ruggedpeak

This phenomenon is well documented, and there is considerable discussion and scientific work around the impact of traumatic events and recollection. This is exemplified over the current debate about to whether police officers should confer over notes after a firearms incident. Considerable learning in this field occured after a fatal and mistaken plice shooting some years ago. I do not propose to discuss that issue, but it is scientific fact that our brains do not manage to collect, retain and recall all the information about situations, and this becomes more problematic if the incident was traumatic. Upon recall the brain automatically and unconciously fills in gaps of recollection with what it decides (based on all sorts of things) is best. We have no idea which bits of information are real and which are not. That is why people can swear blind that they recall something correctly and then be proved to be entirely wrong - your brain filters information and convinces you it is right even though it is not.

Train service disruption Thursday 17 November - An Apology We are very sorry for the severe disruption affecting all services on the Great Eastern Main Line last night. The problem was caused by a train fault on the 17:50 London to Norwich service. The nature and location of the incident meant the service recovery process was particularly long and complicated, despite the efforts of our team, in partnership with Network Rail, to minimise its impact. We will be holding a review into the incident with the aims of both preventing a repetition of the train fault which was the underlying cause of the disruption and improving contingency arrangements in the event of a similar incident occurring again. https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/travel-information/service-disruptions/train-service-disruption-thursday-17-november-apology Trains breaking down happens, but it should not take out the entire mainline for hours. Ooops. In happier news, on Friday the RHTT with DRS 57303 and 57007 ran on the Up Fast mid-morning with stops at Witham and Shenfield and probably elsewhere to allow trains to pass. A RHTT with topped and tailed by GBRF 66's was running on the Down Slow through Ilford. NR seem to run one of their MPV's early evening between Clapham Junction Shepherds Bush or thereabouts as it passes northbound and returns shortly thereafter southbound washing the rails.

My employer has a long list of questions that are put to anyone involved in a road collision about working patterns, when did your last shift end, when did you last sleep and eat etc. If you were not in a fit state to drive then the responsibility passes to the driver, although may be shared by supervisors if for example they knew the driver finished very late was back on shift a few hours later. Exit to remove duplication.

Because they are closed systems, whereas trams are on public roads and as we have seen already autonomous driving systems are less than 100% effective. Humans aren't exactly 100% effective either but are currently the better option in an open, uncontrolled environment.

Seen that as well, and reinforces in my view of the potential for some systemic as well as individual causes contributing to the incident.

And people who drive boats and planes operate in knots and seem to cope.

I think the issue is the fact that excess speed through that curve may not have been a one off event. The "lifting" comment is a direct quote from a passenger who experienced the situation. Whether the wheels lifted or not, if passengers felt that then something is wrong and it should not have occured in normal operation.

This months issue of Model Rail has an article on transforming 37's and one of the examples is a Europhoenix version. Haven't had a chance to look at the article yet but there's a pic on the cover (image from George Dent's blog) http://georgedentmodelmaker.blogspot.co.uk/

There are clear reports and complaints of another tram being driven by another driver (confirmed by Tramlink) going around the same bend with excessive speed and "lifting on one side" on at least one occasion in recent weeks (see one of my earlier posts http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116642-croydon-tram-accident/page-13&do=findComment&comment=2500863 ). How relevant this will be to the investigation conclusions we shall see, but it certainly appears pertinent and at first glance suggests the excess speed on the bend might not necessarily be a one-off or freak incident.

Even if there was a 20kph board, the tram was still doing 43mph. So it doesn't matter if the driver thought the limit was 12.5 or 20 mph or kph, the tram reportedly went into the curve at 43mph or 69kph. However confused a driver might have been between 12 or 20 miles or km an hour, the tram was far beyond any permutation of misunderstood limits. I also understand that the scene was very traumatic and emergency services personnel have been affected by it, as well as the pasengers. Thanks to all involved.

Apologies for lack of paragraphs etc, website and phone don't get on!

I'd just like to thank Freightliner for wrecking my day Delays on London Overground due to broken down train and now nothing on the GEML due to another train fail - I hope it's not also Freightliner or there will a ritual sacrifice of my Bachmann FL 70 (if I ever get home!). GA report "Due to a broken down train between Harold Wood and Brentwood some lines towards Shenfield, Southend Victoria and Chelmsford are blocked. Train services running through these stations may be cancelled, delayed by up to 90 minutes or revised. Disruption is expected until 22:00 17/11. The 17:50 London Liverpool Street to Norwich has broken down near Brentwood on the line mainly used by Greater Anglia trains for Southend Victoria and the Colchester line. Another Locomotive will be coming from Shenfield to assist the faulty train towards Norwich. This operation is expected to be completed by about 19:45. Following trains commencing with the 17:52 Liverpool Street to Clacton are disrupted and cannot divert around the defective train due to the junction crossover at Shenfield being out of use. Customers at London Liverpool Street are asked to postpone journeys until 20:30." So Thunderbird deployed but still a mess presumably due to Crossrail related track works. Marvellous. Formatted after reaching home just after 2130, via TfL Rail and car. 2.25 hours late. Lucky that this evening I wasn't going to be preparing for a job interview tomorrow or anything. Ho hum.

That is exactly the point. A lorry losing its load means that the load was insecure and the LGV driver is legally required to ensure his load is secure. If it comes off then the load was not secure, it is not an "accident" but in principle a failure by the driver or another. And the load has collided with the road in a manner that was not intended i.e. the load and road should not have made any direct contact during the journey. Whether it is a collision is semantics, but it is not an 'accident'. In relation to the Tram incident, currently safety thinking across various sectors is that things are generally not "accidents" but incidents that are mostly avoidable. Again, a common thread of many safety investigations is that disaster often (but not always) comprises a series of small infringements or failures that recur, and on that one occasion these combine to go from an inconvenience or near miss to disaster. And often had only one of those infringements been tackled earlier the disaster would have been avoided. This is why RIAB etc carry out such detailed investigations. Whether or not the driver is the primary cause, they will want to understand if there were processes etc that could have overcome this to prevent what occured. My guess is whatever the actual causes of this terrible tragedy, there will be significant recommendations regarding tram operations as on the face of it trams seem to fall into a bit of a gap between road and heavy rail practices, and this location seems to be unusual relative to most of the tram network.

It is not clear yet why the tram came to be travelling at nearly 4x the limit for the curve, but we do now know from media reports that this was not the first time a tram has gone round that bend at speeds that were apparently excessive. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37979121 Indeed as many safety investigations conclude, there are often warnings of problems before the actual disaster strikes. That is why the HSE and others are so keen on near miss reporting.

The Police used to refer to crashes as Road Traffic Accidents, RTA's, but now refer to them as Road Traffic Collisions, to reflect the fact that over 90% of road crashes, deaths and injuries are the direct result of human error and poor driving (rather than mechanical failure), usually involving one or more Traffic offences and the fact that when things go wrong they generally involve a road vehicle colliding with something such as another road vehicle, object, pedestrian etc. They are are definitely collisions but rarely if ever are they accidental. Someone was almost inevitably doing something they shouldn't have. That does not mean it was pre-meditated, but it was a decision by a human to do something that was not a good idea. so not a random "accident". The phrase accident gives the very incorrect impression the collision was unavoidable. And the vast majority are entirely avoidable. I'm afraid the use of the word accident avoids blame for things that should have blame attributed to them. Except that in many cases extensive measures other than speed limits are put in place to inform drivers of the corner, especially when there have been previous injury crashes - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116642-croydon-tram-accident/page-10&do=findComment&comment=2497081

Something that might, I stress might, have been useful here if the driver was for some reason distracted sufficiently to not be aware of his position and needing a reminder of the impending turn. A similar situation on a public road could see bend hazard signs, chevrons on the bend, reflective markers on the roadside, hazard or solid lines on the approach, possibly rumble strips and SLOW painted on the road. I'd also expect a slippery surface sign given there is a transition from a dry tunnel to a wet/leafy/icy surface (in a depression overlooked by mature trees on several sides) in the braking zone and in the bend. Roads are used by the public and thus skill levels etc are highly variable compared to trained tram/train drivers, but I'm a little surprised the photos I've seen I can't see anything visual in the bend to remind drivers of the sharp turn because a late forgetful glance might see only the tunnel opposite and an assumption of straight on (i.e. the potential for basic human error which is the cause of most road traffic collisions). I assume on heavy rail such a situation would be signal controlled and have some form of speed limit sign well before the turn? I appreciate public roads and tram only tracks are very different propositions, but that location seems to have lots of elements to catch out the unwary and might be in my view a collision hotspot if it were a public road. The difference would be that road users have the ability to go straight on if they were going too fast - either hitting other vehicles as they did so, escaping unscathed down the other lane or still trying to make the turn and hitting the verge on the other side. I guess trams/trains only have one option, enter the curve at whatever speed. The Sun, Mail and Metro are reporting that the driver may have been texting http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/13/croydon-tram-driver-may-have-been-texting-in-crash-that-killed-seven-6254681/ Earlier it was alleged he had blacked out, so we are still in speculation mode.

You are absolutely correct. Brain fade on my part.

BTP state a man was arrested on suspicion of manslaughter. He has been released on bail until May. http://media.btp.police.uk/r/13403/updated_statement_on_tram_derailment_-_croydon http://media.btp.police.uk/r/13405/updated_statement_on_tram_derailment_-_croydon Clearly manslaughter is one of the most serious criminal offences, so I'll not comment/speculate any further on this aspect of the tragedy.

It will be interesting to understand more about the nature of tram design. I am assuming they have some degree of road relating impact protection as collisions between trams and other road vehicles are quite common, mainly due to other road users ignoring the tram related signage. BTP and the Met quite often do tram crossing operations targetting drivers who ignore the crossing lights. In the past it was a lottery for the drivers caught, as BTP offered driver awareness courses instead of the points. The Met didn't at the time. So it depended upon whether they were stopped by a BTP or Met officer as to whether you got points - a few people weren't happy to watch someone else get a course when they got points. Of course if they hadn't run the lights it wouldn't matter. Emergency services drivers have to stop and turn off their warning equipment at tram crossings exactly as if they are level crossings (i.e. can't be used as give way like a traffic light). Trainee drivers are deliberately taken through Croydon to experience the roads with trams on. Running a tram crossing is a major fail. As an aside, injuries on buses are reported by the Police on London. It is quite common for the police to be called to a passenger who has been injured as a result of the bus driver making an emergency stop. These are reported as injury collisions. I'm not sure if this is purely a TfL thing or UK wide.

Few observations. I travelled to school by coach in the late 80's and used to chat to the drivers. I recall discussing Plaxtons coach bodies as we were in one. The driver advised that certain coach chassis (made by the likes of Volvo etc) that Plaxtons put their bodies on were shorter than others. I forget which, but some only had solid chassis frames between the axles, meaning the front and rear of the coach was just bodywork. This led to cracks and the fact that the driver had no crash protection as he was sitting in a bit of bodywork unsupported by a chassis frame. The body was just sheet metal and glass on the chassis, with only the chassis providing structural strength. Hopefully coach design has improved since then but I don't think road coaches are designed to withstand overturning to any great degree. The RSSB has done a lot of work around railway coach safety and seatbelts, windows etc. http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/study-says-no-to-seat-belts-on-trains.html This states no seatbelts but laminated glass as heavy rail accidents have shown that people survive if they are thrown about in the cabin as long as they don't get thrown out the windows, and seatbelts aren't suited to the nature of rail incidents as against vehicular ones, causing more injuries. How this may relate to trams/light rail I can't say. This work was informed by a significant number of heavy rail incidents.

As someone with some knowledge of investigating serious road collisions and the legal processes, there have been various bits of nonsense and some accurate comments on the situation. Arresting a suspect in England falls under the Police & Criminal Evidence Act (PACE) in many but not all cases. There is a large amount of guidance and procedure called "Codes" that go with them https://www.gov.uk/guidance/police-and-criminal-evidence-act-1984-pace-codes-of-practice Code G covers arrest. Worth reading the early part of this document to understand why a driver would be arrested at the scene of a multiple fatality. Whilst the Police are investigating in respect of offences, where there are or may become fatalities (i.e. seriously injured persons who may die later as a result of injuries from the incident) the Police investigation will also inform any Coroner's Inquest. Government policy is that any road collision involving serious (life changing or life threatening) injuries or fatalities is treated as a crime and properly investigated. By definition this will involve the use of Police powers under PACE, Road Traffic Act etc. Officers have the power of arrest where there is suspicion of an offence. This is a key role of initial investigators at the scene, to establish an initial view of the causes of the incident and act accordingly. If for example the scene showed signs of the track being tampered with (e.g. rails removed) then clearly they will take a different approach to a scene where the train and track appear fully functional. If there are persons at the scene involved who the Police reasonably suspect may have committed offences relating to or causing the fatal incident, then they are likely to arrest on suspicision of relevant offences. At the point of arrest this gives investigators powers to investigate in more depth and get access to information that otherwise might not be available as well as basic identification verification (fingerprints, DNA possibly). Some evidence can only be collected at the scene, after which it is too late. With mutliple fatalities it is clear the families and public will want a thorough investigation and any offences dealt with, and the Police will want to ensure they maximise the opportunities to collect evidence. Whilst there is often a simple explanation for what happened, equally investigations turn up other evidence that shows it was not as clear cut as it first appeared. Just because the driver has not been arrested does not mean they will be charged with anything. Someone stated charge has to follow arrest. This is entirely wrong. My personal view of this tragic incident is that it will be a complex investigation and the outcome will not be straightforward. My thoughts are with the families of those who died and the driver who, whatever the facts of this incident, is going to have a very tough time.

66548 I'm pretty certain is the Shenfield Thunderbird, or has been for a couple of weeks now. Presumably FL get fined [a lot] if one of their box liners breaks down on the GEML - quite a few run south during the evening peak, and one failing would cause chaos and incur significant Delay Repay costs.

As an aside, the Shark is not the only abandoned wagon on the line. The 'Romford MHA' has been abandoned on the headshunt outside what is now the Romford TOC for many years, full of spent ballast and becoming something of a rockery feature. In the last couple of weeks it has been moved into one of the sidings outside the yard/depot south of the station and TOC. First time it has moved in 5+ years I believe. A couple of months back I noticed TMC had a heavily weathered Hornby MHA left, so I bought it. When I have a some time I will add some vegetation to make a nice little cameo based on reality. Also have a Hornby Shark to abuse at some point as well, although I suspect a Cambrian model kit might be easier.

The first batch of FTG wagons had this problem but this was resolved on the second Network Rail batch. One assumes this later tooling was used for the Kernow batches!

I'm all for picking faults but complaining the wheels go round is a bit harsh, surely?