Forester

So weary of this discussion.on the word "unrebuilt" As grammar school kids trying to get into railway works and other places we shouldn't be, the first thing we had to learn was that grammar didn't figure too highly in the world of the railway workers of the time! So we dropped the newly acquired posh accents and accepted that things were called by strange, unusual and sometimes contradictory words and tried to fit in. After all it doesn't matter what things are called as long as the people using them know what they are. Truck/Wagon, Carriage/Coach, Loco/Engine. As long as you know what is meant it doesn't matter. I saw my first rebuilt Merchant Navy in 1956 and the spotters were calling the others "Unrebuilt" before half the MNs had been through the works by the beginning of 1958. I don't know what the fitters were calling them at the time - probably unrepeatable, certainly ungrammatical. The point is the word was in use way back then. What's the point of attempting to erase it from history after all this time? In time-honoured railway fashion, if you call it Air-smoothed, he calls it Original and I call it Unrebuilt, we all know what we are talking about. Please let it go.

Sadly you cannot accurately extend the train unless and until someone produces the proper U type Pullmans rather than the modified K types in this pack. No-one has done the definitive Golden Arrow book yet. There are one or two moderately useful books but none I would really recommend. It would make a good subject for Antony Ford's Pullman series. The loco side of the operation needs looking at from a whole new direction as there is much misinformation and misidentification out there. Excellent subject for somebody.

I think the fact that they have chosen three modified K types puts paid to any imminent release of 1951 U types. The modified K's were often wrongly referred to as U's and I think the Hornby Customer Care person just perpetuated Hornby's description error.

Hornby Website this morning: "Visit your local model shop. Find yours today" You couldn't make it up!

I must say I disagree with you on IT. The essentials necessary to ensure Hornby's survival after Sanda Kan were to build a new Chinese production line and to put in 21st century IT. These are the very foundations necessary to compete in the current tough world economic climate that will be with us for at least another decade. This has been done - not necessarily brilliantly, and certainly very expensively, but completed all the same. Had Hornby not done this all might have looked well from the outside but the company would simply have followed all the other great British companies to extinction through lack of investment. What we now have is a company with solid foundations to build on, but a huge pile of debt. Agreed this was absolutely not the moment to mess with the marketing side of things and they paid a heavy price for that mis-timing. But the difficult and expensive stuff has been done. What is needed now is a bit of PR, and U-turn on undercutting retailers prices, more reliable delivery, and a stream of new products, both detailed, Railroad and Starter to return to profit and reduce the debt. I believe there's a good chance the bankers will look beyond the current apparent chaos and see the solid foundations now in place. I hope so anyway.

Ignoring the obvious minor errors, it seems to me to be a plausible piece by Simon Neville. It gets to the roots of the problem without being distracted by minor issues. The deciding factor now is whether Barclays will see it as a group with a credible plan worth investing further funds in or as a chaotic no-hope group best left to die. I would put money on Hornby being given another chance by the bankers. Probably the CEO's head was the price of a new deal. He was an IT man and at least the IT is now up and running. The production lines are working, albeit not yet smoothly. The products are selling, albeit in an erratic manner. The retailers are upset but that could be improved. Much of what is difficult has been done. What is left is mostly tidying, better pricing, better PR. I would give them a chance. Let's see if Barclays agrees. Edited to complete the post

i would have thought the one thing Hornby did get right in 2015 was the delivery of large numbers of top items into the shops before Christmas, so much so, many of us couldn't afford to buy all we wanted which was released at the same time. The whole profit warning statement blaming the sudden deterioration on a dip in sales in January doesn't stack up. This is just another example of a company in trouble through its own actions looking to find an excuse in other people's actions. In my view sales in late 2015/early 2016 have little to do with it. I think we will find that debt is at the root of all this. Hornby botched the China production plan. Getting out of it cost a lot more than they admit. Couple that with a clearly botched website upgrade which probably also cost more than they admit to put right. Couple that with a move out of Margate, the cost of which I suspect even the Board doesn't yet know and it results in £10m debt they will admit to, and probably much more on the way. Companies never blame their own mistakes, they always blame their customers. Whether Hornby is fixable depends mostly on what the final debt figure is when the website, the production and delivery line, and the new office/warehouse settles down. And whether the company stops throwing good money after bad. Not to mention whether they rebuild a relationship of trust with the people they deal with. I don't see much sign of that right now.

Worth pointing out that Barclays shares are also down 45% in the last six months and Barclays currently has extremely serious problems of its own putting its own independence at risk. Anyone believing Hornby's £9m debt is insignificant as far as Barclays is concerned should think again.

They are not selling at the prices Hornby are currently asking, John. Look at the bargain lists of all the well-known retailers.

No surprise here. All my 2015 Hornby purchases ended up in the bargain basement, back to the original prices they were promised at, after being massively increased when first released - prices I was foolish enough to pay even though "discounted" to the maximum permitted.. I am now sitting on my hands over the 2016 releases until the price freeze periods end and the true market prices reveal themselves. I'm not getting caught again. I supect many others are doing the same. Hornby needs to treat its UK customers a whole lot better than this.

Has no-one else spotted it's the first set of the new Tea-Tea scale?

Often the easiest way to identify the two blues is by the lining. The distinctive white-black-white lining of the later Express light blue shows up clearly in all light conditions and on all film types, colour and b&w (Hornby R3370 6021). The earlier experimental Ultramarine had lining similar to that adopted for mixed traffic locos, which showed up poorly against the deeper blue (DJ Models HK06 6025). (Off topic - Odd that mixed traffic lining is clearly visible on black but not on dark blue, or dark green).

The Hornby forum can be quite interesting at times but it suffers from a serious lack of informed comment. It would be nice to see more RMWebbers take an interest in it. If Hornby is to really establish itself as the leading quality producer then a decent intelligent forum would help it on its journey, to the benefit of us all in the end.

I'm afraid I have come to the end of pre-ordering. I think both the RRPs and the limited initial discounts allowed by the main manufacturers are unsustainable across the railway ranges. They sell what they can at these prices and then as soon as they are allowed, the retailers drop the prices massively to shift not just the remainders, but in my view the bulk of the products. I've made massive losses on every pre-ordered item I bought this year at the initial discounted price, only to see the prices plunge later. Not just talking about Hattons (I have always purchased from a range of suppliers). I suspect they are as frustrated by the policy of the manufacturers as much as I am. There are a number of newly-released Bulleids I would like. Apart from the Hornby Club Manston, I've passed on them all and will wait until they drop to sensible prices, as every other item I wanted this year has done. No way to treat customers (if you want them to remain customers), in my view. It could destabilise the whole production process if pre-ordering dies out. The retailers will have no idea how popular an item will be, and no idea how many to order. The manufacturer then will get no feedback on how many to produce. Not getting at Hattons, they are as much victims of the latest manufacturers' policies as everyone else.

Over the last 60-odd years I've run unrebuilt "Merchant Navy" models made out of cereal boxes, bashed about plastic kits, repainted Triang and Wrenn BoBs, cut about Hornby West Countries, dubious kits from Millholme and others ..... May I say definitively: I can accept a bit of misplaced fairing and wrongly sited safety valves ,just for now! Yes, I really, really can!

Yes. Telephone is the only way to use the £20 discount voucher on Manston at present. Fear not. It is a straightforward and pleasant transaction!

Possibly the moans were triggered by the fact that Channel Packet looked such a mess at that time, often uncleaned, with cutdown tender, and small BR early crest, compared to younger sister and stablemate Clan Line, newly overhauled with late crest matching the outline of the nameplates, original air-smoothed tender and polished 'til your eyes hurt. I remember the shock when first I saw CP in this condition rather than as it was commonly pictured in gloss malachite. Perhaps a cue for a new thread elsewhere on disappointing first cops!

Indeed, mine both fell off in transit saving me the bother ....

Now I also have a false memory of Channel Packet on the Golden Arrow ............ It's probably because of all the publicity photos, prints, jigsaws of the inaugural run which were around at the time. In fact Channel Packet never pulled the Golden Arrow again in all its regalia after the first couple of weeks re-introduction. It went back to Eastleigh and on to Exmouth Junction to work for many years! It lost the side sheeting arrow clips when it gained the large deflectors and these were never re-fitted when it found its way back to Stewarts Lane in 1957. Consequently it was used on the Night Ferry, often in very poor condition, and it never reprised its glossy finish GA heyday.

Fair point. But I'm a Golden Arrow fan so my 35028 Clan Line will end up on the Eastern Section suitably adorned sharing the duty with my exquisite rebuilt and renamed 35015 Rotterdam Lloyd. Now all I need is for Hornby to do the decent thing and produce the correct Pullmans for their 2016 Golden Arrow Last Steam pack ...........

Hornby has now told me 35023 and 35028 will be in BR green. Pleased with that, much as I liked the blue MNs, as I can run Clan Line 35028 with almost all the rebuilt MNs. It was one of the last two to be converted. Holland-Afrika Line 35023 was an early rebuild and can really only run with Hornby's rebuilt Bibby Line and Holland America Line.

Hattons say the BR MNs will both be in Brunswick green rather than in blue. Hornby hasn't confirmed that publicly yet.

Channel Packet and Royal Mail announced in as-built SR condition, as expected (at least for 21C1 - wonder if it will be in gloss?). Clan Line and Holland-Afrika Line announced in early BR condition ....... but in Green or Blue? Oh! The suspense.....

I have to say I am a bit miffed that the E4 is now being sold at a price very close to the one I originally ordered at but which the same shop refused to honour when it arrived in stock. It was my decision to accept and pay the much higher price asked. I'm not blaming anyone else. But in response I've changed my buying habits. I don't pre-order any longer and won't buy "ordinary" freight and mixed traffic locos within the price lock period. I still make a judgement with named express locos on what the demand will be and whether they will sell out quickly. I can see both sides of the issue but I'm not sure anyone will benefit in the long term from the general loss of confidence in pre-order prices and supply. Short term profits may rise but in the long term loss of trust is bad for business. Just my view.

If a coat of varnish can do that I need some on me ....