Andy Hayter

Thanks also from me although the only GCR brake van is once again a 3 axle version - which I had already located through my own database. This is however a very good piece of work by the Guys across the big sea.

Many thanks to Peter for scanning the drawings - a good start for a scratchbuild. Paul, yes, but again it is the 3 axle version in Taplow Thanks to all for taking time to respond

I actually have the Tatlow book, and the only drawing is again a 3 axle van rather than a smaller one. Maybe I will just have to build the bigger one for now.

I was actually thinking of scratch building - hence the question about drawings. I had found the 2 available brake vans you link to and considered them a bit bigger than I was thinking about. The Bill Bedford 15t van (in preparation) was more the size I was thinking about. Thanks anyway for the heads up on G Dow.

Having recently purchased the Bachmann 9J, I am now looking for stock for it to haul. I have found several drawings for GCR wagons but only one drawing of a brake van - a 3 axle 20 version, which seems a bit OTT for the sort of train I intend to model. George Dow's trilogy on the Great Central railway is frequently cited as a significant source of data. If anyone has, or has had, access to these books, could they please tell me if they contain drawing which can be used as a basis for modelling - and in particular if there are any suitable drawings of brake vans. Alternatively can anyone point to another source? Many thanks in advance

Seeing the picture from Jacques Willigens above reminds me that the Rails d'Autrefois group may be able to help source drawings. (Jacques is the president of the group) http://railsdautrefois.fr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18&Itemid=22 Nothing they have so far published has specifically covered ROD items, but their members may well be able to help

Chris It might be worth reposting this request in the French prototype section of RMWeb. Personally I am not aware of any books that cover the prototypes you are looking for, and if there is one it must be a long time out of print. 50 men/8 horses sounds a cosy squeeze, given that in the interwar era, it was reduced to 40 men/8 horses (it is either or and not both)for four wheel stock. Beyond that I cannot help much - it seems an area not covered much in France - but maybe that will change in the next 4 years.

Not sure if either of these are referring to the correct wagons but you could try: Railway Modeller Jan 1965 page 7 - PO wagons that became GWR open china clay wagons or Railway Modeller June 1988 page 256 - GWR open china clay wagons I do not have immediate access to the magazines to check for you - but the first sounds promising from the description.

I have to disagree with your comments re France. Models released since Jan 2011 BB 16654 - Vitrains CC 6500 - Lematec BB 15000 - LS Models BB 7003 - Roco BB 16000 - Roco CC 21003 21004 - Jouef 2D2 5400 - Jouef BB 8500 Jouef BB 17000 - Jouef BB 25500 - Jouef BB 16500 - LS Models BB 7200 - LS Models BB 22200 - LS Models CC 6500 - Roco BB 22200 - Roco BB 1-80 - Mistral CC 6500 - Lematec CC 21000 - Lematec 2D2 - Waterman - Jouef You will note some duplication by the same producers but these will either be livery variants or (in the case of the CC 6500) body variants.

Well I am sorry if my categorisation has created some confusion or a distraction, but I strongly suspect that the major manufacturers use similar groupings in their market analyses. And yes there are other groups but dedicated kit and scratch builders are hardly of import in a discussion on Bachmann and where we go next with electric traction. After all, they could produce the entire range and you would still be kit/scratch building. Remember also that I said that despite the pigeon holing there is a continuum and indeed it is possible to be in more than one group at a time. How many of us layout owners/users have bought a model because it is "nice" even though outside of our main interest. Perhaps we have a idea for a future layout, but in reality it probably won't get built. Does that not make us a collector as well?

I totally agree, but then that puts us both into my group 4 and does nothing to help promote the group 3 market - see earlier post for the groupings.

Mine,like the webpage are grey - but mine are 20 years plus old. Yes they are a bit crude, but add a few add ons (courtesy Sommerfeld for example) and you start to get close. On their own they would not satisfy the serious modeller, but they could help bridge the current gaps.

Actually not just for the UK modeller - outside of DACH (D=Deutschland/Germany; A = Austria; CH = Switzerland) - the European coverage is pretty poor as well. Sommerfeld and Viessmann cover these countries well. After that? In fact the major model producers (by which I mean companies that produce rolling stock, locomotives and accessories) almost to a man ignore the overhead supply system. I have seen the prices for bespoke etched and printed catenary items (almost all 1500V DC which does add some complication) and the prices would invite any railway modeller to move to knitting!! A length of double track catenary could well be more expensive than the train sitting on it! Perversely there is one major producer who does at least make OH wires and catenary masts - Hornby. Formerly Electrotren some of the Hornby International masts could pass for 25KV although I have not checked the mast height for 00. Is this perhaps a solution? http://www.hornbyinternational.com/en/62-catenary

My tuppence worth as someone who has considered buying UK overhead electrics, but has not - but has bought and run continental versions. The collector will buy these models - just because they are there. The train set purchaser might buy them. They will note the lack of overhead supply equipment, but probably ignore it. If it were available off the shelf they would then curse it, since each derailment (which are probably frequent) becomes a logistics nightmare extricating stock from under the wire and getting it back on the track again (I know - an 8 coach articulated TGV set is an absolute nightmare). However they are only likely to buy if they see, or have seen, such locomotives in operation - not necessarily the same class, just overhead electrics. This will create a geographic isolation for many train set operators and means models will not sell perhaps so well. The semi serious modeller would buy but will be concerned about the lack of overhead supply equipment and will wait (forever) for it to appear as a plug and play item from their model shop. The serious modeller will not be worried by the lack of overhead power supply, he can build it himself. However the lack of breadth in the locomotive range will put him off starting perhaps. So from 4 groups (and I do realise that in the real world there is a continuum and not just simple pigeon holes) 1 will buy, 1 may buy depending on where they live and 2 will probably not buy - for very different reasons. And yes, I am sure in every group there will be exceptions. The potential market is therefore potentially halved compared with a steam or diesel locomotive. That I think is the challenge for a model manufacturer. The question is how to break the circle? Making more models available against a background of slower sales than other types, would take a very brave marketing manager - and could easily be a career limiting move. Making overhead catenary and masts (easy to write but would be a nightmare to do) might seem attractive but could alienate the train setters, will probably not be of interest to the collector and unless of high quality would be rejected by the serious modeller.

Dana In a word, no. Although there are a number of stores that have gone into receivership if that is what you meant by like Modelzone. If you say where you will be going, a number of us can probably suggest which is the local model store - but local could be a long way away - even by UK standards. I end up buying nearly everything by mail order or at the occasional local show.

pure speculation

I don't believe it does Clive - for the simple reason that unlike most of the rest of Europe to the east (Germany and Switzerland eastwards) track gauges of 700mm to 800mm (which could be represented by 9mm track in HO) were virtually unknown in France. Effectively gauges were restricted to 600mm or metre - although before others come in and say what about.... - there were some exceptions but these were rare. Peco HOm track does seem to sell reasonably well from what I can tell.

Does that mean that the Bachmann livery will be fictional? Or just that said model should not carry a name?

A further snippet from another Jose Banaudo book - Sur les rails des Causses et des Cevennes - pub. Editions Cabri: In discussing Bedarieux station, states that in the early 1870s the Cie du Midi planned a transverse route between Montpellier and Montauban via Paulhan, Bedarieux, Mazamet, Castres and St. Sulpice. So although Bedarieux certainly owes its railway prominence due to the local mines, it looks as if this line was planned for a different purpose.

Not sure about the UK but Lidl in Germany and Lidl in France would tranship from one store to another if they ran out of stock and another still had some of their WIGIGs*. WIGIG = when it's gone it's gone. EDIT: to make clear. The stores will do this on request. So if you ask for a display cabinet and they have none, they will tranship one for you (if available).

Yes Twice a year 302mm to the foot

Roger 5591 Just how do we make these part more flexible unless they are a separate moulding that has to be added later??? Which kind of defeats many objects Sorry no quotes - Microsh1t 8.1 is not compatible with the quotes function on this site.

While I agree that it a shame that some have bought this only for profit and have denied "real" modellers of the chance of having one at a sensible price, on what basis do we really condemn them?? I would also have fancied one of these, although I have no layout on which to run one and no LYR stock to run with it. Would that have made me a hoarder? Waiting for the time when I (or more likely my heirs) chose to downsize and dispose of said model (at I suppose a profit). Would that have made me a dreaded collector and so also deprive the modeller from his just rights? And why is this model so popular? I recently bought the GCR Butler Henderson model several months after release - and still available. My motivation - again a model I like as a model, but in this case I can at least claim a short rake if scratch built GCR coaches to go with it - but still no layout. Hence the priority to buy this and not the LYR tank. (Bu@@er, Bu@@er, Bu@@er). Why do some models sell out in weeks (and offer the model speculator the chance to make fine profit) while others seem to sell more slowly? What makes the LYR tank and the SECR C2 so popular and seemingly the GCR model less so? Do these speculators actually have a stock of models like the D11 that they cannot (yet) offer to market, that balances the C2s and LYR tanks? So many questions, but can we, should we, condemn people who spot a chance and take it?

Quite right, but at the same time so wrong. Design cheap - yes because that is what keeps our models affordable. But cheap as in in tatty - well lets see. Am I alone in being a bit surprised by reactions. We see some quite nice pre-production shots and they seem a bit tempting. Someone asks (quite legitimately) if the tender and cab hand rails are moulded on. In other words they cannot tell from the picture - and neither could I. On being told yes they are moulded and have some clever undercutting to make them seem less so, the model then becomes a disaster. Instead of saying, maybe there is something in this design clever - that makes it difficult to distinguish them from separately applied ones - and we should at least wait to see one in the flesh before reaching a conclusion, we all rush to say this is just rubbish. That would be rubbish we could not see in quite large detailed pictures when presented at what would be a close viewing distance for most models. Personally I would be much more worried by the bend in the rotary valve gear, which has been pointed out but seems to have not attracted the same negative attention. I rather fear we are suffering some form of model snobbery here.

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