PGH

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Both were supplied new to the CEGB - at different ends of the country, but I don't suppose that is the answer. Were they designed by the same bloke who moved from RSH to Bagnall ????

I don't know their origins but I would guess either home made or perhaps not one of the regular rolling stock manufacturers. There were no builders plates on either, the van in use had the lettering "W.H.Ltd." on the axleboxes and the other, No.4, had lettering "E.E.G." on its axleboxes. Both were painted light grey with black underframes.

The post on the Granville brakevans didn't seem to attract much interest and chances are this post may attract less (Update - a bit too pessimistic perhaps), because its definitely not standard gauge industrial but about as narrow gauge as you can get. It is however part of the Lilleshall story as after the transfer of the Granville section to the NCB and the closure of the remaining section of the standard gauge line it was the last section of railway to be operated by the company. In deference to the standard gauge devotees this post will be deleted in due course. (No - its staying !) The Lilleshall Company's Donnington Wood Brickworks was situated at the end of a branch off the Lilleshall Railway's main line, to which it was connected by a triangular junction. It is shown on the map in Post #8 between New Yard Works and Old Lodge Ironworks. The works was connected to the clay pit by a 1'-3" gauge system worked by endless chains. A published account gives the gauge as 1'-6", but in the notes I made at the site I recorded - 1'-3" gauge (actually measures 1'-21/2") - so I'm reasonably confident it was a nominal 1'-3" gauge. The system comprised two parallel lines, one for empties going out to the pit and one for fulls returning to the works, laid in two straight sections with a turn through approximately 70 degrees at about the midway point. An endless chain driven by an electric motor at the works end drove the first section to a return pulley at the mid point, which in turn drove a similar endless chain on the second section to the pit. The small tubs (wagons) had steel bodies on timber frames. Above one end of the tub was fixed a vertical plate with a 'V' shaped gap to engage with the drive chain. At the mid point where the chain was raised to pass round the guide pulleys the track was graded so that when the tubs were detached from the rising drive chain they would run by gravity round the curve to be picked up by the next section of chain. At the clay pit and works ends of the line there was no pointwork, just areas of flat steel plates on which the small tubs could be manhandled as required. View from the midway point towards the clay pit. My visit was on a Saturday when the system wasn't working and all the tubs were stored away in the works tipping shed. View from the same point towards the works The works closed in 1972

The two brakevans at Granville in latter years came from the NCB's Cannock & Rugeley Collieries system. They were apparently employed on trains of container wagons used to transport coal from West Cannock Colliery to the canal basin at the end of the Cannock Extension Canal. This traffic ceased about 1962 which is probably about the date they were transferred to Granville. It seems likely that the container wagons at Granville shown in Post #107 were also originally used for this traffic on the Cannock & Rugeley system. The brakevan in use carried no lettering or number at Granville It was preserved at the Telford Steam Railway and repainted with added lettering - 2001 photo The second brakevan was still lettered "CRC No.4" Parked at the end of a siding it may not have been used here and was eventually scrapped A rough diagram of No.4 with major dimensions

I only witnessed it once so I don't know if it was the regular practice. It might be because the interchange sidings were so occupied that there was no spare line to run round. On the other hand it might just have been an easier or quicker way of swapping a full train for an empty train - the loco could run straight on to the empty wagons and after the fulls had gravitated past (and been suitably braked) would be clear to depart, after setting back if necessary to collect the brakevan from the rear of the full wagons. Another possible reason might be that running round in the conventional manner using the points at the other end of the sidings may have involved running over BR track and required waiting for the approval of the BR signalman before this could be carried out.

With the new diesels arrived and only waiting for a Hunslet representative to demonstrate them to the crews, I wonder if these were the last photos of steam in use on the Granville/Lilleshall system ? All three remaining steam locos were disposed of the following year. I visited again at the end of May 1970 on a weekend (non working) day. GRANVILLE No.5 and HE 2895 had been scrapped the previous month. No.8 appeared to have been recently repainted in unlined black and shortly after it was transferred to Cannock Wood Colliery, later West Cannock, Bickershaw then subsequently preserved. Going through these photos it appears that I missed photographing HE 2895 although it was quite clearly standing outside the shed in the first photo above. However I did have other things to do that day because after photographing No.8 returning to the colliery with empties I travelled down to Coventry Colliery to photograph one of the ex BR 15XX 0-6-0PTs then down to Harbury Cement Works to see the unusual Fowler 3ft gauge 2-4-0 diesels. I was obviously making the most of a days holiday off work, well two actually as the following day it was Astley Green Colliery, Walkden Yard and the electrics at Kearsley Power Station - those were the days!

For those interested in such things the Industrial Railway Society's Record magazine No.197 of March 2009 contained an article on modifications to NCB steam locomotives which included a list of all known NCB locos fitted with Giesl (the correct spelling) ejectors and if known when and where they were fitted. I believe copies may still be available from the Hon Publications Officer. Updates to the article were included in Records 203 and 220. For the two Granville locos HE 2895 and HE 3771 the best we could come up with was fitted before my visit of 10/1966, so its not known when and where they were so fitted.

David, Further to the photo of the dismantled TVR 0-6-2T, I've scanned and photo edited my copy and it clearly shows the faint "No.1" on the bunker side: This is also the same loco in the second photo in Post #112, you can pick out some of the same dents in the tank side, so its not the loco (No.3) which went to the NCB. Although the two locos are nearly identical you can pick out small detail differences such as the small plate above the handrail knob on the smokebox (No.1);the missing smokebox top lamp iron (No.3) and the different chimney fixings.

Thanks for that. If nothing suitable is available would it be possible to publish here the part of your CAD drawing that includes details of the reversing lever in the form of a .pdf or something similar so those of us who want to reproduce it can do so accurately ?

David, I have a copy of the same photo with a F.W.Shuttleworth sticker on the back and the reference "AD98". Like yours its dated 17/5/1952 but the loco is given as No.1 Cardiff 305/95 ex GWR 581. I also have a note that this loco was seen working on 4/10/1956 so evidently it was reassembled. It was scrapped in August 1958 (IRS info) On 30.8.1969 (a Saturday) a chance visit to Granville found the two working locos on one road in the shed - Giesl fitted Hunslet 2895/43 and No.8 Hunslet Austerity 3776/52, the latter with a normal chimney. No.8 had been transferred from Hilton Main Colliery, Staffordshire in August 1968 and was painted Black with Red coupling rods. On the other shed road were two brand new Hunslet 0-6-0 diesels, No.1D Hunslet 6663/69 and No.2D Hunslet 6664/69 which had arrived during the previous week. The livery of the diesels was Mid Green including wheels; Red coupling rods, radiator grilles and plates; Yellow lettering and Yellow/Black buffer beams. I was told that the staff were waiting for a Hunslet man to demonstrate them to the loco crews after which one of the two working steam locos would be kept as spare and the other scrapped.

The Lilleshall System is an interesting subject and we should be grateful for the time and effort that David has taken to publish these images. Its a pity that some of the photos lack details such as date taken and source. I think the original photographer (if known) deserves some credit. I always thought Shropshire was an interesting county railway-wise, particularly to someone whose interests are off the main line, i.e. branch lines, light railways and industrials. What it lacked in quantity it had in quality, or perhaps more appropriately - variety. Some of my "misspent youth" involved day trips to Shropshire by train from North Wales, and on different occasions I explored branch lines and quarry railways in the Oswestry Area and walked the full length of the Ludlow & Clee Hill Railway, the trackbed of the Snailbeach District Railway and most of the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire Railway. However it wasn't until I was fully mobile in the mid 1960's that I began to tackle some of the industrial locations, by which time of course the Lilleshall system had closed. I did make several visits to Granville Colliery, sometimes briefly at weekends when en­­-route to somewhere else on the nearby A5 road but on two occasions the visits were on working days in 1966 and 1969, the latter just before the end of steam working at the colliery. As this topic has included photos of the NCB period at Granville I thought the following photos taken on those two visits might be of interest.

Yes, I received replies from two members on the Gauge 0 Guild Forum who checked their models and found the levers were missing. I assumed therefore that they were never supplied. However if, as Chris says in the previous post, they were intended to be supplied and there may be a possibility that they could be, that would save the trouble of making one. I await further information from Chris in hopeful anticipation !

I recently purchased a Minerva Peckett loco. However I have recently partly dismantled the loco to provide additional detail in the cab and one quite significant item that seems to be missing is the reversing lever. There is a square hole in the cab floor where it should be fitted as indicated by the blue arrow in the photo below. So I'm wondering if it was originally intended to fit this item but it was in fact never fitted (to any model), or whether its an omission from mine and perhaps a few other models ? Update 16/4/2017: No apparent interest or response here, but the query has been answered on another forum.

Well spotted Osgood ! - however its just the paint that has cracked not the actual spring itself as this view shows with the paint (rather roughly !) removed. The problem with the Peco wagons is that the springs actually work like the real thing. They are made of a flexible material which allows the axlebox to slide up and down and of course with loading and unloading the wagons the springs are constantly flexing by a small amount. The only thing that would solve this problem is a flexible paint that sticks to a slippery plastic material - if there is such a thing.

Thanks for your comments. Yes it is the original chassis, with the inside members just cut back slightly to accommodate the door gear. The only other modification to the kits were to add lead weights to the centre section of the chassis.

With regard to the two quarries on the Corwen - Ruthin line, the first (from Corwen) was the Wern Ddu Quarry of the Dee Clwyd Granite Quarries Ltd. This had only two sidings, provided under an agreement of 1891 with the connection facing Ruthin. It had a 2'-6" gauge internal system in use in 1954, but removed c1956. Whether that latter date marked the closure of the quarry or not I don't know but it was certainly closed by 1967. It was a fairly small quarry so unlikely to have the facilities to provide track ballast in any quantity. The next quarry, Craig Lelo, had more extensive sidings provided in 1924 and worked by a Motorail Simplex loco. However rail traffic from the quarry ceased in June 1954 and the loco lay derelict until sold to the contractors lifting the Ruthin to Denbigh line in 1966. Its possible that they could have supplied railway ballast in your required period, they had the facilities even if they actually lay unused. There was a limestone quarry just north of Ruthin with a lengthy branch to the Ruthin - Denbigh line worked latterly by a similar Simplex loco to the Craig Lelo one, and earlier by a Sentinel steam loco. However this again was a fairly small quarry and most of the product would probably have gone locally for agricultural use. One quarry that definitely did supply track ballast was the Arenig Granite Quarry on the Blaenau Ffestiniog branch. Some sources say that the majority of the quarry output was for railway ballast. However unfortunately this doesn't give a reason for using an ex LMS loco on those workings.

The Peco mineral wagons with opening end doors intended for use in the end tippler have now been provided with door catches. These comprise a short length of nickel silver wire passing through a hole drilled in the buffer beam with the ends bent upwards to form the catch. On the inner end is silver soldered a crank or lever connected to an operating wire with a hooked end just below the solebar. It can thus be operated by the shunter's pole without touching the wagon, although you may need to make sure the door is fully closed before returning the catch to its vertical position. The end of the operating wire is not too intrusive - I think. It would have been possible to move this to the inner side of the axleguard where it would have represented the prototype's bottom door lever, but that would have involved removing some of the underframe which had already been partly filled with lead.

The timber tippler platform has been installed: First temporary side and end pieces were clamped in position then a total of 59 stripwood planks were cut to the required length and fixed in position after painting. The painting was done before final installation as the underside of the planks can be seen from below through the framework. The prototype had a mechanism in the rear left hand corner connected by gearing to the tippler table but without sufficient detail being available this had to be omitted.

You're bending the geology of the area a bit there Larry. Quarried stone for use in a steelworks would be limestone, which was quarried east of Llangollen. West of Llangollen it was slate. There were two quarries north of Corwen on the line to Ruthin but they quarried granite.

The operating mechanism for the tippler: This comprises a 100rpm gearhead motor connected to a M8 threaded shaft via two old Meccano gears. The shaft drives a captive nut in a brass fitting with an extended arm to which is fixed a cord connected to the tipping table. It's fitted on the layout upside down from this view. This diagram shows how the mechanism works. The operating cord passes through a brass tube in the retaining wall. It should really have a small pulley at the change of direction but I flared the end of the tube instead to ease its passage. The mechanism is operated by a DPDT switch and controlled by micro switches at each end of the movement. The most critical part of the movement is at the end, returning the table to line up exactly with the fixed entry/exit track and this is done independent of the mechanism by a timber beam under the table. The mechanism is therefore arranged to overwind slightly and slacken off the drive cord at that end of the travel. View underneath. 12v supply enters top left, DPDT operating switch bottom centre right and operating cord connecting to table top right.

The tippler support framework is now painted and firmly planted in position: It was grit blasted and primed with U-Pol Acid #8 etch primer, giving a light grey finish. At this point I wondered whether the finish coat should be light grey or light green like the colliery steelwork - and decided on the latter. The prototype was certainly a light colour when I photographed it in 1965, unfortunately in black & white. However it is intended to be "based on" rather than "model of" the prototype so I'm not too worried if the colour is different - maybe the even more vague "inspired by" the prototype might be more appropriate ! The steelwork is reasonably like the prototype, the timber underneath somewhat less so. I'm not sure what purpose some of this timber served and maybe it was part of an earlier structure. The structure had to be rebuilt in 1914 after being demolished by a runaway train. The chute is rather simpler than the prototype, which comprised timber and steelwork and led directly on to the boat loading facility. The model chute has a removable extension to take it over the edge of the baseboard. The switch in the facia bottom right operates the tippler. The next job is to provide the timber decking to the structure and then the building on top, which will have a removable side wall to view the operation of the tippler.

Questions ! Questions ! Its about 20 years since I 'played' with the real thing, so I like to find photographic evidence to support a sometimes hazy recollection - if I can. The answer to the above question is both. Each end of the reversing rod had a fork so was both sides of the respective levers. I'm doubtful about the inward curving sides to the reversing lever stand, but without seeing ROUGH PUP (which is I think the loco that the Slaters model is supposed to represent) I wouldn't like to say its wrong. The stand should have a plain top with alongside it two curved notched strips with the lever between them. There are spacers on the bolts each end of the strips to accommodate the lever and also spacers between the strips and the stand. Also there should be a large hole in the centre of the stand for access to the bolt in the forked joint between the lever and the reversing rod. SYBIL MARY at the Statfold Barn Railway is a different type of loco but has some similar details. Locos with the handbrake support on the firebox had the reverser stand outside instead of inside the brake column. Also the drain cock lever was supported on a bracket fixed to the reverser stand rather than the handbrake column. However relevant details are the end view of the reverser stand showing the plain top with the notched strips each side of the lever and bottom centre the handle at the end of the drain cock lever, which looks large in the photo but was only about 3-4" long. Some of these points can be seen in the detail photos in the Quarry Hunslet book.

According to Industrial Railway Society records the site was originally a copper works and later a chemical works, trading as McKechnie Bros Ltd. then as a subsidiary McKechnie Chemicals Ltd. from 1965. They had two Andrew Barclay 0-4-0STs named ECONOMIC and EFFICIENT, and two Sentinels ENTERPRISE and ENDURANCE. Rail traffic had ceased by 1969. ECONOMIC was scrapped c1955; the two Sentinels went for scrap in 1969; EFFICIENT was preserved by the Liverpool Locomotive Preservation Group and is now at the Ribble Steam Railway, Preston. The following is quoted directly from the Ribble Steam Railway website:- 'Efficient' was built at the Caledonia works of Andrew Barclay & Sons in Kilmarnock. It is a standard Barclay saddle tank with 14" x 22" cylinders and 3' 5" driving wheels. Painted in the Kilmarnock firms usual green lined livery and lettering, it spent it's entire working life at McKechnie Brothers' copper smelting works at Widnes. It shared the duties here with a smaller Barclay engine named 'Economic', which failed to live up to it's name and was scrapped in 1955. There were also two 100h.p. Sentinels as well. When no longer required at the copper works 'Efficient' was purchased by the Liverpool Locomotive Preservation Group and moved to Seacombe in July 1969. From here, it worked the two Docker railtours in 1971 and 1972, double-headed with Avonside 'Lucy'. 'Efficient' moved to Southport in July 1973, where she had the distinction of being the first steam locomotive to enter the newly formed museum. She was fitted with a new inner firebox in 1981, and was a regular performer at Steamport Southport until the late 1990's when the site closed, eventually arriving at Preston on 27th July 1999. Efficient's last public steaming was in April 2000 as she took part in the closing celebrations at Shelton Steelworks in Stoke. A firm favourite amongst the crews at the museum, investigation was carried out during the summer of 2005 to bring the loco back into service. Unfortunately, due to the extent of the work required on the boiler, she will have to wait her turn. She is on view in the museum in a 'as in industrial use' condition. EFFICIENT on display at Preston in September last year in "weathered" condition !

It should be on the outside. The photo below is about the best I could find to illustrate this - on VELINHELI You can barely make it out (blow up of a rather grainy negative) but the edge of the stand is highlighted between the two yellow lines. The ends of the two curved strips with the notches for the lever catch are indicated by the red arrow, so as the lever runs between these it must be on the outside of the stand.