers Andy

Interesting. Not had one in my greasy mitt yet, but a good mate of mine has bought two and confirms that the bogies are going to need some attention in order to fit EM wheelsets. He's told me that the 26mm axles will fit, just, but are a bit on the tight side. it may be a case of boring out the plastic framed axle and fit a Top Hat bearing - if the plastic is thick enough to take that treatment. The other question is whether the outside of the tyre will rub on the inside of the frame...........might be a case of building a brass subframe ( someone like Colin Craig's or Stenson models as it is now ) then cut off the Oxford bogie sides and glue them to the brass subframe. One thing that has been discussed amongst me and a couple of others - in the shots of the EP, the air suspension bag on the bogie was modelled in the collapsed position ( Lima, Joueff, Hornby have all done the same in the past ), if running in a raft, it should be inflated - can anyone confirm whether they're full or flat?! Regarding the door lights and handle issue with the ScotRail ones, I too am eagerly awaiting whether provision will be made to be able to run them prior to 1993 ( when the CDL lights and handles were fitted ) - hope so, otherwise it's a strip, cut 'em off and respray time..... cheers Andy