ruggedpeak

Possibly. But it means Hornby/Hattons have to pack, unpack, stack and pick the models in number order, which is a lot of work with 2 sets of 1000 models. That's a lot of extra labour over normal handling.

Don't worry chaps, there's still more than 10 of each in stock at Hattons. Great photo, they look fab. I don't think I could open the box if I got one either. Straight into the cupboard to be hoarded!

Firstly Hornby are not giving out enough information for us to understand where the core problems are, however UK sales make up 79% of Hornby group revenues (2015 Annual Report)(up from 71% in 2014), and 40% of all sales is model trains, plus 23% Scalextric (2014 Report). Thus Hornby trains is the biggest component of the business. This means that subject to seeing more detailed numbers, UK trains is the core of the business in terms of revenue, and for things to be going dramatically wrong either the UK trains bit is failing (as the other areas of the business are not big enough to drive the sort of losses we are now looking at) or (or as well as) the fundamental functions of the business are failing across the board e.g. logistics, merchandising, brand management etc. The business cannot survive if the UK model train part is not working well. The other bits may drive growth but Hornby absolutely has to master its overall UK sales of all lines and UK model train sales to survive. And as we know from botched branding, website, ERP system and the undermining of relationships with trade and retail customers and media, that this is not happening despite sorting the production issues. Electrotren, Joueff or Airfix are not generating multi-million pound losses. The management has botched its UK operations, arguably undermining its brand value and sales, and has been too busy doing fancy and unncessary outsourcing and ERP. Global sales are 21% and presumably costly to operate, and the management sees them as a "growth" area, not profit centres now (which it needs). They seemed to assume that if they sorted model production they could ignore UK sales and marketing and treat customers like idiots and stuff would still sell. Mr Southworth was involved in the Olympic mess that nearly wrecked the company (he fronted the announcement of the deal) and is now Head of Sales & Brands. The strategies put in place have been too generic and it is clear they don't understand or care for this specialist market despite it underpinning the entire business. They've made it easy for the new entrants. Someone needs to go.

That is what Ames was supposed to do, and the problems at Hornby would seem to be a mixture of things Ames has put in place like brand and relationship destroying sales and marketing, failure to carry out the basic tasks in key areas like the website competently, and outsourced logistics that is not delivering, potentially at horrendous and unnecessary cost. He does seem to have resovled the product development and production issues however. This situation requires the Board to get a grip ugrently, identify the causes of the specific issues and tackle them. Sales and marketing, and relationships with both trade and retail customers and the media have failed and are a direct cause of the problems. Any member of staff who has disdain for their customers should be sacked without hesitation, they will be infecting the company. Ideally they'd do the decent thing and resign, but if people are going around belittling customers they are a cancer that needs to be removed. Tesco had the same problem in tis view of both customers and suppliers, and look at the mess it is in with the SFO as well as dodgy accounting. There is no time for umming and ahhing, but it doesn't need a hatchet cost cutter, it needs a competent CEO and team who can support the bits that work and replace that don't. Not necessarily more slashing.

Dave, its not a big problem these days. In fact they will build houses on pretty much anything, from former munitions factories (Enfield, north London) to alleged secret nuclear reactor sites in Berkshire. An old building with asbestos would not have much impact on the land value unless it is very low.

The value for a retail park is nowhere near what it is for housing. If Hornby's finances were relying on selling the site for housing and then there may well be hole in the sums. Hopefully they used the existing use value in their projections pending consent. As for B&Q, they are only still in the town after managing to downsize their store. http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/Margate-B-Q-saved-closure/story-28406722-detail/story.html The current local plan states: http://thanet.devplan.org.uk/ POLICY EC12 - RETENTION OF EMPLOYMENT SITESTHE FOLLOWING SITES, AS IDENTIFIED ON THE PROPOSALS MAP, WILL BE RETAINED FOR EMPLOYMENT USES FALLING WITHIN USE CLASSES B1 AND B8 IN LOCATIONS CLOSE TO RESIDENTIAL AREAS, WITH ADDITIONAL B2 USE AWAY FROM RESIDENTIAL AREAS: ALL SITES SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFIED UNDER POLICY EC1; AND EXISTING BUSINESS SITES AND PREMISES IDENTIFIED ON THE PROPOSALS MAP AND SET OUT IN THE TABLE BELOW:............................ WESTWOOD INDUSTRIAL ESTATE MARGATE

Bizarre coincidence or has someone been reading the forum? When I checked just now this section has been re-arranged with the stuff in stock now on the 1st page, followed by Pre-Orders then the OOS/Sold Out.

You missed it! I got one from Argos. IIRC it was reduced pre-Xmas to either £29.99 or £39.99, so it was rude not to. Fun wagons for shunting puzzle, extra track and controller for knockabout small layouts and small chassis for kits all at a bargain price. Still available from Hornby at £69.99 though! The 2015 version is being sold off. The 2016 version is the same but without the TrakMat and only a circle of track rather than an oval, costing £20 left. Sub £50 it is almost an impluse buy, unlike when at £69.99 for the old version. Makes sense as I don't think it is bought as a proper "train set" but as a fun Xmas decoration. Rivet counters may scoff but it is the sort of thing that keeps the cash coming in if done well.

Let's get down to brass tacks. Let's look at their website. Select the "Diesel & Electric Locomotives" section in their shop. http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/locomotives/diesel-electric-locomotives.html Whatever system I use to look at it, it comes up with the "Recommended" listing order of models over 5 pages. The first 6 locos listed are mostly discounted long established poor sellers. Not what you put first. The rest of the page is entirely items out of stock. You then have to go half way down page 2 to find anything that is actually available to buy now. Most of that page is out of stock or pre-order. In fact there are only 3 out of 24 locos on page 2 are for sale. Page 3 has only 2 out of 24 models actually available for sale. Page 3 has 13 out of 24 items for sale. You cannot screen out pre-orders, out of stock or sold out from the listings. You have to bother to get to pages 4 and 5 to actually see a reasonable quantity of stuff you can actually buy. The vast majority of potential customers will only want to see what they can buy now. Wading through pages of stuff you can't get to buy will drive them to look elsewhere, probably a non-modelling purchase. For a company that is pushing direct web sales this is appalling. It is liltte wonder they are making a loss when they have made as difficult as possible to actually buy stuff. Anyone browsing for a modern loco will lose interest at the lack of available options probably before the end of page 1, and thus exclude the gifting market for those browsing for a present for husband/brother etc. This is beyond amateurish. There is no point wasting time on Facebook and Twitter if your website is so bad cutomers will lose interest before making a purchase. This is web retail 101, sub-GCSE Business Studies stuff. I know what Lord sugar would say Addendum: I forgot to mention the farce of trying to buy something on both the Airfix and Hornby websites at the same time using my Hornby login earlier i the week. Gave up after about 10 forced re-logins. Found the Airfix item on Ebay, gave up on the Hornby one.

EDIT: Share trading being halted. Basically only where there is something dodgy going on. Being crap at running a company is not grounds to suspend trading. A typical example is wild fluctuations in share price over a day, which suggests the price is being manipulated, or where some major fraud is exposed and the market for the share collapses entirely (no liquidity) so it is not possible for meaningful trades to take place. Collapsing share price due to incompetence is not grounds for suspension. As below, if a company becomes insolvent (has run out of cash to pay the bills) the directors have to stop trading (i.e. doing business) as soon as they are aware of this. This is not the same as halting share trading.

That is the problem, it is not significant enough for Barclays to worry about if they are in trouble. £9m is arounding error, Barclays will shortly being paying $70m in fines for their deep pool activities, they were fined £290m over LIBOR in 2012, and put aside £1bn on PPI payouts. Barclays will barely notice £9m. I'm afraid that not only is £9m diddly squat, but sufficiently diddly squat that a computer may decide that the assets are only a bit less than this to recommend it be shut down and sold off, so they just take say a £2m loss rather than dragging it out. Or it may decide on other more positive options. It pulls the funding and the company can be insolvent overnight. They did it to the company my other half worked for despite it being profitable and close to paying off its debts. Pulled the finance without explanation or reason - made no business sense but they did it anyway. We have no idea how serious this funding issue is, and hopefully it is quickly resolved, but the only thing worrying Barclays about Hornby is the PR fallout if they closed the business.

Yes, I think all our comments need to be tempered by the fact this is probably not nice for them. Ultimately we all want Hornby to survive, but there seems to be an urgent need to get rid of those who have consistently blundered. Hopefully the Board will be smart enough to get on with this and supporting the staff to deliver the Pecketts, the 71, the Caley 67 and all the great things for 2016. Alleged trendy social media offices in Shoreditch etc probably need getting rid of too IMHO - I don't believe tweets and Faceys or whatever you get on Facebook actually sell models.

I think that is an excellent summary. I took my profit on the shares last year, missed the peak where it was over £1, but it was clear Xmas was going to be poor and the price would slide. I never expected it to go down this much however. On the loan, given the relatively small (to the bank) size of it, they have many options including simply shutting down the business and flogging off what it can. Don't assume they will spend any effort trying to keep it going if it will be time consuming or costly. I'd also point out that my impression is that in OO models (and they won't separate out the figures so we can't analyse in more detail) the retail trade is awash with non-moving stock. The fact that I could go online right now and spend thousands of pounds (may be tens of) on massively discounted OO locos, wagons and coaches indicates to me there is a major overstock problem. Not just Hornby, others still have huge amounts of non-moving stock in the trade, based on looking at retailers websites. At the end of last year I got my Xmas present of an Arriva 67, all the Arriva Mk3's and the DVT for half RRP, by taking advantage of Hornby bundles and retailers discounts. Brilliant for me but no way to run a business. All are quality products, but also having been burnt by their web exclusive limited editions, there is no reason for me to pay full price or even close to full price for anything unless it is truly exceptional. Have also bought 2 Hornby 31's (NR & DCR) since Xmas as both at large discounts (that it would have been rude not to buy). Why would I pay £130 or more for a model that if I sit tight for a few months I can probably pick up for under £100, possibly well under? The only thing I have or will pay full price for this year is likely to the LTS Class 66's, and the Dapol 68 if it comes out. Other than that I'll snap up bargains as they appear. I hope the retailers I am buying from are still making money, but you can't sustain a manufacturing business in a market awash with discounted stock.

That's over £2000 then

I'm a little surprised that the likes of General Motors and GE Powerhaul have not done the same with their loco's but perhaps railway modellers are seen in a different light? Anyway, I think the Drax model is great and am more than a little envious of those who get to buy a full trainload. I've decided that since I can get 8 discounted Hornby MGR's for the same price as one Drax wagon I'll made make a MGR to sit behind my first version Hornby 58001!

I agree! It is a very complex area of law but I think the bottom line is that if Drax (with a £2.8bn turnover) don't want more models made, they are not going to get made! A solution is probably a kit. I'd guess Drax may be more amenable to a kit since it does not challenge their limited edition Hornby wagons, and allows modellers to recreate their trains. Anyone run a kit company? These kits would sell and I'd buy a load.

Ben, I'm not sure that is right. Someone making a model for profit would (subject to seeing the nature of Drax's IP) need permission. As an example, to represent a car or aircraft in a video game requires permission, if the representation is of a real car or plane. If Drax have registered the design then you need permission even for a model, and unless I'm mistaken even a scale model would fall under 'design right', which protect the shape and configuration of the item. The fact that it is 1/76th of the size does not stop it being the same shape and configuration as the full size one, thus automatically protected for at least 10 years. This is different from copyright. I think it likely that anyone producing Drax models without consent will be at real risk of a cease and desist letter, both in terms of the wagon and the logo. Failure to act may put Drax's IP at risk. No court action is required, just a stern letter, unless the infringer continues, and I reckon Drax are better able to afford court than many modelling companies. Regards

As per the earlier posts and video, Drax own all the IP and designs for these wagons so no one will be commissioning models of them except for Drax. Enough of us have been stung by over-priced Limited Editions being sold off at discount prices to sit this one out. If someone really wants one and is happy with the price then I'd suggest buying them as this will probably be a once only opportunity. Much as I think it is a great model I can't justify £83 for one, but if they were sub £50 I might be tempted. If they sell out and are not done again it is no great shakes for me. What would be an issue is to pay £83 and then find them available at some later date significantly cheaper

The pictures of the final boxed versions are the same as it says "Limited Edition 0193 of 1000" on the front of the box in both pics! Fingers crossed!

Having seen the Drax images of the numbered boxes they are quite nice..............

There is clearly an opportunity for Oxford to do Mk3's well, but realistically I doubt they are going to produce the huge range of variants that exist, or if they do it would be over a very long time due to practical constraints. A full and accurate set of coaches to sit behind Dapol's 68 would be a great starting point. I have various Hornby 67's and DVT sets (WSMR, ATW etc) and really like these loco hauled sets. 68 versions I'd buy full sets. Also early Scotrail liveried pushpull MK3's please.

I'd definitely buy a Club only Sentinel

I went with the digital version to get the voucher for £15, and have benefited considerably from the 10% as well. The lack of D&E is a shame, but I'd prefer lower cost models to spend it on. Doing one modern loco at over £100 is no good if it's not something I'm after I bought the WD Jinty as it's different. If Whitechapel is still in stock at renewal time i'll renew and get one of those as I like small steam locos. As I don't plan major spend on their website this year, if there are no Club locos of interest I probably won't renew otherwise.

At rear of 8 car unit (IIRC) at Stratford going towards LS