LMS2968

More than slightly OT, but Joe Brown was more than a minor early rock 'n' roll star and was well known and respected within the business, and with recording success to his name. What's more, he's still touring!

I think it was '150 Years of Mail by Rail'.

There is a difference between exaggeration and selection. I was once a guard and wrote my memoirs for the SMF magazine. "Booked on, prepared the train, worked to St Helens via Prescott, brought another train back via Widnes, Booked off", or "Worked the empty parcels vans to Red Bank, put the engine on Newton Heath depot, came home on the cushions" don't make for compulsive reading. Instead I used the few occasions when things went wrong, although this does rather give an incorrect impression instead of how things actually normally ran without incident.

See the end of steam thread. I wrote: It happened, but on the electrified North Eastern Railway. The driver of the e.m.u. tied down the dead man's handle with handkerchiefs then clambered along the footboarding for a look. There was no fireman. He was knocked from his perch and the train ran through a signal at danger at a junction into the side of a passing train. It's somewhere in one of my books but can't find it at the moment. * Found it! 'Trains in Trouble Vol 3 by KenHoole, Atlantic 1982 ISBN 0 906899 05 2. It happened at Manors in 1926, so LNER rather than NER.

It happened, but on the electrified North Eastern Railway. The driver of the e.m.u. tied down the dead man's handle with handkerchiefs then clambered along the footboarding for a look. There was no fireman. He was knocked from his perch and the train ran through a signal at danger at a junction into the side of a passing train. It's somewhere in one of my books but can't find it at the moment. * Found it! 'Trains in Trouble Vol 3 by KenHoole, Atlantic 1982 ISBN 0 906899 05 2. It happened at Manors in 1926, so LNER rather than NER.

The leading - non-powered - axle of Class 40s had inside bearings so couldn't be used in this location. Nor did they have any provision for a speedo drive.

Likewise at Crewe works when the Pacifics arrived: the trailing truck had to be weighed separately.

Back in the day it was done on weighing tables, where each wheel sat on an individual plate and the weights recorded. They were found at works but very few sheds; the L&YR had two weigh tables, one at Horwich and the other at Newton Heath shed. Elsewhere, if a fitter changed a spring he just reused the old settings. They were supposed to change springs in pairs but this rarely happened. Actually altering the setting usually meant that the weight had to be taken off that wheel using a jack. The adjustment method varied, often there was a screw thread on the nuts on the hangers by which the weight was transferred; theoretically these could be wound up or down. After a while in traffic, fretting corrosion generally made the nuts immoveable. An alternative often used was different thicknesses of spacer plate inserted into the weight path.

Yes, Johnster, I think we've all been in the position of realising we're in Terra Incognita. Do you come to a halt and stop the job or keep going and pray? I had to do it only once and took the latter option - very carefully watching the signals and gradient posts!

Although a driver might well sign the road, say Euston to Carlisle, it would be running lines only and might exclude even goods lines. And if you think of haw many sidings, goods loops, etc. there were in those 299 miles, and how often a Camden man might have to use the loops at Carnforth, you can understand why.

Something to consider, though, is that these terms were not easily dismissed and would linger on in bits of infrastructure as well as in common language. One of the maps to the report on the Chapel-en-le-Frith collision of 1957 specifically points out the "Stop Board for Bank Engine".

I don't think any 9Fs had a speedo in BR days.

Yes, but the system wasn't quite the same. That described by The Johnster was introduced by the LMS in 1934 whereby there was a major 'A' shed or 'Concentration depot' responsible for admin and the more serious repairs; and 'Garage' sheds with a suffix letter above A and which carried out only minimal repairs. On the Midland - and early LMS - each shed was a self-contained unit so was given a numerical code only. LNWR and L&YR sheds were also coded numerically, in LMS days the LNWR sheds were coded as before but L&YR sheds gained a 'C' suffix for Central Division, although also known as Western Division B.

The propensity to prime would be influenced by the point along the boiler / firebox where the steam was collected. This was usually from a dome more or less central or only slightly offset towards the smokebox, so the change of level at the ends would be less marked at that point. Many early engines had a dome immediately behind the smokebox or collection was from the top of a raised firebox, which might make a difference but they were generally pretty high with a large gap down the the water. GWR and domeless LMS boilers used an upwards-pointing funnel arrangement with admission holes along the top face; this was immediately ahead of the firebox and high up in the barrel so possibly subject to priming if working uphill chimney first. I can't say I recall any actual complaints though.

You certainly can, Dave. By the way, I had planned to write a book on the L&MR, which is why I have the material. I occasionally got Glezebrook and Glazebury mixed up too!

Definitely, with what was the Chat Moss Hotel just visible, right. When the line opened, The L&MR directors attempted to get the manager to agree to this being the passenger waiting room. He refused and they had to erect a wooden structure for the purpose. The pub sign was for many years a portrait of George Stephenson, but it disappeared when it was renamed The Glazebury. I wonder what happened to it? Note the replacement bridge.

There is a relationship between the two scenarios: going uphill tender first or downhill chimney first. The same gradient will have exactly the same effect on the water level over the firebox. The fact that the engine might* not be working downhill is irrelevant with a big fire aboard happily scorching the crown sheet above. In any case, the engine might have to be worked downhill: one reason is too many wagon brakes pinned down as already described, but even in ordinary running the driver will try to keep the couplings taut on the downhill section to avoid a snatch when he reaches the next uphill one and has to open up.

Which is basically what I was trying to say yesterday at 11.15!

The Lickey certainly had its own rules for gradient working not found anywhere else, such as three or four bank engines coming on the back separately, never coupled together, all carrying a head and tail lamp, and all dropping off independently at the summit. I'd be surprised if they pinned the brakes down with the train stationary though: if enough were pinned down to hold a constant speed on a 1:37.7 gradient, it's going to be a lot of fun getting them rolling again on a fairly level stretch at the top.

Sounds like someone was a bit too keen pinning down the wagon brakes. The ideal situation is that the engine draws the train forward slowly and the shunter pins down each wagon brake as it passes him, and the driver can feel the retardation and call a halt when he assess that enough brakes are down. This should allow the train, with the brake van screwed down, to roll at a constant speed down the gradient, possibly with the tender handbrake also screwed down and the engine steam brake in reserve. It wasn't and easy judgement and they didn't always get it right.

There are many instances of engines being worked up gradients which might be considered the wrong way around. The climb out of Bolton towards Darwin and Blackburn was a bank engine section, and this was usually a Lanky 'A' class with a very low tender. It therefore banked trains uphill tender first, the train ahead providing some protection from the weather. The return to Bolton was therefore chimney first with weather protection provided by the spectacle plate. Chimney first was desirable, but other factors sometime overrode this.

There's a big difference between preserved main line steam and the real world. Back in the day, that's what you had to do.

Not necessarily. If you are in charge of a poor steaming engine struggling with a heavy train against a gradient, and you're watching the pressure gauge dropping back, and the level in the gauge glass is falling, what do you do? If you put the feed on, you are putting (comparatively) cold water into the boiler, and its immediate effect is the cause the pressure to drop further. So you use the feed sparingly, allowing the water level to fall in order to maintain enough steam pressure to get you to the summit. This process is known as 'mortgaging the boiler', and once over the top the driver can ease up and the pressure can rise. And there's the danger. As the summit is passed and the engine starts downhill, the water, already not too high in the glass, disappears down to the smokebox end. What's more, when the driver had the regulator open, the flow through the valve lifted the water level; if he now closes it this means a further fall in the level. The Horwich Crabs had a bad reputation for that. So the fireman, who had managed to keep half a glass during the climb watches the water disappear below the bottom nut as they go over the top. It isn't as easy as just saying, 'Keep enough water in the glass.'

A dropped plug isn't an instantaneous reaction to a water surge, but they can be cumulative. A driver might allow to be uncovered for only a few seconds to have it fail, as it has already been uncovered many time in the past. This is why plugs are consumables and regularly replaced, not just when one gives up the ghost.

Your wish, etc . . .