The Blue Streak

Teletubbies I think, or it may have been CK's musical washing machine. At some stage someone mentioned Spam Cans or safety boots.

Aren't they all ? BTW I accidentally got a bit naughty on the New Challenge Topic, when someone got snooty because it went OT http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/131194-another-challenge/?p=3057660

Maybe the TV production team should auction the finished layouts for charity or donate them to schools for special needs kids or something. Just do something nice for the community. We should refer the question to the OP. But As one of the band of SOS regulars, I doubt if he gives a toss about thread drift.

Here you go Doc, maybe someone can come up with a double entendre for you (No Hump Shunting gags please!)

In other news, a link containing this showed up in another RMW topic. The boss of Victoria Police’s own Professional Standards Command has admitted to creating a fake online profile to make "crude, coarse and inappropriate" comments..... So which one of you blokes is it ?

The thing with big snakes, is that many have grown up to be big snakes by learning to avoid humans (mostly), baby snakes are yet to learn that and seem to get surprised more easily because they are less wary and of course go on the immediate / defence. I see many more small snakes around My block than big ones, the big ones are most certainly there but tend to be more cautious and stay hidden, which suits Me. I have also heard that adult snakes do have the ability to strike and bite without injecting venom and many people get bitten without copping a dose of nasty stuff as well. Young snakes don't have that ability or have not learned that. So if you get bitten by a young 'en, You are more likely to be in deep doo doo.

Crikey I've been outed It's true, I'm on the Committee for Police Command Professional Standards. For which I am truly sorry As for any crude, coarse and inappropriate comments, I regret nothing !!

Well if it wanted to mate with Me, it should have bought Me flowers and a drink first ! Poor form just chasing Me

Separate Well defined ranges, being the magic statement. Is there any cross over models between the ranges and if so, is it through the dumbing down of the quality products to fit into the lesser ranges (which isn't a bad thing as long as the price mirrors that) or is through tarting up a lesser model in a pretty dress and still charging a premium price even though the basic model is still a lesser quality (aka Hornby Design Clever)? A good question you've raised however.

Apparently (according to the article) Snakes are purely defensive and will not chase you or initiate an attack unless threatened. I wish someone had told that to the B*stard Dugite that chased Me across the length of a sizeable workshop when we simply crossed paths a little while back.

This was in the article - The boss of Victoria Police’s own Professional Standards Command has admitted to creating a fake online profile to make "crude, coarse and inappropriate" comments..... I would submit that there are many on RMWeb that have done the same Cheers Ted

I agree with you David, yet when you and I look at it, We are seeing them through the eyes of those with a little more knowledge than Joe Public. When you look at one through the eyes of little Johhny or Jane who just got one for Xmas, it looks pretty damn good especially when He / She compares it to the smoky joe that came in the set that arrived on their Birthday. (Despite all the doom and gloom, kids are still getting trains every Xmas) As long as the price stays well below that of the Premium Range version and Hornby don't try and glam it up and pass it off as a full fat product, then that's just fine I say. They are perfectly acceptable for what they are - entry level trains. What I think was an appalling state of affairs, is what I previously wrote about the Tornado (cant say Peppercorn A1 , because there's differences anyway) and P2 models that came out in the Design Clever era when they tried to flog them in both ranges with mainly enhanced paint jobs for the high end. They were very good for the trainset market in their basic form, yet horrible in their "enhanced" form when We placed them next to our other Main Range engines. The A1 is covered by Baccy for those who want a full fat version (although wrong for Tornado if one wants to get fussy) which doesn't help Hornby. The P2 will only ever be good enough for the Railroad range, until the day (if ever) it gets retooled to be of a Main Range standard, then it will be okay to market it as such. Which brings us back full circle. Although there's a Market for full fat premium models (with higher price) and a market for railroad quality (budget). One set of tools for both ranges (ie Hornby's "design clever") just doesn't work. Agreed the A4 has the same basic body / chassis but the railroad version's tooling and paint are simplified from the main range - not the other way around like DC was. There are still two distinctly separate sets of tools Make the Main Range as excellent as the market wants and then make the Railroad version (which I would argue is a different buying demographic) more streamlined and affordable. I believe that is the direction Hornby have started to head down now, but it won't happen overnight. They need to work through what stays and what goes. For example, now they have introduced the new Duchess, do they simplify the old version and put it in to the Railroad range or get rid of it so it doesn't pinch sales from the new one? The railroad range is already flooded with older tooling, can it sustain anymore or which ones get dropped to make room for it. I am sure with the soul searching that has gone on at Hornby as of late and with all the revamping that is going on there, all these discussions are ongoing behind closed doors. The design Clever models didn't put Hornby into the mire they found themselves in, but it did little to help them extricate them from it when they were looking for a magic bullet. I believe that a new broom is going through at Hornby and (if they survive the next few years) what We will see come through gradually will be a complete 180 from what went on there previously (there's glimpses of it already). If We are going to talk about name changes to the product line (which has probably bought it way OT). Then I would think just name the Railroad segment "Hornby Trains" or similar because that's what it's market knows - Hornby is the name for model trains when you speak to Joe Public in most of it's markets. (As is Scalextric in the 1/32 slotcar market). Go up to 100 random people on the street in the UK or Oz and ask them to name a model railway brand and a slot car brand and I bet at least 75% say those two names! The kind of person that read RMWeb or buys a more than a few premium versions would be more aware of any industry name changes so you could market the pricey versions as whatever you wanted, because that demographic would most likely be well aware of it. (You can't call it Hornby Premium or something because then Mum and dad may wonder whats wrong with the Basic Hornby). Perhaps XXXX (insert name) by Hornby (note smaller script). You'd want Mum and Dad to understand they are getting a quality product in "Hornby Trains" but XXXX by Hornby is what the serious grown up modellers and collectors) buy. But I'm sure there's people at Hornby looking into all that too. Back to the OP 's original question- Time to bring back design clever? My response is - No way would that be okay, ever !!!! Someone get an exorcist and make sure it's dead forever

......... what have the Romans ever done for Us?

She'd be considered quite the catch in Armadale* West Oz (insert dodgy suburb in the state of your choice). Still got most of her own teeth, Still single and only 11 kids and has size 9 feet so you can borrow her thongs to go to the pub (thongs being flip flops or jandals to you foreigners not those undies made out of shoelaces that the Septics called thongs) * Before anyone from Armadale get's offended, I grew up there, before it turned to sh!te (but I discovered a map on some parachute silk and escaped) so I get to slag it off as much as I like.

Well to be fair (and I was one of those who gave him a bit of a savaging) I suppose We have all pulled the pin out of a grenade occasionally and then legged it after tossing it. However it has provoked some discussion on the matter and the one thing that seems to be a common train of thought is that never again should the lines between the more cost effective models and the top end versions be blurred. It should be cheap cheerful (and robust) or top quality (where people accept a premium price to go with it) no mixing and matching . See now, I find that astounding. People will whinge about 200 quid rrp for an exquisite example of a big Pacific with all the fruit, but not even blink (well I haven't heard an outcry) at paying 40 quid for that little 0-4-0 with the 150mph scalextric motor and clunky running over any points a young'en might end up with. Surely most people would buy a good second hand Pannier tank or similar and probably a few wagons or even a pre loved railroad 4472 for similar money. Although thinking further about it, I suppose Mum or dad in the Dept. store with Junior and with no knowledge of such things would just think a train set is a train set and extra loco's are all the same

The John Oliver clip was gold, pure gold! and a classic from the two Ronnies - Loved it. Anyway something for Allan to stop his cravings, a snake wrangler and his missus rescue a very peed off Tiger Snake from a beer can. Gotta love the comment half way through - "This is a bit of an awkward Fffd up situation". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iljPVCl-yU

I couldn't be sure until you wrote it in Red, you do joke around a bit. Good luck to you. Being Ex REME should hold you in good stead. "Arte et Marte" as they say.

No worries Ian, you got there in the end so I took the duplicate away again.

Here you go Ian Edit - Ian got it sorted so picture removed again

There you go Pat, give it a crack Mate, be the token "Aussie" and just maybe get a free trip. The shop in Toodyay will be okay for a couple of weeks Tell 'em Jenny sent you.

Perhaps We need to look outside the square a little. May I suggest that the increase in prices on all these goods especially those recent releases that are entirely new tooling are as a result of the increase in Labour costs in China. The previously mentioned A3 / A4 etc etc had the moulds built a fair while ago when Labour was cheap, also they can afford to sell the older models cheaper as those moulds have already paid for themselves many times over no doubt, although some such as the A3 are now very tired and the last few models have suffered because of it. You can expect them to get a price hike once they have been newly tooled. Of course if the price hikes are as a result of the increase in Labour. Then fair enough, I can't see why the workers in China shouldn't expect better wages and conditions, they would still be a long way short of what We in UK and Oz etc would expect I might imagine. There was some talk in another thread that perhaps it's time for production to return to the UK. My thoughts are - We would be paying closer to 300 quid for top line models such as the Duchess. (You know UK minimum wages / conditions and all that malarkey). Would We prefer to see production moved to a third world sweat shop to bring prices down? Not Me I'm afraid. But to get back on topic. If Hornby have hit a home run on these and sales have been good enough to warrant a second run, then that's got to be a good thing for Hornby and ultimately Us as the hobby would be poorer if they were to go under.

So if you already have a low budget lineup and a high end line up, why would you want a third ? Exactly, thanks John!! Either You are a budget orientated person who wants a cheaper but still perfectly functioning Loco or You are a Person who has a few extra bucks kicking around and you like a bit more. The third alternative is instead of having a fleet of a dozen loco's that are budget orientated, have three or four with all the fruit. Don't try and drag the quality down to a level to try and please everyone, because in the end no one will be pleased. Crikey if Hornby reads this and starts to dumb down the range again I shall be most peed off. It's been said previously in this topic. But I think this is a case of some people wanting more than they can afford and want to toss their toys out of the pram, instead of A) settling for what they can afford B ) having less C ) waiting a bit longer until they can afford what they really want. To Me it's starting to sound like -"I want it all and and want it now and if I cant have it, I don't want anyone else to have it". I am sure (hope) over the recent past Hornby have done some soul searching and hopefully have worked out where it all went wrong and have an idea where their profits mainly lie. If Hornby do go guts up, then there will be no low cost railroad type alternative (let alone a third), Bachmann certainly don't have one in OO. So those people griping will either have to fork out for Baccy top end stuff or similar, rely on the second hand market or buy themselves some nice Tyco or lifelike toys. Rant over.

I'm making an assumption here John that you are referring to Railroad. Which is a fair call after all these are supposed to be what gets the newbies in.

While I'm on the subject of disappointing LNER design clever models. (Others far more knowledgeable than I, have already mentioned Design Clever GW efforts among others). I have already addressed the P2, which the OP claimed as a Design Clever success story and that apparently fits nicely into both ranges. But the OP also claimed that the Hornby Peppercorn A1 / Tornado was also a Design Clever success story. That model was / is an excellent model for the railroad market, but any claims that the tarted up version fitted into the main range is simply nonsense, the so called enhanced version (with enhanced pricing) again (like the P2) looks sub standard when directly compared to Hornby's Gresley pacifics from the main range (Lets not even compare in to the Superb (IMHO) Baccy Peppercorns which are not modelled on Tornado but original A1's). Again, it comes back to not cross pollinating the two ranges. I think Hornby got it right with the a3 and a4 models, make a separate but simplified set of tooling for the railroad models using the main range versions as a starting point and just leave bits off and simplify the graphics and paint. Starting with simplified (Design Clever) tooling and trying to tart it up later to sell it off as a full fat version, just didn't work, at least for Me. I can enhance a pig by putting it in a pretty dress - but it's still a pig.

I have a few railroad models that are quite old now that We bought when My kids showed a glimmer of interest, one of them is 4472 that was one of the earliest loco drive models that came when the new tooling started to be used (but with the old tender minus the ringfield motor). It does have pickups to all driving wheels and all those on the tender, along with it's 5 pole motor it runs superbly. The latest railroad versions of the A1/A3, don't have tender pickups (or a 5 pole for that matter) at all which means they might just stutter a bit on trainset type points a slow speeds. But if My kids were anything like the norm, then slow speeds just didn't get a look in, because it raced around at Mach 1 everywhere so it's probably a mute point. Like I said it's running abilities are faultless and it's lack of fine detail was perfect for kids and a bit of rough handling. Aesthetically however it's not in the same ball park as the Main range versions and I'm not even sure why I haven't sold it on. Probably because one day it may be a source of spares for one of the others (motor and chassis are common) but partly because because I think I might have a bit of an emotional attachment to it But there's no way I would have bought one for Myself, when the main versions are so sweet on the eye ! It's also the reason I'm not a fan of the design clever models, the P2 is probably a prime example for Me, looks ok when on it's own but just doesn't compare well when sat next to Main Range A4's and A3's. Even the more expensive versions of the P2 with the extra lining and added detail just look cheap in comparison (especially the tender) it was a bit of a let down for Me especially when I was so looking forward to it and I have since moved it on. I think that the LMS guys have been waiting a long time for a newly tooled Duchess / Coronation (which is the catalyst for this topic I think) and if they had been dished up a watered down Design Clever version, it would have been a slap in the face for them. The new model is superb* and you get what you pay for. There's plenty of the older versions around much cheaper if that's your thing. * I'm even tempted to get one Myself, just because it's so nice, even though it goes with nothing I have and I might have to sacrifice a future ER purchase to get one