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For once, and sadly, we seem to agree on something. Oddly its in a thread arguing about accuracy of fake coaches that never existed too.

Agh, the pain of reaching out in dim light, to find theres no toilet roll.

Perhaps the model can pull them, afterall they are generic. perhaps we should maybe discuss these coaches being made in 1980’s Sectorisation liveries instead ? - Generic is Generic, and afterall GT3 is available in BR Blue, as is APT-E now available to buy in Intercity livery. But, How come a discussion of a phrase spoken in the 1950’s by alien in an upside down trash can visiting central park a few pages earlier not bewilder you ? - are these coaches offered with sounds of generic languages too ?

Need to be careful though… if you make a new budget model and demand for it is high, someone else will come along with a high spec one, and leave your bath half empty… I suspect thats why Hornby's retooled the P2 to head that off before 2007 emerges. Imo it only works for extreme cases (Lower volume or Higher cost barrier) prototypes…. I think KR for example is treading that path very well and choses its extreme prototypes carefully. Risk should be considered in context though, its unlikely anyone else will consider Bulleid DD EMU. But how much money is really in the market for “low risk” stuff like a Manor… when two go head to head on it in paralell… of the two, to me the DD seems a safer bet… why ? each one sold is a double sale (2x packs of 2 coaches)…MOQ becomes 50% that of a Manor to be viable, which is a single set of loco and tender with a higher assembly cost due to the detailing bits, but youve also got head to head competition, and a fall back budget end s/h market for those who won’t/can’t afford… myself, i might buy 2 DDs.. thats 4 sets of driving and trailers. To achieve parity, i’d need to buy 8 manors, 4 from each company.. i’m very unlikely to do that. More over the DD could be “railroad plus”.. i’d still buy it if the price reflected it..if I want a DD ive no choice.. if one of the Manors is railroad.. ive Bachmann and Mainline to fall back on. So the Manor might be glamourous.. but is it gold ? Back to point..in view of above.. How much risk would a railroad class 88 or even a railroad Gladstone 0-4-2 be at this stage…?.. a Railroad 89 or a Railroad Paget loco might be safer…indeed for KR I would be surprised if Big Bertha isnt in their thoughts.

It depends on your view.. Was the market for diesel prototypes (10000 etc), or Steam prototypes (71000), or industrials (Peckett ), or Super detailed wagons (HUO) all by accident or design ? Each one changed the hobby. Each one required someone to take a risk, and in doing so opened a previously unknown market… we now have even extreme examples like DHP1, 6202, Kerr Stuart, and KUA wagons leading up more than 30 other “no one would ever believe” toolings behind them in the last 5 years. Imagine the opposite..Hornby could have made 7000+ class 66’s and hang themselves with it, whilst Hattons 66’s could have eaten them alive…lf Hattons had opened 66’s to trade from day 1, they probably would have too. They arent the first, Lima once made a loco that had no accurate rtr wagons for it to pull for 24 years…. Dapol made a loco that still has no coaches for it to pull, but is now onto 4th/5th iteration and is the rarest version to find… I can say Hornby more than most has shown the light in this regard… Peckett, 71000, P2, Railroad plus, super detailed break vans… they shone new lights on to new markets that others have since exploited… that said they did bring Freak steam too..not everything's a winner…does that make it an accident or a design ? its neither, its calculated risk.

I think this is where Hornby has been right on the mark here. The railroad 66 (and recent 47’s) have been very successful, more than 30 produced and mostly sold out. The reason for success isnt to be found on these pages, but more likely the secondary/college/university school playgrounds and more relevant the recent graduates laptop. What Hornby did is reproduce Limas sales strategy from the 1990’s.. Forgoe accuracy for a good paint job at a price that appeals to a modern younger audience, and relevance. Its noteworthy Hornby reintroduced the railroad 67 (and a gbrf 73), they are growing, not shrinking this market, and they are alone in it. Until recently Heljan occupied this niche of “railroad plus”.. with prices at the lower end of the “detailed” spectrum, but detail/livery above the basic level. Accuracy isnt everything, price matters to a group of enthusiasts, to understand this mentality, forget your mortgage free home with a nice pretty layout, and wind back your clock to the 1990’s or late 60’s, when you had no girlfriend, no mortgage, no kids but just got your first paid jobs after school… the hobby still means something, you still have close mates who you hang out with at galas, opendays or just the platform end, you dont read rmweb but you do read gen/facebook/instagram groups telling you whats moving where… thats who this is appealing to. I’m not debating the benefits of new toolings to serve these groups (as the business logic for not tooling it was in my above post), however I do think for modern EMUs cutting down to the basics ( a good body designed for after-market fitting of such gadgets, crucially with a good paint job) designed in such a way that 15-20 years from now (or sooner should competition try to nibble the success), you could switch to rtr those gadgets without a full retool, then you could be onto something… that was the mistake Lima made.. they didnt future proof their toolings so upgrading wasnt possible cheaply and competitors ate their dinner. Vitrains probably called it right and learned from this, but they had 2x competition, and from China at 2000’s rates…if they’d moved to China the new Bachmann 47 may not yet have been here. For EMUs this i see is the only future as right now they are priced over the horizon even for the mature well funded collectors to buy in qty, and they are the wrong demographic for modern units anyway… I suspect the new 755 may fall down in this regard, possibly (imo)to misguided cries of “I told you so”.

its interesting in that several posters ask for “railroad-esque” ranges. (I too think there is some merit in it), but I dont think those interested to buy it frequent these pages, and those in power to make it fully understand the desire (other than cheap). However behind every business is money. lets compare a 66… Hattons and Hornby… It has a tooling of a similar size and costs probably similar amounts to make, store and use that tooling. The paint masks of a either 66 in the exact same livery would be probably be the same. it takes space in a container, warehousing, postage. So whats the difference between a Hattons 66 and Hornby 66..? probably the assembly time of those extra bits on the sprue, and some minimal savings of electronics and a lump of metal weight. That makes one a fantastic level of detail and the other a basic model. However that difference is the difference between £60 and £160. More importantly 30% of £60 is £18, 30% of £160 is £48. now your a business, you want to make a new class 99…. for very similar factory costs above, similar sunk costs on tooling, plus logistics and shipping, which one is better for your investment considering the market size is fairly static for that model regardless either route you chose ? thats my opinion why we dont see new railroad, even if it might be a good idea for lower consumer costs, it doesnt seem to me to be good business ?

I was once on Santa Monica market and saw fresh oranges for sale on a fruit stall, they had a sticker on, warning that organic foods could contain harmful bacteria from their natural environment. if you pay politicians enough, they can get anything passed as a hazard or a health warning. 10 miles either direction in the more hispanic areas, you’ll not find anything like such warnings on fruit. Its all about mitigating legal risk, or creating competitive barriers that increase revenues.

Feel for me, ive got 12 of these to hide…. original plan was to swap them 1:1 for Bachmann ones thinking it would be net zero space. Fillers not going to do it, I’m gonna need a bigger excuse…

Is there a picture of the box anywhere ? (I recall seeing it a while back but think it got lost), but seem to recall it was the size and weight of a Breeze block ?

Here its been done… whats more its got dead rail out of the box.

To think it all started with a humble sparrow in Stratford.. (flickr/not my image)

Thats a very state of the art tampo printing machine. I remember the days of each print being applied by a manual operator who had to align and load the machine one colour/ oneside at a time. This ones older but can do several in one pass

Ah apologies, I've relabelled/re-ordered to keep the flow consistent in the images. Dapol is Green / upper image , Hornby is black / lower images throughout now. interestingly the Dapol versions tanks are 1mm longer, and the front end plate around 0.5mm longer, but length over buffers is the same. The edges to the tanks, and bunker are noticeablely thinner on Dapols model. (note my Dapol one shed a rear buffer in this image). i’ll rein it in there as its about Manors and not a Prarie review, at the end of the day modern plastic detailing on models scanned or from CAD are full of confidence, but this is why I’m looking at the mechanism and performance rather than just the cosmetics…

Thanks I always do my own (and commercial repairs in the past too) going back to my teenage years, I even did manufacturers return/repairs too funding my uni years. Ive easily rectified over 3000 locos in my time, (including every single one of the 750 Limas 42760 limited edition back in the 1990’s). Hence I self insure my collection from a warranty perspective (i need to as I often travel / have commitments that prevent me testing every new arrival within that warranty period). The points are : 1. if youve got to make your own parts because you cannot get them. But more importantly.. 2. it can be the prettiest loco on your shelf, but if (a) the livery is wrong (60015, 34050, NR HST), (b) its assembled / designed wrong/incorrect (6922, 31147, dj13xx, 60156) (c) it has a challenging mechanism to purpose (Dj71, DJ 14xx, 18000, Garratt) then your stuck with major work to which the value rapidly diminishes, warranty repairs or spares are irelevent. In that regard, point 1 becomes nebulous, even if they offer repairs. I prefer Dapol, over Hornby, its more thought out, spares you can get and assembly I find generally better than Hornby… it doesnt mean they dont sin… the 73 and 121 needed some forgiveness, the 73 failed on more importantly on point 2(c) also. I should add Dapol spares (Shinedew/Biomode etc) are easier to source as they are used across multiple commissioner's ). Some of Hornby's can be kind of unique, and I've found quality control more variable too. Hence my point… I prefer Dapols Prarie to Hornbys, with both I know what i’m getting. Hilux actually agreed with me, even by contradicting… as his issue wasnt cosmetic but technical. For me, The Manor, will be on its merits 1,2 above, both of them as I’m already convinced the detail and accuracy will be there, I can live with a 1mm discrepancy on a wheel diameter (if its the case suggested). weight I find isn't always a wow factor, if it turns out the motor isn't upto it or the gearings off… (Hornbys Prarie is a bit too sprightly at low speed and too fast at upper speeds, Dapols is much better at slow speed but its weight is adversely holding back the upper speed, but its pull is stronger imo). I didnt just make it up, i pulled them both apart.. Heres some science… 1st Hornbys Prarie motor vs the budget Electrotren 0-6-0T… and both Dapol / Hornbys chassis & motors compared… cylinder widths.. Dapol, then Hornby wheel diameters..(Dapol upper, Hornby lower). Ease of dismantling… simply what you need to get the body off.. (Hornby is an easy win, fairness you should really only remove the body to fit DCC and with Dapol its just the smoke box door to remove, that said “just” involved some faff. Dapol upper, Hornby Lower compare quality of the connecting rods screws, rivet, oil corks on the bearings, rod fluting, and the wheel rivets.. I cant see How anyone thinks Hornbys wheels are better ? Dapol real thing… 4144 at Didcot Hornby.. weight, amps and drawbar… Hornbys lower weight 235g is offset by its (imo) railroad quality motor that revs up and is geared fast, despite the flywheel, where as Dapols stronger motor and smoother lower gearing is partially lost by its 322g weight. Hornbys starts on 0.02amp and maxes out at 0.18amp Dapol starts on 0.06amp and maxes out at 0.12amp, so it wins on the energy bill, but not on start up, only when running at speed. Hornbys runs across a range of speed that is a little erratic, but max speed is close but higher than Dapols which has a lower range of speed to control. The Dapol one easily out pulls Hornbys, I dont have the figures to hand, but recall one being in range of 50-60g draw bar pull, the other being closer to 120g… not a lot but on a flat you dont need it.

I didnt need to disassemble my Hornby one, it did it itself. Now when a handrail breaks off, will you try a Dapol one for spares ? I find Dapol better than Hornby in general, in quality, in price and in spare parts availability. We dont know how Accurascale will offer spares yet, its untested, but I do like the ease of use of DCC Supplies for Dapol (and formerly Howes for Heljan), and Bachmanns new spares site. I dislike Gaugemasters site (Heljan) and Hornby just seems like an haberdashery of adhoc/pot luck. But spares are important in self-after care, and graphical self service is important when you dont know what that 1mm by 3mm circular bit in green is… or if it was ever there but in red. (I put this here knowing it will be read across the sea). That a model needs attention out of the box to work, is a sad reflection of the hobby today, but I find it an issue shared by all companies, not just Dapols prarie, but the Hattons 66 (this was a feast), KR GT3 ( front bogie), Heljan 86’s (broken buffers), Bachmann 158 (coupling) , Oxford N7 (coupling) Rapido 16xx (still awaiting that replacement board 12 months later)…, hold your breath dare I say it but even my Accurascale PFAs had issues (missing bufffers, broken lugs).. My list can go one.. A few minutes with a file on a Dapol prarie is better than trying to source new cylinders and rebuilding the motion on a Hornby one, because the factory didnt tighten the coupling screws and the wheels were not true set in the axle grove, and finding out the hard way… All manufacturers are sinners, its about how much forgiveness you will accept… my baseline start is low, ive been through the mill many times…

All my life its been known as Intercity Swallow livery, since I saw 87201 painted in undercoat version, 3/4 complete at Crewe works openday in July 1987.

As always i’m waiting not on the detail, as these days theres not so much in it, but how accurate the livery application and the mechanism that powers it. I like the 2-6-0, and the Prarie is better than Hornbys in my opinion. The numbers I would like to have seen are 7819 (in lined black) and 22/28 in 1960’s lined green. Given how bespoke detailed each loco is, i’m not sure renumbering an existing one would do it justice. I’m wait an see for now on both.

Good, I spent my money on Deltics instead of bitcoin. 😀 I suppose later this year i’ll be able to trade my Deltic for a loaf of bread and get an Accurascale 37 in my change.

I thought it was odd commercially the cheaper ones came first myself, as it meant they sold out and sound lingered. Reversing that means the “must haves” don't wait and buy first.

If G&W sells out. (i think its yack myself) but i see its appeal, I could imagine a next wave of 90’s being the DVT grill, so a trio could include GA, another G&W and an LSL Intercity 90.

Showing your age (and mine) there then… Ive seen all 3 of them on the mainline, indeed I saw 46229 same day as 55015 (and it wasn't yet withdrawn).

Copied from page 1 of the thread… nothing about nameplates being fitted, and it says both NEM and a detailed bufferbeam. Not sure the fuss ?

It definitely did some mainline work like this, see here, even the headcode matches… (and the keen eyed would know this Trio’s destination was actually the same place my “hard standing and sidings” picture is ( or was back in 2004).

You what they say about Black sheep…