PGH

The earlier Hunslet locos had drain cocks on the valve chests rather than the cylinders, there was nothing below the cylinders as illustrated in this over exposed view of ELIDIR The operating lever passed through a bracket bolted to the handbrake column and had a handle on the end facing outwards, as shown here on ALICE - if you can make it out, the flash photography doesn't help !

The photo below is about the best I could do from the original print. It appears that the injector steam feed pipe goes through the front of the bunker, also the blower pipe curves out and seems to go through just below. On other locos the water feed and blower pipes do stay under the tank and go behind the bunker sheet - as on VELINHELI and HOLY WAR, but as the Firebox outer wrapper is nearly as wide as the tank they must have a 'S' bend to get round the firebox.

Thanks for your suggestion, but any form of fixed retardation on the wagons would stop them running off the tippler. In effect its like fly shunting but without the momentum of a locomotive to give it the initial shove.

Oh Dear ! it seems this problem of wagon control might be rather complicated. However there may be a rather simpler possible method involving a thread and bent piece of wire which I 'knocked up' in about 5 minutes (or perhaps maybe 10 ! ). The wire is bent to form a hook with "feet" so it stands ready to catch the leading axle of the wagon its attached to a thread running through a hole with a counterweight at the end and operates thus - slacken the thread and the hook drops off the axle and returns to its original position, where it may require adjusting ready for the next wagon. In operation you would send the wagons down in order of their running capability with the freest running, which would tend to travel the furthest, first. Obviously this will need some further development, the wagon is perhaps still running too fast so maybe the hook should be higher up the track and it needs a rather neater and less conspicuous hook, but I think it may have some possibilities.

This is the chassis of IRISH MAIL - Is this any help ?

Some interesting ideas there, Thanks. Personally I'd like to keep the wagons as unaltered as possible even if it means some compromises in the operation. I appreciate that a layout intended for public exhibition requires "hands off" operation but for a home layout its just a matter of personal preference and its quite acceptable to me to use some external means (a finger if necessary !) to operate a door catch. I spent several hours trying to get 6 identical wagons to roll exactly the same without success. Polishing the journals, polishing the bearings and of course oiling made little difference. So the minimum gradient has to be set for the worst running wagon, which will consistently just run off the tipping table. On the steeper section some form of retardation will definitely be required, something that doesn't look out of place, like vegetation in the form of small bushes rubbing against the wheels, or something inconspicuous like clear nylon brush bristles set vertically catching the axles. I don't have any problem using real coal and just sieve it regularly to remove any dust.

Most of the lines were interconnected. The Quarry had two main sections, the north "Garret" side (furthest from the camera in the photo) was served by the "A" series of inclines to the left, the bottom of which terminated at Gilfach Ddu - location of the workshops and terminus of the Padarn Railway and off the photo to the left. Between these inclines and the quarry levels there was another shorter series of inclines - the "B" inclines, of which some remained in use but others had been partly quarried away. The south "Braich" side of the quarry is nearer the camera and you can probably just make out from the photo the ridge of rock separating the two. This carried a rather long flight of steps. The Braich side was served by the "C" series inclines to the right. Some of the level lines originally ran through between the A and C inclines, but most of these were interrupted by quarrying or falls of rock. At the very top of the quarry there were three long disused levels not connected to the rest of the system, and on the highest I found the remains of a Blondin (Aerial ropeway) terminal for lowering wagons to a lower level. There were also several sincs (pits) in the quarry served by Blondins which would have had short lengths of unconnected track in the bottom. For further reading, in addition to the Quarry Hunslets book mentioned previously there is also: "Narrow Gauge Railways in North Caernarvonshire - Volume 3" by J.I.C.Boyd published by Oakwood Press 1986 "The Padarn & Penrhyn Railways" by Susan Turner published by David & Charles 1975 "Slates to Velinheli" by D.C.Carrington and T.F.Rushworth originally published by the Maid Marian Locomotive Fund and later reprinted with amendments by the Bala Lake Railway Society 1993 "Delving in Dinorwic" by D.C.Carrington published by Gwasg Carreg Gwalch, Llanrwst 1994 For a general history of the quarry: "DINORWIC - The Llanberis Slate Quarry 1780 - 1969" by Reg Chambers Jones published by Bridge Books, Wrexham 2006 There was a series of articles on the Hunslet locos in "Narrow Lines" the magazine of the 7mm Narrow Gauge Association entitled "Dinorwic Mysteries", beginning with Part 1 in Issue 95 of October & November 1995 and extending over three other issues - 96, 98 and 99. I first visited the quarry about 1960 and its hard to imagine in these days of health and safety that two schoolboys could turn up unarranged at the main gate, be directed to the managers office to seek permission, and then be allowed to wander unaccompanied wherever we liked around the quarry. What we probably didn't realise at the time was that we were witnessing the end of an era.

Unfortunately the note for 8/11/1955 doesn't say which boiler was replaced. One might assume that the problem would have been fairly major to involve removing the boiler and the time between "loco dismantled" and "into service" seems quite short, maybe Boiler No.10 had been repaired and returned from Port Dinorwic, but that's just pure speculation. There was no other mention of Boiler No.10 and the only other use listed of Boiler No.19 was fitted to CLOISTER from 8/1933 to 2/1945. Major boiler repair work and construction of new boilers was done down at Port Dinorwic but I believe that all records there were destroyed in 1969. To complete the story of RED DAMSEL, in March 1965 the chassis was stored in Gilfach Ddu Works Yard with other parts including 4 saddle tanks, cab and boiler - the latter with backhead injectors so presumably off another loco. It was sold by auction on 13/12/1969 in a dismantled state for the sum of £1550. Purchased by Alan Lowry Porter for the proposed Llanberis Lake Railway it was rebuilt over the winter of 1971/2 and fitted with the cab originally supplied on IRISH MAIL. HE 493 now named ELIDIR as running today (2014 photo) on the Llanberis Lake Railway. Driver Hefin Owen takes water at Gilfach Ddu.

The following information was taken from a ledger examined in the office of the engineer at the Gilfach Ddu Workshops in 1967. This document seemed to have been started about 1935 as any entries dated earlier were brief and written in the same hand as though they had been copied from an earlier document. It gave half a dozen pages to each loco and in the 1930s went in to some considerable detail of work carried out. However in later years the entries became more brief and in some cases rather vague. Time allowed only the more interesting facts to be recorded. For RED DAMSEL the following was extracted: 1/1923 New boiler 3/1932 New boiler No.10. Sent to New York 20/4/1942 Withdrawn from service 16/2/1946 Put to work (No location given but another source says worked at Dyffryn late 1947) 23/4/1949 to Yard 25/4/1950 Sent to Lernion to replace MICHAEL 1/11/1951 Taken out of service due to rockfall 4/6/1952 Restarted 2/7/1953 Boiler condemned, loco taken out of service 7/1953 Boiler No.10 to works. Boiler No.19 fitted at Lernion 11/7/1953 Put into service 24/6/1954 Boiler No.10 to Dry Dock (Port Dinorwic) 29/10/1955 Boiler faulty (presumably No.19), loco dismantled, boiler sent to yard 8/11/1955 Loco reassembled at Lernion 10/11/1955 into service 24/9/1957 Taken out of service (Replaced at Lernion by HOLY WAR) 18/11/1957 Loco to Yard for dismantling The photo shows known locations where RED DAMSEL worked: 1 Ponc Moses 1890 - 1904 2 Australia 1906 - ? 3 New York 1932 - ? 4 Dyffryn ? - ? 5 Lernion 1950 - 1957 Lernion was the highest level worked by steam locomotive, one quote gives an altitude of 1,860 feet above sea level - the highest loco shed in the British Isles.

Since starting to read this thread I've been looking into the history of the prototype loco. Over time I tend to collect various odd bits and pieces of information and its interesting to put these together and try to get as much as possible of the full story. I'm not sure how much interest there is here for this kind of information and it doesn't really help with the build, but it can always be deleted if considered inappropriate. Some of the information is from published sources but most is unpublished. First regarding livery - I have an extract from Hunslet paint records that covers a period from about 1890 to 1908, which unfortunately doesn't include Works No.493. However the next two locos supplied to Dinorwic - 541 and 542 (later ROUGH PUP and CLOISTER) - were painted olive green lined with a black stripe edged with lemon yellow and a fine distant line of vermilion, so perhaps 493 was painted similarly. By the next deliveries the livery had been changed to Midland Red - 631 VELINHELI (the 4ft gauge loco) and all locos from 638 (later JERRY M) to 849 (later WILD ASTER). This was variously described as "painted crimson lake like the Midland Co. express locos", "painted throughout like Midland express locos, crimson lake with black stripe and yellow lines" or "painted Midland colour lined the usual way with black style". In all cases, olive green or red, the buffer beams were vermilion. 493 was despatched by Hunslet in November 1889 (per a Hunslet works list, although one published source gives 28/10/1889) with the cast nameplates ENID and received at Llanberis railway station on 15/11/1889. It was taken up to Ponc Moses on 8/2/1890. Ponc is Welsh for bank or gallery and Ponc Moses is the fifth level up, part way up the C2 incline, and partly quarried away in later years. Apparently it didn't start work at Ponc Moses until 10/6/1890, maybe the track wasn't suitable and required relaying - you could always tell where the steam locos worked from the heavier rail. At that time it was the only loco on that level. It worked on Ponc Moses until 1904, although a published source lists it on California level c1895/6. In 1900 it was returned to Hunslet for repairs. By 1905 repairs were again required and it stopped working on 5/1/1905 being replaced on Ponc Moses by VELINHELI. The repairs were probably carried out at the quarry and included 4 new tyres from Hunslet. After repair it was restored to working order by 10/2/1906 and went to the level named Australia. The Australia level was the 15th level up at the head of the C5 incline, and where ALICE was left derelict after closure of the quarry. HE 493 was still there in 1907/08 and it was apparently also recorded there in 1912/14, but there is then a gap in information on its location until 1932. The practice of naming the locos after racehorses is well known. Red Damsel the racehorse was only active in early 1914 and only won one race, so maybe HE 493 was renamed in that year or possibly earlier when the horse was first acquired. In any case the practice of naming after racehorses ceased in 1914. tbc ?

The first trial run of the part completed structure. I'm reasonably happy that it operates more or less as planned, although more work is required, i.e.: 1. Provision of a mechanism to give a slow and even movement to the tipping table. 2. A catch and better hinges on the wagon doors, and I'm not sure whether the existing plastic hinges are robust enough for long term use. 3. Some means of regulating the speed of the empty wagons beyond the turnout.

The supporting framework for the tippler is more or less complete, it will be grit blasted and painted before being finally fixed in position. I don't know what colour the steelwork was painted, it seems to have been a fairly light colour latterly. If in doubt I usually go for grey. When the layout was first planned it was intended to place this tippler in a corner and little if any of the structure below and beyond the actual tippler building would have been visible, so when surveying the prototype I didn't take much notice of what was under or beyond the actual tippler building. In its current position the situation is rather different and the few rather distant views available of the prototype didn't offer much help, so the detail under the building is only a vague representation of the prototype. Beyond the building is 'off scene' and merely serves to direct the coal into a suitable container. It would have been nice to include all the structure and part of the canal basin with the coal discharging into a canal barge, given more prototype detail, space, time, patience, etc, etc.

Information was taken from a ledger at the Gilfach Ddu Workshops in 1967. Whether that has survived and if so where it is now I've no idea. I've sent the drawing and four photos via PMs, let me know if you get them OK.

I'll scan the photos and send later. Don Townsley's drawing was in the November 1966 issue of Model Railway News but its to 7mm scale, even smaller than the version in the Quarry Hunslets book - which is approx 8mm scale. I do have a larger scale side elevation which seems to originate from that drawing, I shall scan that as well and the details may be a little clearer. Don's drawing in the MRN is attributed to VELINHELI, so with the photo in Boyd it seems to confirm that some of the earliest locos were fitted with side mounted injectors. It seems odd that RED DAMSEL alone retained hers despite several boiler changes. From quarry records RED DAMSEL had a new boiler in 1923; a new boiler in 1932; this was condemned in 1953 and a replacement boiler fitted at Lernion.

I don't have many either, but I will list what I do have 1. Early LHS view of unknown date with quarry workers. Still has sandbox on tank side but unfortunately one worker is standing in front of the position where the injector might be at the rear of the tank side. However the boiler clack valve is just about visible and the pipework in the cab seems to confirm that it was fitted with side mounted rather than backhead injectors. 2.3. Two views, one each side, taken on 26.6.1956, presumably on the same group visit as the Ivo Peters photo in the Quarry Hunslets of North Wales book (I also have another view showing the loco and train outside the loco shed on Lernion - shows the area surrounding the shed) 4. RHS view taken on 10.9.1956 - loco taking water from the tank at the rear of the loco shed. I can't post any of them here for copyright reasons, but I could send them as attachments to a PM if required. RED DAMSEL seems to have been unique, at least in later years, among the 'Alice' Class locos in having side (tank) mounted injectors and clack valves instead of backhead mounted combination injectors. Don Townsley published a drawing in the Model Railway News magazine - later republished in the Quarry Hunslets of North Wales book - which shows side mounted injectors, presumably based on original Hunslet drawings, but apart from RED DAMSEL I haven't seen any photos which show that such injectors were fitted to other 'Alice' Class locos in quarry service. I used to be quite familiar with this loco (or what actually remained of it) as ELIDIR on the Llanberis Lake Railway as I used to drive regularly on Sundays from the start of operations in 1971 to 1996, and of the three working locos ELIDIR was the most preferred - DOLBADARN had a rather stiff regulator and the extended cab on WILD ASTER/THOMAS BACH made it more awkward to attend to the fire through the rear cab doors.

I'm pleased to see that the brakevan is nearly finished and looking well, despite all the trials and tribulations - can we now let Father Christmas (whoever that poor misguided individual was ) out of the doghouse ?

Steve, I've just come across this post, hence the delay in answering the query. The Aberaman and Mountain Ash were originally two separate systems, but were connected by a NCB line on the course of the closed BR Vale of Neath Line in February 1971 - per Industrial Railway Society info. By that date the only facility served by the Aberaman system was the Aberaman Phurnacite Plant so the connection allowed coal to reach the plant from collieries on the Mountain Ash system via an internal NCB line. However KS 3066 was out of use before 1971 so remained stored at Aberaman until disposal. I believe the large building it was stored in was originally used for wagon repairs, although I'm not sure where I got that information because when I photographed the loco it was completely empty apart from KS 3066. Maybe it was part of the ironworks which originally occupied the site.

It always amuses me how some seem to think that any model of an industrial steam loco needs to be covered in a significantly large amount of filth to have "convincing realism" (whatever that is). In truth the external condition of industrial steam locos varied and depended on such factors as their working environment, how hard they were required to work and whether or not their crew took a pride in their appearance.

The chimney was at Mosley Common, about the same distance from the camera as the No.4 Shaft tower winder to the right. At that date there were only fields each side of the line from the Leigh Road overbridge (seen in the distance of the sidings photo) to the East Lancashire Road overbridge, Mosley Common being immediately beyond. The area has been fully developed since but only for housing. There were two other chimneys at Mosley Common but they were demolished in the 1950s when steam power was replaced by electric. The one in the photo was the tallest at 225 feet and was demolished in May 1972. I think the structures appearing to be at the base of the chimney are actually pigeon lofts or sheds in the rear gardens of houses on the right. The Worsley Canal Tip closed about 1961, much earlier than the Boothsbank Tip, and I don't think I ever visited the site. I do have a couple of photos of the sidings, but as they are not mine I can't post them here. The arrangement was similar to Boothsbank but with three empty roads instead of two and the two sets of sidings were closer together with a low retaining wall between rather than an earth bank. There was a point with a hinged crossing like Boothsbank, then 2 two-way points from the full sidings instead of a three-way. The entry to the empty sidings was via a three-way point. The track leading to the tip was elevated on 7 brick piers and in earlier years a loco shed was sited underneath for the vertical boiler loco used to shunt Worsley Yard.

Very true, and industrial railways with lots of repetitive movements did make as much use as possible of gravity working. One solution might be self propelled wagons but for me the complications and all the gubbins visible under the wagon would be unacceptable, and in any case you couldn't replicate the miniature brakeman required to accompany the wagon. So the positioning of wagons on the tippler by a locomotive is a compromise. However a limited amount of gravity working is proposed for the empty wagons. The straight (empty) road of the point is graded so that all the wagons will roll unaided through it. The tippler table will be inclined slightly in its rest position so that wagons will roll off it - hence the loco doesn't pull the remainder of the train clear until the wagon starts to tip. Beyond the point the gradient of the empty track steepens and some form of control might be required to slow wagons down - vegetation rubbing on the backs of wheels or stiff nylon brush bristles set vertically between the track contacting the axles may be possibilities. How this works in practice remains to be seen - watch this space ! With regard to the operation of the tip itself, unfortunately I never saw it in action as visits to the system were usually spent chasing the locomotives. The design of the tippler table with its triangular support frame and adjustable weights suggests that it was finely balanced - see the video in Post #224 which shows that it starts to tip immediately it receives the wagon. I suspect that the reduced centre of gravity with the wagon emptied then returned the wagon to the horizontal. However whether this works in model form remains to be seen and controlling such movement may be a problem. The current thinking is to add weight to the table if necessary under the floor at the outer (canal) end so it does tip automatically with the full wagon in position, then control this movement with a cord attached to the inner (sidings) end which will pass round a small pulley under the building then through a hole in the retaining wall to a drum driven by a motor. Winding the cord out tips the load, winding it in returns the wagon to the horizontal.

The operating parts for the point. The small crank (left) is attached to the blade tiebar by the forked link below. The large crank (right) is connected to the hinged crossing rail - shown below upside down. The operating lever (centre) has two sockets pivoted to its forked lower end to take the rods connecting it to the cranks. To complete the installation the cranks and lever were fixed in position and then the length of the rods adjusted to give the required movement after which they were soldered into the sockets. Surprisingly this all went according to plan ! The round extension below the lever pivot houses a sprung plunger which bears on the bottom of the lever and keeps it in position. The point set for full wagons entering the tippler and set for empties leaving the tippler Locos are not required to pass over this point. The proposed method of operation is for loaded trains of say 6 wagons to be propelled towards the tippler, the lead wagon is detached and tipped, then the loco pulls the remainder of the train clear of the point after which the empty wagon runs by gravity into the lower siding. This is repeated for the next two wagons. The loco then uncouples, collects the three empties and then pushes the remaining three full wagons individually into the tippler. So there is always at least three wagons between the loco and the tippler.

Before continuing work on the tippler structure the trackwork immediately outside has been completed. The prototype at Boothstown near Manchester in 1970 looking out from the tippler building - on the left are the three full wagon sidings where wagons were left by the locomotive. The wagons were then run individually by gravity on to the tippler (immediately behind the camera) and then, after emptying, run by gravity into the two low level sidings on the right for collection by the locomotive. The point in the foreground therefore had both roads sloping but in opposite directions and instead of the conventional crossing or frog there was a hinged section of rail connected to the same lever that worked the blades. Standing on this spot today you would be viewing an estate of "executive" style houses occupying the site of the sidings. Behind the camera the canal basin is now a pleasure boat marina and to the left is a pub and restaurant. A similar view on the layout where there was only room for single full and empty sidings. More work needs to be done on the finish of the timber decking and provision of more "dirt" or spillage material. The moveable crossing section of rail.

Its hard to believe that its nearly 10 months since there was any progress on the layout, time goes faster as you get older so they say. More likely you just get slower so things take longer. A second 7/8" scale (2ft gauge on 45mm track) live steam Accucraft Quarry Hunslet has been modified with some new parts and a repaint as the Penrhyn loco EDWARD SHOLTO. It is currently awaiting the fitting of radio control. The first, HUGH NAPIER previously illustrated in Post #169, is fitted with radio control and had several outings to garden layouts during the summer. Four Penrhyn Railway wagons were constructed from kits But back to the layout and work has now resumed on the facility for end tipping wagons, although after the above 7mm scale does seem rather small.

Two 165HP locomotives were rebuilt by ICI Ltd with raised cabs and lowered bonnets for greater visibility and used at Tunstead Quarry, Derbyshire. RH 418598 TREVITHICK a 165DE 0-4-0 built in 1957 is shown at Tunstead in 1969 RH 281264 a 165DS 0-6-0 built in 1950 and also photographed in 1969 Both locomotives went to preservation centres, RH 418598 to Southport and RH 281264 to Butterley, but were later scrapped

Happy to oblige: Photo taken at ICI's Smalldale Plant at Peak Forest in August 1967 RH 395305 - supplied new in 1956 to ICI Ltd., Weston Point Works, Runcorn; to ICI's Smalldale Plant, Peak Forest in 1966; to ICI's South Central Workshops, Tunstead circa 1968; to Foxfield Railway, December 1975; to Northamptonshire Ironstone Railway Trust, Hunsbury Hill, September 1997 (info from Industrial Railway Society records)