David Bigcheeseplant

A photo of a 64XX at Aylesbury

Was the numberplate high on both sides or just one side. David

Uploaded with ImageShack.us This is a picture of 1036 Western Emperor at Aylesbury 11th September 1965 by John Reed note the numberplate is higher was this unique for this loco or did any other westerns have the high numberplate, I think this loco will become a fleet member on our Aylesbury layout. David

Blackgill is booked to apear at Railex 2014

The engine shed I own the original contract drawing and the this was used together with later drawings of the various extentions to it. The track and station plan was obtained from the NRM. All the station building still stand so these have been photographed and measured, the water tanks and coaling stage were taken from a drawing in Great Western Engine Sheds by Wild Swan Publications. I also own the orginal drawing for the public footbridge at the north end of the station, the only building I have had to count bricks and deduct meausrements is the small ex signal box later porters room at the end of the platform. David

When you get intimate don't say train in to the tunnel!

My photo research seems to show that the chocolate window scheme was still being appliled in 1919, although the white windows seems to have been applied by 1932 as a photo in Banbury & Cheltenham vol 1 of Cheltenham Spa station with white glazing bars to the platform screen in 1932. As I mentioned before the light stone seems darker than the light stone in the dark window scheme, so my guess is that Stone No.2 replaced Stone No.1 as the ligher colour when the the chocolate doors and windows scheme was dropped. So when was the change? David

I did raise that that style of application may have followed the fashion of the time earlier in this thread and if it had anything to do with the general trend following Prince Albert’s death and Queen Victoria going into morning for the rest of her reign when dark colours were very much in vogue. I do think there were exceptions to the dark window scheme, and wooden buildings do on occasions seem to have light sashes with very dark frames. I also wonder how GWR painters worked were they allocated to a division and just painted in a gang a certain number of stations which would take for example 5-7 years by which time they finished the last station they dropped back to the first station again, If this was the case it would explain why many in the same division had a uniform look. I have now looked through my Broad Gauge books (All photos pre 1892) and photos and the dark window scheme can be seen from Paddington to Penzance, so I think it must be taken as a standard application across the whole of the GWR system and any alternatives were a local variation. We need to consider pre-grouping companies like the Cambrian who would have had their own liveries. But it would be interesting to look to see if these pre-group company stations were repainted after 1923 with the light or dark window styles as this is around the time we start to see the white window sashes and casements being applied more generally.

There is a bit of a problem as it seems very early photos of some GWR stations up to 1870 do have light window frames, as I have photos of Princes Risborough (1868-1870), Loudwater (pre 1870) and two photos of Marlow Road later circa 1870 that all have light windows, by 1900 at least all these stations the window frames had gone to chocolate colour.

It seems strange you would leave a safe unattended on a platform. David

Here is a clouse up, seems to say Aylesbury to Paddington

Uploaded with ImageShack.us Here is a close up of the top photo I think the window is the same colour as the doors, the end wall is south facing and not shaddowed by the canopy, I still think these are Chocolate, the same as the columns except the part near the top which apears to light stone. David

Uploaded with ImageShack.us This photo of Aylesbury c1900 shows the footbridge with a one colour awining while the second photo that I posted before shows the striped awining so like Princes Risbough the striped valance can be dated 1907-1920

I have just been reading through the painting specifcations for signal boxes on the station colours website these are dated 1894 and 1907, interesing that the 1894 only gives three colours for the exterior of signal boxes, chocolate, white for window sashes and stone colour, the stone colour does not have a number so can we presume there was only one stone colour at this stage. The 1907 spec gives Chocolate Stone No.1 & Stone No.3 no mention of Stone No.2 at all. Looking at early photos there does only seem to be two colours chocolare and a light colour (stone No.1) by at least the turn of the century there seems to have been a third colour introduced (stone No.3) Great Western Way still says stone No.1 was only used as undercoat which is nonsense as it is listed in the official letters as above. What I am thinking is that the chocolate and very light stone (No.1) was replaced in the late 1920s or early 1930s by Stone No2 (darker and richer hue) and Stone No.3 with the chocolate only being used in some special locations. David

I am slowly going through all GWR books and photographs and trying to get more information on GWR building colours and I think the chocolate windows and doors was a standard aplication with examples from Paddington to the far west plus up to the Bimingham area, my latest book being checked is the Teign Valley Line there is a photo dated April 1924 which clearly shows this at Exeter St Thomas. I have found exceptions to the above, most turn of the century photos of the Seven & Wye wooden buildings seem to have light windows and paneled doors although was this an independent railway at this stage or GWR. In the Teign Valley book there is a photo of Chudleigh in 1905 which shows a wooden building with light window sashes but the framing round them is very dark chocolate again, plus the framing round the awing looks very dark too. I would think this is a local aplication rather than the standard style. David

This is a close up of people waiting on the platform of the second High Wycombe station around 1900, as can be seen doors, windows and panels plus frames all one very dark colour chocolate, the poster board is one colour without any white framing the cast notice on the door is black and white.

An original photo I purchaced this year which I think is Bourne End and never before seen or published. It does give a very plesent feel of a Victorian or Edwardian summer, if you look at the pillar supporting the canopy then the bottom part is very dark it then changes to a lighter colour but this is still not as light as the corner of the outside vallance that you can see at the top of the photo, again at least a three colour livery. David

If you compare both the black and white photos of Kiddiminster with Wycombe the light stone at Wycombe is much lighter which makes me belive it's stone No.1 rather than stone No.2. The tonel shade of No. 3 is simular in both the kiddiminster photo and Wycombe.

Another photo of Wycombe lighting, angle of dangle, sunlight etc, there is still three colours on the canopy. The colours the signal box seem different to the newly built station, although as I stated earlier the signal department had a different style to that of stations with white window sashes from early on. As a bit of added info is the signal box in the photo was only located here for a short time during rebuilding of the station, it opened in June 1903 and closed in 1906 then it was moved to Monorowen which I think is in Wales can anyone confirm. The building in the background on the left above the ballast wagons is the original Brunel Terminus trainshed the only photo of this building I have pre1940. David

How ever much you change the effect the white windows are still white and not Chocolate brown

One thing to note is the colours of light and dark stone on the building to the left is different to those on the right above the cab roof, the one on the right having more of a yellow content.

A vintage turn of the century photo of Kiddiminster although turn of 21st Century rather than turn of the 20th Century! One thing it does show though is how the white window frames show up in a black & white photo unlike when they are painted chocolate as per the period under discussion.

I think you may be right as I have found another photo with striped valances of Risborough in Country Branch Line Waltlington Branch that shows a train in full Creat Central Livery and is said to be pre first world war, if this is correct then the striped valances came in with the stations first repaint that I would think was around 1910-14. I have had a look through Great Western Branch Line Termini there is an officail photo taken on Lamboune taken in 1910 that clearly shows chocolate doors and windows very light awing and panels and possibly a slightly darker colour than the light stone between the light awing and chocolate framing. In the same book Tetbury goods shed is again pictured with dark windows and light bargebords. Watlington staition has dark doors and windows in 1892 but a 1936-37 photo shows light white windows. Abbortsbury station (a William Clarke Design) in a photo dated 1st May 1906 has dark windows and doors light valance mid colour framing and chocolate outer framing just like the other station, in the photo below dated 1933 it still looks like it has chocolate windows and doors, although the canopy has changed design. Princetown station dark windows in 1905 by 1935 a photo shows white windows and two colour paneled doors. I think therefore the dark window livery was accross the whole GWR system although when did it change, maybe we should now be looking at the latested dated photo when it apeared or the first dated photo that the white windows and two stone coloured doors apeared.

I did raise the topic before Great Western Way was revised last time and still nothing was updated, also I did contact the station colours website who declined to update their website. As i said before it's a bit of bugbear of mine when photographic evidence points to a style of painting that lasted at least forty years, yet still has not been published or corrected since the HMRS did their livery register many years ago, it seems that the same information including mistakes gets repeated time and time again. John Reed who I know and took paint samples and various notes disputed a few facts with them too when it was published espesilly the shade they used for light stone which had a grey content in the colour and has since been used by the Dean Forest Railway which does look really horrible, although the various dark and light stone shades used on preseved railways and used as examples of the correct colours on the station colours website vary quite a bit both in shade and colour. As I mentioned earlier the light stone in used 1880-1920 seems much lighter and brighter than that the light stone used later so I would think it is tint no.1 rarther than tint no.2 which is being used more. David

I have had a look through other books and photos clear examples of chocolate windows and doors so far Lamboune, Abbortsbury, Weymouth, I will see how far west I can get but I am sure it was a standard aplication. Sorry if this topic has gone off tilt from poster boards maybe the title should be renamed GWR structure colours 1880 to 1920s http://www.transportarchive.org.uk/getobject.php?rnum=L2357&searchitem=great western&mtv=L3&pnum=1 Above is a photo of Banbury just to show on timber buildings there was same style the chocolate window frames contrast with the light sone on the woodwork