Nick Holliday

There is no reason why black and white cows shouldn't appear on almost any layout. The Holstein/Friesian breed arrived in Britain in Victoria's reign, the import of them from The Netherlands was banned in 1892, because of foot-and-mouth, but the breed continued to flourish, albeit in a small way and in 1909 The British Holstein Cattle Society was formed. Importation of stock was allowed in 1914, but the breed saw its most dramatic expansion in the fifties. There are also several native breeds of cattle that are black and white, but perhaps not marked in the familiar way - Belted Galloway, Old Gloucester and the British White and Park cattle.

Whilst I agree the distinction is sound, and what I would expect, the LBSC in its carriage formations was very clear on the difference. However, this would mean that the third train doesn't have any break vehicle amongst the 20 carriages. I'd expect to have break vans topping and tailing such a train, particularly as at the date (1880) it is unlikely that an excursion set of four wheeled carriages would have automatic brakes.

I was just wondering what was so wrong with the old MWC kits. I know they were of their time, but I had no problems with the Cambrian and Highland cattle wagons I've built, and I have a full set of Scottish ones, including GNoSR, in my loft insulation. The separate etched W-irons mean that there is no problem with cast axle-guards integral with the sides.

According to the RCTS book on LNER Locos, 8891 WAS painted in lined apple green livery in November 1946, but no others were similarly treated, and 8891 eventually reverted to black livery. However, the first 10 J50's, built by the GNR in 1922, were painted in GNR green grey livery, so would have survived a few years into the LNER period thus adorned. The first LNER livery was lined black, although the lining was dropped in 1928. Edited because I have just bought the final book in the RCTS series, Corrections and Additions, and noticed a note that said that the GNR green livery was not applied.

Going off-topic, I'm afraid, but when looking at the BFA photo of Dartmouth Works, I couldn't help noticing that the nearby rows of houses all had roof windows, and it turns out they all had accommodation tucked away in the roof void. Perhaps that's how the houses in Coronation Street seem capable of expanding to suit the increasing number of occupants!

Looking through the various books of Edward Wallis's photos, taken from around 1922 - 1925, so showing late LBSCR practice, your basic colour scheme is correct. Southern Style 2 calls the main colours Maroon and Off-White, but I think there is room for interpretation between that and your choices, although I perhaps would go for a light stone for the paler colour. White for the glazing bars, certainly. However, I think the stairs are open season. There are examples, thanks to Wallis, of all over red and all over light colour, with plenty of variations in between. Commonly, the upright posts and the handrails themselves would be red, and the diagonal bracing on the platforms cream. The stringers are roughly 50-50 red or cream, and I haven't seen any suggestion of white. Perhaps the final colour scheme was at the whim of the painters, or the direction of the signalmen, or just the painters using whatever paint was left over from painting the main box structure. A view of Crawley box in Middleton's Crawley to Littlehampton seems to suggest the stringers and the intermediate upright on the steps were in cream, as was the diagonal bracing, whilst the single handrail and the main uprights were red.

The instructions for the LBSCR (a Westinghouse Brake line) for working with the Vacuum Automatic Brake state: All pipes operating Brake-blocks are painted Black, and all Pipes not operating Brake-blocks are painted a bright red. It is interesting that in BR days, a number of Southern and pre-Grouping coaches, after about 1955, had the metal work of the brake hoses painted a bright red, and some had a red band around the flexible hose as well. Presumably a different convention, as it is unlikely that these coaches were not automatically braked.

Brake hoses, in general, were probably made out of vulcanised rubber, and this was usually black in colour, as carbon black is added for extra strength, although they would appear as dark grey from any distance. Westinghouse pipes did not require reinforcement, as they only had to withstand internal pressure, and hence plain tubing could be used, with a smooth surface. Pipes for vacuum brakes had to withstand external pressure, requiring wired reinforcement to prevent the hose collapsing, hence the ribbing to the pipe, and sometimes, I think, a fabric covering. "The Big Four in Colour" is an excellent source for such details, including a thirties photo of a GER 0-4-0ST. Paint probably wouldn't last long on a flexible pipe anyway, but there is a picture of a Lord Nelson class, prepared for Royal Train duty, with a white painted front brake hose. The LBSC colour coding mentioned wasn't applied to the pipe itself, just the connectors (brass?), and I think the later standard was applied to the colour of the rigid section of the brake standard.

The LSWR has a dozen gunpowder vans that looked "exactly" like the GWR Minks, built to a similar design. The LBSC had four GPVs, but they looked like sheet-covered versions of their standard van design, so only tenuously similar to the GWR. Similarly the SECR, serving more explosive manufacturing companies than the others, has some 25 GPVs, again based upon sheeted versions of their standard designs. Several of all three companies' vans survived into the 1950s, in various guises. The SR wagon books refer to these vans being painted in standard Southern wagon brown, and not red.

Although it is being manufactured using a modern production technique, if not exactly in bulk production numbers, I wonder whether the process is currently up to achieving the flatness required for a metal sheet bodied vehicle. Experience with the recent SECR vans (I think I was lucky with my one example) showed up the potential failings, with the striations imparted by the process occasionally being visible. Even on a wooden bodied wagon, some people found the effect on their models unacceptable, and the sheer plainness of the Mink's flanks will make them, I suspect, even more noticeable. I just hope the team's experience with the SECR vans will see an improvement.

I've found the Scalefour Society forum thread describing the construction of the etchings in fantastic detail https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=132&t=5530&p=55626&hilit=suter#p55626 but I cannot find any details as to whether the kit is still available. Any pointers?

old-maps website has a 1970's OS map showing the out of use system. Part of it as this snapshot from their website.

Wouldn't Health and Safety require some means of controlling the public access to the car park through the goods yard? Perhaps not moving signals, but lots of signage as a minimum.

I recently posted a reply to a post by @Londontram regarding the LNWR Problem Class, and I was puzzled to find that I had apparently created a parallel posting, as there were then two threads simultaneously present. I assumed that I had posted at exactly the same time as another respondent, causing this duplication. My version of the post had the little star in the left corer, but ghosted, whatever that might mean. I could quite understand how, in the circumstances, my post might then have disappeared into the ether, but I was surprised to find that @Londontram had reacted to my post, but when I clicked on the notification I got this screen I'm not bothered about my words of wisdom disappearing, others came up with the same answer, I'm just curious to now what might have happened.

Although the SECR was fairly quick at fitting vacuum ejectors to ex-LCDR locos, they were in no rush to remove the Westinghouse equipment, especially on the 0-4-4 tanks, where it proved useful for the later type of pull-push equipment. For the 4-4-0 classes, the Westinghouse brake removal started around 1907, but several survived to grouping intact, although the Southern soon scrapped them. No doubt the retention of Westinghouse brakes on ex-LCDR locos reflected the need to work with LBSC coaches, the newly formed SECR not only had some 16 C Class built new with the air brakes, the R1 0-4-4 tanks built under their aegis to the LCDR design all arrived with air brakes too, as well as 16 of the new H class, and some ex-SER locos has Westinghouse brakes to deal with LBSC trains. The transfer of LCDR coaches to the Isle of Wight took place in 1930/1 - the Southern would have had plenty of time to remove the Westinghouse brakes if the SECR hadn't.

Try this one, a proper colour photo taken around 1905 at Eastbourne. https://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10692723&itemw=4&itemf=0001&itemstep=1&itemx=1 I hope the link works across the Atlantic.

According to an article by the Reverend Canon Brian Arman in Railway Archive Issue 38, his friend, Tudor Watkins, described "Both the Brecon & Merthyr and Neath & Brecon railways painted their locomotives in a deep brick red livery. Before the First World War , the engines were generally beautifully kept and more than adequately maintained". There is no mention of whether the lining matched, but there is an enigmatic comment "In their heyday, however, they presented a most colourful and contrasting appearance" with no further comment as to what they were contrasting with. The article goes on to say:"...the Midland Railway had worked the N&BR passenger service between Brecon and Ystradgynlais Junction and thence via the Swansea Vale Railway to Swansea since 1887, a working agreement which lasted until 31st December 1930." However, it adds "For a short time in 1889, the N&BR were forced to work the whole of their main line when they fell out with the Midland due to a dispute over rents and rates." The dispute was short lived, and the N&BR won the rates battle, prompted by the appointment of Sir Edward Watkin as their new chairman. It was through Sir Edward that the N&BR was able to borrow some MSLR rolling stock to get over the lack of Midland vehicles.

Dean Sidings are now under the Phoenix Paints umbrella https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/deansidings-lnerly but the B17/5 doesn't seem to be currently available, but it might be worth contacting them anyway.

HMRS drawings service https://hmrs.org.uk/drawings/standard-wagon-axlebox-e.html

Superimposing the wagon drawing over the loading gauges doesn't show up any clash, but is there any significance in the fact that the photo in Tatlow of the wagon's partner, 21650, as built, has square ends to its rather hefty buffer beam, whereas all the other machinery wagons in the book have the bottom end cut on the diagonal? There doesn't appear to be any writing on the side to back up the drawing - perhaps they found out by accident and applied the warning before getting round to trimming the beam?

Looking at https://www.devboats.co.uk/gwdrawings/loadinggauges.php there are details of a number of pre-grouping loading gauges. Although the Caledonian is a bit shy on the upper measurements, compared with the GER, the differences are small and shared with a number of major companies, including the NBR, MR, LNWR, GNR and GCR. However, comparing the two overall envelopes, as attached, it is clear that the Caledonian, in purple, had issues at near to track level, when compared with the GER, in orange, which is similar to the other companies' diagrams on the website.

Would the ROD 2-8-0 locos sent to Australia count? The Mersey Railway also had 2-6-2 tanks, rather prettier than the 0-6-4's, and a couple of them went to collieries too.

If you want a bit of variety, and your layout is based on South London, (not likely if there's an Adams Radial around!) some pre-grouping companies had their own coal depots scattered around, and locos such as the LNWR 0-8-0 (Bachmann) would be used via Clapham Junction, and GNR/LNER J50 (Hornby) and MR/LMS 0-6-0 tanks (Hornby and Bachmann) via Snow Hill tunnel, for deliveries.

Unfortunately the Q1 only appeared in 1942, so a bit outside the required period. @Oldddudders has suggested the H15, but like most Southern locos, their use was often confined to one of the three sections - Western (Basically LSWR), Central (LBSCR) and Eastern (SECR) - so much depends on the chosen location, although around London and Guildford all three came together, and some locos did get moved about the system. The Central (Brighton) Section did make use of tank engines for a lot of their goods workings, and Bachmann's E4 is a good subject, with some being allocated to ex-LSWR sheds, whilst the Terriers dealt with the goods trains to Hayling Island and other branches. Similarly the LSWR Adams Radials and Beattie well tanks handled all the goods on their territories. A fine mixed traffic class which got everywhere was the N Class 2-6-0, available from Bachmann.

Could well be the case. I was just making assumptions based on the rather poorly reproduced tender drawings in Talbot's book on LNWR Locos. Presumably that would use a solid half-round bar. Most other lines seem to have used a square section - the LNWR rounded face is a better aesthetic, but was it any stronger? I was also mislead by Jack Nelson, the doyen of the LNWR, and his isometric view of a Coal Tank, although I could tell he had got it wrong with regard to the placing of the coal rails outside the curved bunker plate, and a vague suggestion of a full round section. Unfortunately photos showing the inside of bunkers, even on tender locos, are extremely rare - the best I found was useless for this task, as it showed a tender fitted with tanks for oil burning trials, with any rails removed! This view of a Coal Tank was the best I could find, and I am not entirely convinced one way or the other, as the rails on the far side look pretty full bodied. I agree there had to be a vertical support at the corner - what I was discussing was, if each rail was split, each would require some fixings, perhaps as I have crudely noted in green. I appreciate that Victorian and Edwardian loco builders would have made sure that such fixings would be invisible when first built, but there doesn't appear to be any corresponding signs in later years when rusting would be more visible. It looks to me as if there was a single central vertical support by the tank filler, as there seems to be a slight gap between the rails and the curved bunker plate. Perhaps the OP should contact the custodians of No 1054 for their, hopefully definitive, answer.