PGH

John, Thanks for your comments. Yes I do know Bob Harper, my K36 has had several outings to his extensive Columbia & Western RR. I know Alan through the N.Wales & W.Cheshire Area Group of the Gauge O Guild, being one of the founding members and with similar US interests. By the way I mention the "off topic" items not because I want to appear a clever dick in doing lots of stuff but merely to explain why progress on the colliery layout has been limited. At the moment I'm working on a Roundhouse 16mm scale live steam Penrhyn Railway CHARLES, trying to make it look a bit more like the real thing, and spent a few hours today at Penrhyn Castle measuring the prototype. Then there's a rake of half finished slate wagons required to go with it. However there is still a lot to describe on the colliery layout, although it might be a rather protracted affair. Regards, PGH

Yes it is, how strange that they copied some features from the old building. I've no idea what the actual purpose of the old building was but it was part of the Gin Workshops complex. Loco repairs were carried out here but phased out after the erection of a new loco erecting shop at Walkden Yard in 1953 Thanks for the offer, yes indeed I would be interested in acquiring a print or a digital scan if that would be more convenient. I would be happy to pay any costs involved, send me a PM to let me know how you want to do it. I doubt if this loco actually did any work at Gin Pit, it would have been too small for the work there. This loco and Hawthorns 244 (now preserved at the National Museum of Scotland, Edinburgh) were used to work the restricted height tunnel on the line from Howe Bridge Colliery to Bedford Basin on the Leeds & Liverpool Canal. Gin Workshops carried out loco repairs for the Gin System and some other collieries to the west, and in fact there was an agreement with the LMS for light engines to travel under their own steam over the main line for that purpose. Hawthorns 340 was noted at Gin in 1940 presumably for repair. After vesting in the NCB it was at Howe Bridge in Feb 1947 "in fair condition", but under a British Railways Movement Order dated May 1947 it went from Jacksons Sidings to Ashton Moss Colliery (to the East of Manchester) to cover a short term loco shortage. Jacksons Sidings is the main line connection to the Gin System so its assumed the loco went from Howe Bridge to Gin Shops under the existing LMS agreement for repair between Feb and May 1947. Under another BRMO dated Oct 1947 it was returned to the Atherton Area at Chanters Colliery; then Howe Bridge 1948-49; Gibfield 1950 where it was scrapped circa July 1952.

Its now 2 years since I last contributed any layout detail to this thread, how time flies ! Following that it was diverted (by others) into a rather long and unwelcome discussion on loco weathering, later removed by the moderators. Maybe its now worth a try to describe the "moving coal" aspect of the layout without any further diversions. This layout doesn't have a name, or some theoretical story about where it exists in the real prototype world, because it doesn't - its just a model railway. Considering the scale its built in and the space it occupies I couldn't pretend that it represents a colliery system with "convincing realism" (whatever that means). To do that in the space available would require 4mm scale or maybe even 2mm scale. There were (I vaguely recall, its so long ago) two main aims in building this layout. The first was to build from scratch industrial locomotives in 7mm scale. This was a time before kits were available and any thoughts of ready to run unimaginable. Unfortunately this didn't get very far and was soon diluted by the introduction of kits (sometimes only partly used - but if you've spent the money it gives you some impetus to get the thing finished) and inevitably more recently ready to run like Ixion. The second aim was to build a layout on which they could perform as much as practicable like the real thing, i.e. move coal from one end of the layout to the other, untouched by human hand except for twiddling knobs and flicking switches, and of course coupling/uncoupling three link couplings as any form of automatic coupling is a definite no no. If the visual aspects of the layout could be made reminiscent of scenes and features I recall in visiting prototype railways all well and good, but this wasn't the primary consideration. Maybe all this is the reverse of how most modellers approach the building of a layout. However progress in the last two years has been fairly minimal. A fairly major change was converting the layout from DC to DCC sound operation. This perversely required additional wiring due to the rather haphazard way the layout was previously wired in two halves with the only connection between the two via the rails on two removable sections. A start was made on additional buildings as here: based loosely on a prototype at Gin Pit, Tyldesley. , But I do have other railway modelling interests which take time, like American O Scale outdoors - having a 'Grande day out' Handlaying On3 (that's On three) track on a D&RGW inspired narrow gauge layout: and more recently dabbling in 7/8" and 16mm scale live steam: Confusing maybe, but it all makes sense to me tbc

Maybe I should resume my 'moving coal' thread as we never got to the moving coal part before it was diverted (hijacked ?) into a discussion on locomotive weathering (since thankfully removed). In the traditional (for want of a better description) screening plants there were no storage hoppers, wagons were loaded as the coal was treated. It would be screened then pass over the picking belts and be directly discharged into wagons. Obviously it would take some time to fill each wagon. The arrangement is shown in this diagram with an inclined boom conveyor discharging to the wagon. The angle of this could be adjusted and would be kept as low as possible to minimise breakage of the coal. (Illustration from "Practical Coal Mining - Volume VI" published in1913) This photo at Frances Colliery, Fife shows the inclined boom conveyor - A, the chains supporting it - B and the discharge chute - C

Sort of like this, which co-incidentally holds sufficient coal to fill 9 or 10 wagons - David (Isambarduk) has the right idea, which basically replicates the working of the prototype screens. However using vibration probably needs a fairly rigid screen structure and mine stands on columns milled from steel bar. I don't find using real coal any problem. Its carefully sized and the dust sieved out initially and at regular intervals. There is a certain amount of dust produced but that is confined to under and immediately round the screen structure - natural weathering !

Yes it was, quite some time back

One way to fill a corner:

It has been (or is being ?) done on here in 2mm scale, see: www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30175

The loco and coach were later moved into the required position under the platform canopy in the distance The locomotive was built by Hudswell Clarke in 1952 for the National Coal Board and latterly at Newmarket Colliery, Yorkshire. It was moved to Steamtown in 1979 where it was named FIREFLY. The conical chimney denotes that in the 1960s it was fitted with the Kylpor Exhaust and Hunslet underfeed stoker and gas producer combustion system, measures adopted by the NCB to comply with the Clean Air Act The development was not a success and after several years disuse was demolished in 2000. The locomotive was sold to the Dartmoor Railway and here awaits removal at the west end of the station, now in green livery with a red (!) chimney

In 1988 the redundant up slow line platform at Colwyn Bay Station was developed into a leisure facility known as "Platform 3". This incorporated a restaurant in a Mk 1 coach obtained from Steamtown Carnforth. To accompany it a steam locomotive was obtained, also from Steamtown, as a static exhibit. The development was also intended to provide a number of retail premises including a model railway shop, although this was soon relocated to the existing station building on the other side of the track. In October 1988 the loco arrived on a low loader from Steamtown, its ultimate destination being behind the glass screen on top of the embankment behind the loco The coach followed with the bogies being lifted separately

The office attached to the good shed View towards the exit tunnel, Colwyn Bay Station is beyond the trees to the right The eastern end of the tunnel was originally just a road bridge over the siding serving the gravel pit and it was later extended under the new station forecourt Western end of the tunnel Notice on the retaining wall just beyond the western entrance

The following photos were taken in April 1982, just before the track was lifted the following month.

Colwyn Bay Goods Yard occupied the site of a former gravel pit and was accessed by a steeply graded branch which passed under the station forecourt in a tunnel. The site was originally excavated during the building of the Chester & Holyhead Railway to provide material for constructing the embankment to the east of Colwyn Bay Station. Later maps show it either as a ballast pit or gravel pit with a siding connection so evidently further excavation took place there later in the 19th Century. In 1904 it was opened as the new goods yard as the first part of a comprehensive scheme which included quadrupling the main line west to Llandudno Junction and building a new Colwyn Bay Station with four platforms instead of two. It was closed in 1981 and replaced by a new yard at Llandudno Junction to make way for the new A55 trunk road and a shopping centre. Although living locally I must confess that I didn't take much interest in the yard, but in March 1976 I photographed a Class 25 on a short train waiting to depart, although the main interest was finding examples of 16t mineral wagons to model. In March 1981 40098 is about to depart on a train of 10 empty 16t mineral wagons and joins the main line after ascending the gradient from the yard On 24th September 1981 a Class 40 cleared away the remaining wagons in the yard. This was probably the last train out as the yard was officially closed on 28th September 1981.

Thanks for the offer, but if its the same view taken in the p. rain I can't really see the point.

Yes, but unfortunately they don't qualify for inclusion in this topic, however the 3 below probably do, being ex BR locos: The former D8568 at Ribblesdale Cement, Clitheroe in May 1980. The only survivor of its class and now on the Chinnor & Princes Risborough Railway. The lime encrusted 12083 at Tilcon Ltd., Swinden Works, Grassington in April 1981, now on the Battlefield Line. D2272 at British Fuel Co., Blackburn Coal Concentration Depot in July 1983, now at Peak Rail.

In July 1983 I followed 03126 working over to the Wallasey side of the docks

Birkenhead Docks - On a October 1977 visit to photograph Rea's locos at Bidston Dock and Duke Street Wharf, 08 078 was seen stabled near Duke Street. In May 1982 03 189 was also found here

Rail traffic ceased from the disposal point about 1983. In 1985 merry-go-round operation was introduced from a rapid loader at the colliery and the use of NCB locos ceased. BR trains were top and tailed with four Class 20s as seen with this distant view of a train being loaded in 1986 and passing the former exchange sidings with 20181 + 20192 leading and nearer Wigan with 20087 + 20058 at the rear. The train would have continued on to Fiddlers Ferry Power Station with just two locos.

Abram was the terminus of a freight only branch to the south east of Wigan which served as the interchange point for NCB traffic from Bickershaw Colliery. From 1975 to about 1983 it also served the adjacent NCB Opencast Executive's Albert Disposal Point and required the services of a resident 08 shunter. [Photo removed] In April 1979 the NCB loco WESTERN QUEEN and BR 08126 stand at the entrance to the sidings [Photo removed] A Class 25 arrives with two brakevans and two HAA hoppers [Photo removed] 12 months later NCB loco WESTERN KING backs a loaded train from Bickershaw Colliery into the sidings [Photo removed] A roadway separated the disposal point sidings on the left from the BR sidings. A noticeboard just to the left of the NCBOE Sentinel reads "DP loco must stop here when BR are shunting" [Photo removed] The NCBOE Sentinel loco outside its small and rather neat shed [Photo removed] For a week in April 1980 the two remaining workable Austerities at Bickershaw were steamed and No.7 (HE 3776) has just arrived from the colliery alongside BR 08356 [Photo removed] [Photo removed] The "Holy Grail" of photography was to get as many different locos as possible in one shot, and here on the left is a Class 25 arriving with empties, centre the NCB's WESTERN KING, between the two in the distance (barely visible) under the loader the NCBOE Sentinel diesel and on the right 08356.

Just found this thread which doesn't seem to have been added to for a while - Ooh, hang on its mine ! So - Something a little more up to date before more serious stuff: 45699 GALATEA worked the North Wales Coast Express on Sunday 19th July and seemed to be going well as it passed Mochdre, just west of Colwyn Bay However a hot box was discovered during the water stop at Llandudno Junction and the loco taken off the train with its support coach 47760 which had been attached to the rear was run round to the front of the train and departed for Holyhead about 30 minutes late 45699 ran round the support coach in the station and later departed for Chester

Attached is slightly better photo of 'SANDAL' which shows that the wheel spokes appear to be of square or rectangular section. They look thinner perhaps because I think this was a larger 16" cylinder Class OY with 3'-10" wheels

I don't wish to intrude on the general euphoria surrounding this model but I'm curious about the wheels. As one writer put it "Some of the constructional features of Peckett locos are of interest; for example, the slavish devotion to "H" section wheel spokes". In fact I think they were more of a solid rectangular section rather than "H" section, but they did have a distinctive flat front face, as depicted in these examples of E Class locos: P 1009 P 1351 P 1464 P 1465 However those shown on the pilot model have a rounded shape, i.e. oval section spokes. Presumably some examples might have had oval section spokes as on the model and I'm wondering therefore on which particular Class 'E' locomotive (or locomotives) the model was based ?

One difference not yet noted between these locos and particularly the BR examples is the type of coupling rods. Pecketts usually fitted coupling and connecting rods with rectangular ends with split brasses held in place with a tapered wedge (gib and cotter joint). Some of the BR locos had these type of rods while others had round ends - BR 1143 P 1105/08 New to Rowlands No.12 ROUND (photo 1959) BR 1145 P 1522/18 New to SHT No.18 RECTANGULAR (photo as GWR 1098 in 1946) BR 1151 P 1449/16 New to P&M No.4 ROUND (photo 1962) BR 1152 P 1179/12 New to P&M No.12 RECTANGULAR (photo 1959) I can't see any logic to this unless the rods were replaced at some time.

The only Peckett E Class to be preserved is P 1351, built in 1914 as LION for the Royal Arsenal. In 1994 it was at Foxfield in black