hayfield

Tim

With copperclad the rail is held vertical

As the good captain has said you may need a bit of gauge widening

Looks like you have mastered the basics of Templot

Just been having thoughts about the number of chairs needed to complete the main trackwork on the layout. With approximately 85 metres of track at 200 chairs per metre, that is 17,000 chairs. At a nominal £27.50 per 500 C+L chairs that is almost £1000. As almost everything on the layout is being scratchbuilt, that is a lot of money which could be better spent on electrics and rolling stock

 

The sleepers/timbers will number about about 8,500, at 750 per sheet of 310mm x 310mm ply, that works out at approx 12 sheets. I still have 8 in stock, so the extra cost is minimal

 

I was wondering if there is a more cost effective way of making the chairs  , still sticking with ply sleepers. Will be back with some possible solutions

Ron

Whilst I appreciate the fact that everything is being scratch built to the highest standards there must be a time when certain compromises are worthwhile.

Once my railway room is finished I will be building my own version of Bodmin General, trackwork is my main interest and I try and build it to the best of my ability using the plastic components used in the Exactoscale kits but to both 00 and EM gauge standards, this allows me to use the check rail, common crossing and switch rail chairs and if building either diamond crossings or slips the appropriate chairs. As far as I am concerned the trackwork separates into 3 categories

First category is fully visible, the second is plain track which is obscured by structures, third catagory is odd scene

The first category which includes turnouts, crossings and plain track will all be hand built using separate chairs with key detail

The second category will be plain track obscured by platforms, buildings or inlaid track which will be 4 mm scale RTR flexi track

The third category will be using the cheapest method available

I understand those who wish to add detail which is not seen just because its there, but with any project a line must be drawn somewhere, whilst turnouts are different (in my opinion) any plain track which will be partially or fully obscured is acceptable to be built using commercially made flexitrack, both financial and time saving grounds

I am not too certain what Phil's attitude is to giving a discount for large bulk orders, but Peter was always open to discuss discounts on very large orders. Might be worthwhile asking for quotes on bulk packs

I don't care where it comes from as long as quality, price and delivery time meet my requirements.

I certainly agree with you providing it is not pretending to be something its not.

30 plus years ago we used to buy fake copies (especially when abroad) of something knowing they were fake copies just for a laugh. Trouble is that the world has moved on, least of all we now know more about copyrights, but most of all a lot of these activities are connected with criminal gangs, people trafficking etc 

To be frank using thin spacers cut from 1 mm double sided copperclad will be the quickest method, using a slitting disk to remove any excess. I would still go down the route of only soldering every third sleeper and just threading plastic chairs on the rail for the non soldered sleepers, or doing the same but use short panel pins on every third sleeper 

And how many RTR locos get bought and just put in the display cabinet? People who proudly claim collections of one, two or more hundreds of locos surely are no different to others with a stack of (probably fewer) kits.

Jol

Whilst totally agreeing with you about displaying items, people collect things for different reasons. Just look at the various shows which thrive on antiques/second hand goods

On the other hand I am very pleased having a collection of all the K's wagon and coach kits in their variants that were available to the retail market (Has anyone got a motor rail kit that don't want). These are in some cases very poor models, but something I like. Just started collecting the 009 kits (well I have 2 examples so far None of these are on display, perhaps they should be ?

C&L prices on rail/track have taken a big jump in price, certainly in 00 bullhead PECO is going to put all these products out of business , currently its £4/yard ( 915mm) in packs of 25 , thats approaching half C&L 00 gauge track .  

 

of course thats no use for EM !!!

I think your assumption on the effect of Peco track would be correct if C&L relied wholly on 00 gauge track. In fact Peco flexi track only completes with half of C&L's 00 gauge flexi track range and its the Exactoscale fast track bases (C&L thick flexi track) 

I take the opposite view, the introduction of 4 mm scale track in 00 gauge will open up a whole new market where a certain section of 00 gauge modellers will see the visual enhancement that 4 mm trackwork has over 3-5 mm scale trackwork,. Thus wanting items that are not available through Peco and either build or have built items using the C&L and Exactoscale parts.

There is even one reply talking about kit bashing the turnout into a different configuration, and the turnout is not even on sale !!.

Secondly I think there may well be a small amount of 00 gauge modellers who after seeing the difference scale size and spacing makes in 00 gauge will take the bigger step of going to EM gauge, to visually enhance the looks of trackwork further. In terms of 00 gauge modellers it will be very small, but in terms of those already modelling in EM gauge it will be very large.

The next game changer will be further advances in 3D printing

The one issue you will face is that all chairs are designed to hold the rail above the sleeper/timber. Not too certain about whitemetal chairs (the ones I have seen were coarse scale) but the C&L and Exactoscale chairs hold the rail 1 mm above the sleeper/timber. The problem you will encounter if you solder the rail directly to the copperclad is that the chair will not fit into the recesses of the rail as its too high

One solution is to raise the rail up by 1 mm. This can be done several ways, one I have used is to use slivers of 1 mm thick copperclad ground back to the width of the rail. drill holes in the copperclad and fit (lill or panel) pins, which can be soldered to both the copperclad and rail. In 00 gauge it was the norm to do this every third sleeper/timber using card or wooden sleepers/timbers in between, given the cost of copperclad this is a very economical building method. C&L or Exactoscale chairs could be used functionally on these and cut in half for the soldered joints 

To be quite honest unless you have lots of cheap copperclad timber strips, ply strips would be far more cost effective

Have you used the front of the envelope for that first sketch?  Is that allowed!

Only when its in P4 gauge  

Loco arrived and better than expected, well painted just needing the odd black paint touch up, only issue no backhead which is not noticeable and a driver and fireman will certainly hide this from any prying eyes. One step is bent and may need replacing as I guess it will snap off if reshaped. Issue with the chassis mounting bolt also, thankfully easy to solve 

In two ways the chassis is better than expected, has coupling rods, most of the etched spacers not used. as the (hand built) pickup spacer will need to be removed and a little work is needed on the brake hangers I will un-do the chassis and re-space to EM gauge, will need a Highlevel gearbox where the gear wheel is under the motor (Road runner or Load hauler)

Very pleased indeed, perhaps I should have written "A SEF M7 body built and painted for £29.95 plus postage, which includes parts for an etched chassis

Thanks John.

 

I'll take a look at the link shortly.  

 

Im thinking that once i've got the track plan nailed down, which i'm almost there with, then the big first task is to get the fiddle yard sidings laid as they will all be covered (with accessibility points) by the scenic boards, so I cannot do anything until those roads are down. Im going to go with Code 83 and copper clad sleepers for the fiddle yard track, then move to more detailed trackwork for the scenic areas where it can be seen and photographed.  Sounds like I am starting a fun game ... but i'm sure it will be worth it.  The project is a long-term one, and not quick put it together, sell and move onto the next, so i want to make sure i get it as right as possible.  As i want to do photographs and that of the models, I also want to make sure it looks as good as possible.

 

The one thing i like with Colin's approach is being able to solder the track to the copper clad sleepers, then add the cosmetic clips subsequently, sounds a bit less fiddly than sliding chair after chair after chair onto rail!

 

Richie

In the old days of austerity it was common practice to make the fiddle yards this way as they only used every third sleeper.

As for threading the fixings verses soldering directly to the copperclad then soldering cosmetic chairs, good luck. I cannot comment about Colin's products but just look at my thread when I built the Masso kit

As for sliding chairs on the ST baseplates are simplicity in action. Dress the end of the rail which slides on to the baseplate, with the baseplate still on its sprue slide the rail on, then cut from the sprue. Easily mastered in a few seconds. But use which ever method that pleases you. 

Looks a bit like a cut down version of Bodmin General where to run around the coaches the loco has to push the coaches clear of the crossover, then push them back once at the other end

Have a play with Templot and try and use A5's if possible, perhaps changing the switch to a shorter GWR one (ask advice on the Templot Forum

Word of warning with the Timbers, use a stain which is not waxy, I still have spirit based Colron tin. I think the issue may be with Dyes, have been reports of issues with some products. Do a test then if all OK stain in a batch

I tend to mix up a batch in a jam jar 50/50 (in my case white spirit), much better doing it too thin, I just brush on and let dry on cardboard. If water based a stronger dilution with a less generous application may be preferable

Also use the recommended solvents, I use Butanone as you need a stronger bond with plastic on to ply

Sort of get where you are coming from, and agree that well built and detailed track can be made to 00 gauge, finescale models on finescale track (all be it a little narrower), sounds good 

Have you bought a tin helmet ? as some on both sides of the argument seem to be a bit entrenched  with their views and lacking understanding/tolerance to alternative ideas 

Trackwork can either be as easy or as complicated as you wish,

I was hoping to try and replicate a flatbottom turnout in as much detail as an Exactoscale bullhead kit, I gave up the idea due to both the complexity and size of modern turnouts, Have a look at the MMRS link to concrete sleepers and fixings and see how many variations that were produced. In the end I settled on 1.6 mm thick plastic timbers, C&L ST baseplates, 4 bolt slide chairs and a few spares from Exactoscale switch and common crossing frets. Once ballasted looked fine and relatively easy and inexpensive to make

Manchester Model Railway Society link http://www.mmrs.co.uk/technical-articles/modern-permanent-way/

Look forward to seeing how the ideas and plan develop, how do you plan to widen the track gauge of 00 tracks to P4?

In my drive to obtain a fleet of locos on etched chassis I picked up a Southeastern M7 chassis built but no motor, gears, drivers or coupling rods,

I have a set of Romford/Markit drivers for the loco and think I have coupling rods, have motors but will need a decent gearbox rather than a motor mount. On the face of it paying £29.95 + postage is slightly cheaper than £32 plus postage and its built, but a nicely made and painted body is thrown in with the deal, the full kit is £89.90 plus postage

Looks like I will have the odd older Wills M7 for sale with a white metal chassis, and guess they will fetch about a similar amount, fair swap I think

Don't wish to put a dampener on the Idea but most novice track builders have trouble with the common crossing not the switch, but I do see that having a working robust switch is a benefit, then there is the cost (which most baulk at when bullhead kits are mentioned) adding additional parts to a £30 turnout. Still I guess the idea will be of interest to some.

Perhaps their will be a new market in Peco large radii common crossings

Richie

Colin's crafted items do look very good and he does have specialist knowledge in this area, one word of warning if his system is anything like the Masokits, then they will extremely challenging to build. I built a Maso kits etched turnout even adjusting for the additional time the first build takes, it will be an extremely prolonged process when compared building a turnout using either Peco, C&L or Exactoscale components.

Building in EM gauge will still be a compromise, both in gauge and also in the reduction in turnout length/size I would think about what you are trying to achieve.

The first thing will be to sort out a track plan and decide what size turnouts you will require, once you have that information you can then choose which system/method suites your project

Thanks for that - Colin's site is superb, i've sent him an email!

 

 

 

 

Again, thanks for that, it really helps. I think i'm getting myself all mixed up somewhere along the line!  But thanks for the line of thought re plain line and S&C.

 

 

 

Cheers John - thats a big help.  Do you suggest Code 82 rail or EMGS Code 83?

 

 

Richie

 

C&L ST baseplates were designed for code 82 rail. Check with the stores manager as to compatiblety with code 83

 

As far as I know the C&L ST base plates do not hold the rail at an angle but upright, it’s a very easy system to use. If you are hoping to use code 82 with the society’s filing jigs I think they will not be compatible. Just use a home made card template and do it by eye

Rich

Richie

Use the Exactoscale turnout timbering packs ( no timber grain). Each pack will make between 2.5 & 3 turnouts. Use the C&L ST base plates with code 82 rail

Interesting idea.. there must be some reason though that everyone uses ply?

Good quality ply will retain its shape and I guess is much stronger than wood for punching holes in when the use or rivets was the norm. I also assume ply is both cheaper and easy to get than wood strip, its also laser cut so is more accurate than using a saw blade

If they are 4 mm scale they might be the Romford wheels that were available which had been lathe turned, though Miss Prism seems to recognise them as Bonds

Would it be the case that Romford supplied a better quality casting which Bonds had finished off, which may be the ones I recall  

You'll struggle to find model railway shops, though. A lot of the tack shops/saddleries in Central London disappeared years ago. I don't go into inner London anymore unless a client needs me to go to Court.

Agree

I stopped going to both the west end and city years ago, the reason London looks less expensive is that everywhere else has put up their prices to match. 

Clive,

 

If you are going to make statements like that, please back them up with who said that and when they said it, otherwise........

 

Andy

Andy 

I thought it was those who wanted RTR track saying no one would pay £30 for a turnout, seems there is still a bit of friction against those who like making things !!! As for they would never sell I can think of 3 other projects mentioned on here plus another from someone who does not use this site, though DCC Concepts seems to have gone quiet on their proposals

Um, I'm not sure South Oxhey has improved.

Back in the 6's Teddy boys with cutthroat razors, all the original trouble makers have grown up, still a bit iffy but no where as bad

Sorry I was on my phone whilst on holiday and spell check kicked in Peck should have been Peco, plus I did not pick up you were using code 125 rail

Very impressive, but short of a total rebuild by lifting the rails by 1 mm to fit 7 mm chairs, having said this my idea of using the C&L ST baseplates (4SC 101B) may still work, or perhaps some 4 mm chairs. send me a PM with your address and I will send a sprue of 10 chairs of ST baseplates and some spare half chairs I have in 4 mm  scale to you

With hindsight I would have used C&L flexi track Which and glue one track/ spike the 09 out of code 82 flatbottom or the Peco Pandrol clips with code 75 flatbottom,

Must say a great idea