acko22

Hi Dungrange, The KUA wagons are always escorted when loaded, if they are travelling as in the picture it will be for: 1) Positioning moves 2) To / From maintenance locations - this includes a test run post maintenance 3) Driver Training / certification The KUA wagons when loaded have always travelled with Mk2 escort coaches, prior to the KUA and the Mk2 the MOD trains used Mk1 Escort coaches but not sure on the wagons. It has been the case for many years that any MOD nuclear traffic was escorted and had to have 2 locos for security

Why does it have to be someone that is already in the market? As long as any party which may want to have a shot at the APT-P proposes it with a what it was missing in the first place. If someone did a proper business plan with appreciation of the costs, the potential market size and if crowdfunding not start using funds on the project until it has hit its funding target then I see no reason why not. That been said while in OO I think it could come to fruition in N gauge I don't think there is enough of a market at a reasonable price to make it a reality.

Hi all, Honestly while I would to see one in N gauge in my case, regardless of gauge to make it honestly viable for any manufacturer you are talking an update of 1000+ models where all the tooling is guaranteed to be utilised to be financially. When you consider the costs for tooling these days which is where the single biggest individual cost is no manufacturer is going to do a cheap version it would be a case of all singing and dancing or nothing at all, if you start messing making 2 versions (DCC with lights etc and a basic or "railroad" version) the likely reality is the price would pretty much be the same when you take the logistic of doing the differences would suck up the few pennies you save from not having a few extra wires and lights. The best bet to for this model does rest at a properly managed crowdfunded project where nothing is spent until the minimum order quantity has been meet and the money is there. With recent events around DJM I don't think that makes it a palatable option for anyone who may use that business model and I doubt the likes of Hornby would use a crowdfunding method.

And here lies the question which makes the sums almost impossible to accurately calculate. When it comes to Expressions of interest I work on the "aghan" rule if they were saying there was 50 Taliban then divide that number by 5! Lots of people can be interested but how many that translates to if completely different especially when you consider how much the APT was advertised at!

Hi All, Firstly I have to say this as people are coming back to this the whole IP issue, they are not worth the internet space as it shows a shape and that is it there is nothing that defines it uniquely. Anyone can produce a model of say the mermaids themselves so as long as they do their own work it can be almost identical but at the end of the day there is only so much difference there can be in a representation of a real thing. I think with the may announcement it was a prelude to this in all honesty with DJM trying to make an asset out of a picture, which are in the cold light of day pretty much worthless. As for the full CADs and any tooling work that has been worked on, CG and CO to tell customers that there is no money to refund then it leads me to believe that they have them and they may not been paid for the work that's been done. In which case they will take control as payment or as part of a claim to regain some of their loses. With all this and by his own announcements DJM was NOT designing the models but was project managing and badly at that, with everything that has passed now the class 17 debacle was the first indication that things weren't been done right. After this he announced some crowdfunding projects which honestly the way he managed them for me appeared more a pre-order scheme in the hope the minimum order quantity would be reached and all have failed to do so leaving gapping holes in finances and actually would give some credence to him announcing numerous models to try and balance the books which hasn't happened leading to the current state of affairs. I am not going to do I told you so for a number of reasons: Many people may not known of his previous ventures (N'thusiast resprays as an example) Some may have heard of him at Dapol and thought that he did a good job there (working as part of a team doesn't make you great on your own) Finally it was a new manufacturer offering new things and "higher standards", makes a tempting offer especially when it's models people do want. And my last point, while I fully understand people are not happy with what has gone on and with DJM making the claim "his house is been used to fund / his house is on the line / he has remortgaged his house" , but searching zoopla for house prices is a little far fetched. If he has done what he has claimed on a few occasions then that is his choice and doesn't really involve us!

Hi all, I look at crowdfunding in much the same way as banking investments with high, medium and low risks. As other have so well pointed out part of that risk assessment in in the people behind a project, what their plan is, how they will use their funds and track record if there is any! Outside the modelling world there are plenty of success stories just as there are raging failures who have used crowdfunding and we have proof of this in the modelling world right now. What I think makes crowdfunding actually really difficult in the modelling world is crowdfunding works for the more niche market of which there is a fine like between mass production on one side - niche - not viable in the slightest on the other, and depending on your chosen gauge effects how many companies can really occupy that space, don't get me wrong I think in all gauges there is room for more than one or two maybe but only if managed well, if they aren't they are soon found out but sadly generally some people will and have found out the costly way! I have to say that I have found that when I compared prices for my crowdfunded models, I found that when I did some maths I was saving money compared to the scenario if one of the traditional companies did it instead. But if I want niche I know I will have to pay a premium and have to accept that there is a risk but how well that risk is managed by a crowdfunded project is a factor I we all have to balance on our own RISK Vs REWARD balance

After a quick look and asking someone better versed in this type of thing than me, the IPs named owner are DJ Models Ltd, so they would be company assets rather than his own private ones. But in that same thing the value of them is only there if someone is willing to pay for them! Which I would suggest unless there is tooling to go with the IP and Cads is highly unlikely

So if I haven't invested I shouldn't comment? Even if I have what I have to add may get me to invest in future or may get an answer that makes other willing to invest? As for negative attitudes and investments its exactly that an "investment" until models pass into peoples hands is business and if people aren't happy or comfortable with something or don't feel they are getting the answer to warrant them handing over cash there will be negativity! Lets look at other recent faux pass by others and people said the don't "if you can't be positive go away line", and things aren't playing out so well there it seems! But onto my where I stand, right I am not going to invest as it't one of them models where I would not go out of my way to get one more if they exist (which in n gauge so far looks questionable) then why not I like the occasional niche and unusual model! So @KR Models please don't take offense at this I am hoping you take this as constructive criticisms rather than just trying to slam you down! But things did ring alarm bells with myself when this thread came to pass in November and I have kept quiet wanting to see how things pan out through interest! So here are my points: So to start, as pointed out you started asking for EOI on Facebook in May last year but very little people heard of it until November on here and within days things turned negative on here as you hadn't made a presence on the forums so no one had a clue about you. This has mean't and rightly so if people are asking for money we would want to know more about who they are and the outcome of this had unintended consequences! One tool they used was image search from your picture from the website and they found it in multiple places relating to various aspects of your life (which you have answered too) but for a lot of people it asked more questions than it answered. So you have come out as an unknown and there were lots of questions on here which remained mostly unanswered until March when you joined which by this stage due to things going largely unanswered made potential customers turn away. So prevent that now you are on here for any future project I would say it may be advisable to hit Facebook and forums like this at the same time so everyone quickly grasps who you are and what you are looking to do, it gives us as potential investors in your business a warm fuzzy feeling knowing who we are dealing with. Also your picture on the website, while it is professional and I have no doubt it is you having seen you at Warley myself for those who haven't, I would suggest you change it for one that hasn't already been used on the internet as this could has did raise questions, this been as very little people knew you "Is it one of those stock pictures marketing firms can pay to use?". I would suggest it may be worth changing it to something new that hasn't been online so if people do an image search it comes back to you website only. The address you are using while appreciate you want to keep your private address that, PO boxes do raise even more concerns I understand how they work in Canada as I have worked there (In Alberta near Medicine Hat) and my work use a PO Box, but if you look at other manufacturers they all have a physical address. The reason i say this if you link it into the point I make about your picture if you add them together it makes alarm bells ring and people start to wonder are you one of the African princes where if you send them some cash you will get access to that inheritance from the family you never had! Where as if you have an actual physical address it soothes them concerns straight away. Final one and i say this with a recent incident / faux pass which has not done the whole crowd funding in the modeling world any favours! You recently posted about already looking at follow on models which you are looking at, I would possibly suggest that until you have something physical of the GT3 not to go to far with it other whys comparisons may start to be drawn with the recent faux pass of "announcing lots but nothing delivered". That just opens you up to a whole world of problems that you don't want to have to worry about! As I say I am not trying to slam you down but be more constructive about issues that I have had as well as others who have been more err.... vocal in less constructive ways! As I say until until people get the models in hands it's more a business investment rather than a hobby investment and the more feathers that can be soothed the better for you! And I do wish this project the best of luck, although it looks like the OO version is nicely on its way!

Hi all, Dave is away till the 17th on holiday / in china what ever that's all that can be said on that should he not choose to communicate on this forum or via his website about the concerns and issues raised then that is up to himself only. If he has the ability to communicate and isn't then by the fact we are on page 53 of what is a well lets be frank a negative response then its doing him a lot of harm! I am fully aware that people on here and elsewhere have invested in projects he has began which currently appear to be stagnating severely and it's them I feel for, but the fact people are bringing up his past business ventures and what appears to be happening now it really is showing a negative track record for him which is unfortunate for all involved. i say this as lets be honest the more manufacturers and more models in the market is good for us, but if he cannot carry the projects through to the end it isn't doing anyone any good. It's at the stage now where we do seem to be going round in circles on this thread asking the same questions in different ways, delving into the what if's x,y,z and the only person that can solve this is Dave himself and not by making another statement or written update, but by showing some physical proof may that be pictures of actual tooling or getting actual models into the market. So all in @DJM Dave the ball is firmly in your court, lots of people want answers time to step up to the plate!

Hi all, I think after 4 days and what has overwhelmingly been a negative response which has certainly raised more questions and concerns than even he expected! I think DJM has put himself into a legal minefield which I honestly don't think he is prepared to deal with. That been said can he recover yes but only by shutting up with the announcements and comments he has made. Added into that actually getting models onto the market to the "higher standards" he proclaimed. Should he fail to do so then I think the writing is on the wall after this episode. So all in the ball is now firmly in his court and is his final chance to salvage things, either actually produce some results or fold!

Lets clear the misconceptions: Crowdfunding is a method of funding which is in effect a form of investment just like you get in banks low/medium/high risk, this can be done by anyone in any format they wish so in model railways we put in our money in expectation of a model, what risk you classify it as is up to you. Kickstarter is purely an organisation that facilitates crowdfunding activity, although by using them it gives a higher degree of protection to both parties in a crowdfunding activity. They do this by asking the proposer a for a working business plan to show how they intend to proceed should the funding goal be reached, which while shows a working plan is still by no means a guarantee of an end product. For the investor kickstarter can and do hold on to the funds until milestones are reached in the case of modelling, release funds for design and CADs to be done before the next set of funds are released for tooling etc. Should this not be reached Kickstater can then refund the investors equally what is left in the fund. The down side to using Kickstarter is there is a fee payable to them which as an admin charge to manage the finances. While many firms across many industries have show that the crowdfunding model can work there has been many failures some more spectacular than others. This is DJM where needs to hammer down and show that he can make this funding model work to his advantage as goodwill and investors are starting to turn thier back!

Hi all, Well this is my bit on here over this debacle: Firstly I have challenged him else where on this but in that first announcement (before the backlash and back peddling) he made some very strong accusations aimed at other manufacturers, retailers and a factory he used (one which other manufacturers use without issue). Well DJM if you are going to point fingers come out straight with it as some of these comments in themselves could be seen as libellous against them parties. Also and I have been duly informed by a friend who owns a engineering business in Trafford Park that unless you have it in written contract which by your own word "I am old school and have always believed that the value of a person’s word is gospel" which suggests there may not be one. Then as a contracted party paid to do the work by Hattons and Kernow to produce a model any work carried out remains the property person(s) or organisation including any and all design work. So you actually unless as previously stated you have a contract that states you own the design outright, it remains the property of the person who paid for the work to be carried out. Therefore you have no rights to claim the IP on those commissioned models! May I suggest in this case a flaw in your own diligence and not that of the retailers, who have every right to go direct to the factory with designs they own!

Hi Everyone, A floating visit as I am still away with work and the Internet is not exactly amazing here! Models are in the post if not already on your door step and I hope you have hours of enjoyment with the model (mine is staying firmly in its box but that's personnel choice - when I get home to get my hands on it that is). The thanks must go to Revolution trains, Dapol, and Freightliner for been so willing to be part of this project but also to all you for been so willing to purchase a model with the profits going direct to the ABF The Soldiers Charity.

Hi All, My apologies for the prolonged absence I have been a busy boy in the day job! But good news the models are in the UK somewhere the logistics people have them and the moment they arrive with Dapol I will be making my merry way there to collect them and start the process of getting them in the post to all those of you who have ordered one. Models are still available to purchase for 105 plus P&P at: http://www.revolutiontrains.com/product/Dapol-66418-patriot-limited-edition/ This is a one time only production run of 250 so when they are gone they are gone there will be no reruns of this model. Thank you all for you patience during this and all the support you have shown for the project. Thanks Gareth

Anyone else think the DB logos just stuck on the Royal class 67s look tacky? I would say cheap but that's because they are, would have thought they would have put some effort in with some more fitting DB logos on then bit like EWS had on there!!

Hi all, As already pointed out the topic of the door was discussed on here and elsewhere with the consensus been stripped doors and given that the doors have only started been changed over in the last 12 - 16 month time frame (IIRC) it makes perfect sense in my mind that the model comes with stripped doors. If there is another run at a later date I have no doubt Ben and Mike will look at the doors as one of the livery changes as that livery alteration will have been around for a greater percentage of the pendolinos lifespan. So stripy all the way for me as it give the best representation and well lets be honest if it wasn't for Ben and Mikes hard work we would still be moaning about not having a pendo never mind a recent change to the livery on doors!! So a huge thanks to Ben and Mike for having the guts and ability to make it happen!

Hi All, Well I am back from living like a tramp! Today after work I made a visit to Dapol to collect the second deco sample and have a detailed look over it, there is a few very minor tidy up points which will be dealt with. This is the good bit now with them points noted and been fired off to China, now the bit that well brings great relief and joy for me!! With the minor tidy up points THE PRH CLASS 66 "PATRIOT - IN MEMORY OF FALLEN RAILWAY EMPLOYEES" WILL BE GOING INTO PRODUCTION BY THE END OF THE MONTH!! I know it isn't as speedy as was hoped but I wanted to make sure it was right! The aim is to have the models in the UK no later than the York Show, those that have pre-ordered will receive them as soon as is reasonably possible, although I will have a busy few days boxing and shipping as both Mike and Ben know too well its a big job!! I will get pictures up as and when possible! Regards Gareth

Hi Everyone, OK firstly my apologies for the delay on posting anything about the project from well to long if I was honest, things have been mental and I have been running round like a blue A**e fly! Since Christmas things have been slower than I would have liked due to many a circumstance outside of my control but I have still been working on things when I can, firstly I have produced a newsletter and when I can get it within limits for a download I will upload it on here But this week while I have been living in the trees and ice I received an email from Dapol who have received the second sample, I will be collecting it next week and reviewing it. If all is good then it will be a trip to Freightliner HQ to get their sign off and when we have that the models will be on the first available production slot. I will be sending out a new newsletter when I get hold of the model for all to see and follow the progress of the model. Regards Gareth

Callum, The IR lights are visable just to the naked eye, but they are very dim and to be honest I wouldn't bother they are that dim they would barely be noticeable if at all when it comes to modelling and trying to get a light that dim well difficult! Gareth

It was a pleasure to meet yourself Gerry and many other forum members this weekend. Ok my first Warley weekend not as a member of the public and what an experience! Firstly a huge congratulations must go to Ben Ando and Mike Hale of Revolution Trains on been awarded the Gwyn Humphrey Award today although I missed that bit while I was getting some 'Fresh air' And back to "Patriot" I received the first Deco Sample on Friday and their are some mistakes and things that need cleaning up the basic design is their. The new G & W markings are on the sample and looking good and perfectly done already its just the things that make "Patriot" different amongst its 66/4 classmates which we are now working on to make the model identical to the day it was named at Crewe I have the sample with me and will get some picture up in due course for everyone who wasn't able to make Warley get a peek at it this first Deco Sample to get a taste of what the final model will look like when it arrives on your doors in due course. I will finally be getting around to working directly on the Project website updating it and getting a newsletter out to keep you all informed of the news relating to "Patriot", (A very full time Military Career, the real loco naming and working with the model has taken up all of my time until now) so within the coming week now the naming is done I can get to concentrate on the website and the model alone (well around work anyhow). The model sales are live at: http://www.revolutiontrains.com/product/Dapol-66418-patriot-limited-edition/ This is a limited edition model and very much a first come first served model, this will never be produced again so if you want one please get your order in for this unique model in support of and directly raising funds for ABF - The Soldiers Charity. I sadly now have to make a point clear after reports that were made to me over the course of the weekend which went as follows: THE ORGANISATIONS INVOLVED ARE TAKING A CUT OF THE PROFIT SO THE ABF WAS ONLY GETTING A PERCANTAGE OF THE PROFITS FROM THE MODELS THIS IS TOTALLY UNFOUNDED AND A COMPLETE LIE, ALL THE PROFITS ARE GOING DIRECTLY TO ABF - THE SOLDIERS CHARITY Dapol, Revolution Trains and Freightliner have all contributed their time and expertise to this project knowing full well that there is no profit in this project for them and they have all volunteered to be part of this project to HONOUR THE PAST AND HELP TODAY, I think it is very disappointing that individuals not linked to this project feel the need to spread the false comments and should they wish to come forward and make them publically then I will happily deal with their comments. Finally on a happy note, congratulations to JAMES EDMUNDS who was the winner of the FREIGHTLINER cab ride between Crewe and Carlisle, your details have been passed on to my contact at Crewe who will be in contact in due course to organise this rare opportunity. Thanks Gareth

Jim, Was a pleasure to finally meet the man behind the name ay Warley and looking forward to more pics Gareth

Hi All, Last Chance to get online raffle tickets for a Freightliner Cab ride between Crewe and Carlisle only £5 a ticket with all the money going direct to the ABF - The Soldiers Charity. http://www.revolutiontrains.com/product/project-railway-honour-raffle-ticket-freightliner-cab-ride-2016/ For any of you going Warley come and see the first deco sample at stand C31 where Revolution Trains are hosting me and Project Railway Honour where you have a final chance on the Saturday to get a raffle ticket, you never know you could get some models a first look at what Mike and Ben announce (I have no idea either) and possibly a cab ride on a real operational freight service! You never know it could be PATRIOT itself!

Hi Sir Douglas, I have been keeping an eye on PATRIOT as and when I can and I know it seems to be working to and from Doncaster / Leeds a bit at the moment, although a few of the guys at Crewe want to have it over at Basford Hall more often than not since the name is so closely linked to Crewe. Gents there is only 2 days left to get your a raffle ticket online for the cab ride between Crewe and Carlisle with the final tickets been available from the Revolution trains stand at Warley C31, the tickets are £5 with all of it going to ABF - The soldiers Charity.

Hi All, Just a little bump the Raffle for the cab ride finishes online a week today at 16:00, this is a rare oportunity if not near impossible to get these days. As they say "You have to be in in it to win it" and at five pounds all to ABF - The Soldiers Charity its more than worth it if I do say so myself. http://www.revolutiontrains.com/product/project-railway-honour-raffle-ticket-freightliner-cab-ride-2016/ Once the tickets finish online there will be a final chance to purchase a ticket from myself in cash at Warley where I am been hosted by Revolution trains on stand C31 where I will also have the first deco sample of PATRIOT and the model sales will go live.

Hi All, Ok well the moment has arrived: If you want a rare opportunity to ride on the foot plate of a real freight service then this is your chance if you go to: http://www.revolutiontrains.com/product/project-railway-honour-raffle-ticket-freightliner-cab-ride-2016/ You now have the chance to get your ticket(s) for a cab ride on a FL service from Crewe to Carlisle with a return on a Virgin Pendolino. The tickets are just £5 each a bargain even if I do say so myself. The online sales will end at 16:00 on Friday the 25th November tickets will be available at Warley on Saturday the 26th at the Revolution Trains stand where you can find up on stand C31. The winning ticket will be drawn at Warley on the 27th November, the winners details will be passed to Freightliner who will contact the winner to organise a suitable date and time although please be aware there is a need to be flexible as those in the know will vouch for timings can change. Terms and Conditions: You must be over 18 to enter You will be responsible for travel to and from Crewe There is only one place available for one person to travel on this service If at any stage you cause an issue to safety you will be removed for the service and neither Freightliner or Project railway Honour reimburse will you for any costs if you are removed.