Compound2632

16 hours ago, Mikkel said:

LNWR 20 ton wagon 20?89. 

Found it! Tucked away in P. Ellis, LNWR Wagons Supplement No. 1 (L&NWRS, 2011) and not the main three volumes. No. 20289 was a 20 ton platform trolley to D74, built in May 1870 at a cost of £86/8/11* - one of ten that Earlestown built in odd moments between 1869 and 1882. It was replaced in 1908 by a 40 ton trolley to D97. It was a 6-wheeler, 24 ft over headstocks, 9 ft + 9 ft wheelbase. No known photo. 

*£10,500 in modern money.

Maybe the Cambrian worked differently but usually the rule was no promotion without relocation.

5 hours ago, Mikkel said:

sometimes intriguingly hard to decipher. 

That looks like a cyclostyled standard letter with the details filled in, but what has a LNWR 20 ton wagon at Stockport got to do with the Great Western? A 20 ton wagon was rather unusual in 1899; I've had a quick look through the three volumes of LNWR Wagons but haven't yet found it. Being a special of some sort the number should identify it.

Looking good! I'm sure you're familiar with @Penrhos1920's website - endless variety; if what you've built isn't a good match for something there then you can argue it's a type that was extinct by the time the diagram book was compiled or failing that, the diagram is wrong!

For better quality (prototypical ride-height for starters) 6-wheel underframes you might like to look a the Chivers Finelines LMS fish van recently reintroduced by Five79, perhaps married with the Brassmasters Cleminson kit. I see that, realising the utility of the underframe, Five79 list it as coming soon as a separate item, so you don't need to populate your layout with grounded out-of-period fish van bodies. In fact, if you're going for cast axlebox-spring units then the Brassmasters unit with scratchbuilt solebars and headstocks may well be simpler than trying to make a silk purse out of the sow's ear of the Hornby underframe.

5 minutes ago, Northroader said:

No elephants in Farthing, but there was this tyger....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Twynnoy

"In 2003, on the 300th anniversary of the death, a ceremony was carried out at the grave when every schoolgirl in the town, younger than 11 and named Hannah, ...".

Chose your own preferred commemorative action.

I'm off to reread Judith Kerr's The Tiger who came to Tea to recover from that.

47 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

The question is, when did they get to Farthing?  They certainly never got to Traeth Mawr, at least not in 1895.

The Midland was particularly popular with touring theatrical companies since it served most of the principal English towns and cities. One could go out via Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds, and Bradford, then via running powers over the L&Y to Manchester, on to Liverpool, back via Derby to Birmingham then down to Bristol. 

34 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

I am not sure where I got this, probably from Castle Aching, and I think it is an LNWR van.

Barnum & Bailey's European Tour circus train stock was built by Renshaw of Stoke-on-Trent, to designs modified from their American circus trains. Details here.

This is not, despite appearances, a Midland Railway vehicle.

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Chipperfield Circus, perhaps? The subject of elephants brings us close to another situation that I'd like to model at some point. Not now, must resist!

By chance I came across further information on this, as I've been looking through Hooper's book on North British wagons for livery and numbering info. He reproduces a diagram from The Locomotive Magazine of an elephant car converted from an NBR 30 ton trolley - again a bogie well wagon. This shows a wooden structure filling the length and width of the well, with 8'6" high sides but just steel arches overhead at 4 ft intervals - perhaps covered with wagon sheets? This was done "in connection with the Savage South Africa Show, an exotic menagerie touring Britain in 1901". Presumably the Midland conversion was also for this - perhaps the design was common to both, since the length of the trolley well was the same.

The show caused considerable unease at the time (and even more in retrospect) as the exhibits included not only six African elephants, various lions, etc. but also a considerable number of Zulus (seen here at Southampton docks) and Boers, staging re-enactments as well as scenes of native life - as seen here (both films on BFI Free so UK only, I'm afraid). This "menagerie" arrived in Britain in 1899 and was initially exhibited at Earls Court. 

39 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Hopefully a heated debate about fish traffic, rather than a debate about the traffic of heated fish?

There was a question on another forum about steam heat for fish vans - fortunately it turned out that the Westinghouse pipe had been mistaken for a steam heating pipe, the vans in question being dual fitted for Scottish fish traffic.

The Midland had tanks like those Great Central ones, with special passenger-rated trucks for them to sit on, as the Great Central also had. The only other phot I've seen is of one of each company's trucks at Grimsby. Note the lifting hooks. I suppose the ones piled up are empty - they'd be pretty heavy when full of water and fish.

Re. it being fortunate that they were guinea pigs not elephants, I note Midland Railway Carriage & Wagon drawings 1498 and 1499 of June 1901: "30 Ton Trolley fitted to Carry Elephants" and "Details for 30 Ton Trolley fitted to Carry Elephants"; unfortunately neither drawing has survived. At this date, the Midland's only 30 ton trolleys were four built in 1897 (replacing probably the same number built in 1875) which we might think of as bogie well wagons. Presumably the modifications included some sort of cage or house as well as a timber floor. 

Barnum & Bailey were touring continental Europe from April to November 1901, wintering in Paris, so it seems unlikely this work was for their elephants. 

Works both ways. The first house we bought, there were four 1970s-style chairs in the front garden - the square wood framed sort that one used to find in the lobbies of public buildings, so hideous there's not even a photo on Google Images. They went straight to the dump. Next time I went to the dump, the dump staff had them in their office.

Brilliant, as ever. 

On the question of disposal of undeliverable goods, E.L. Ahrons has a tale relating to a station on the Midland's Leeds & Bradford line. A local family had gone on a yachting holiday, shutting up their house. A few days after their departure, a goose (dead) arrived at the station for them, a present from a friend. After a decent interval,  'a carefully-worded communication was despatched to Derby, giving a most harrowing description of the parcel - a bird hopelessly in the throes of incipient decomposition - with an urgent enquiry for immediate instructions as to its disposal. A wire was duly received in reply, which contained, so report said, permission to bury the bird, and Mr. Stationmaster "buried" it. I am unable to indicate definitely the exact site of its interment, but ... it was concluded by the inhabitants of the surrounding district that the bird had found a resting-place "somewhere in stationmaster".'

As an aside, I notice that your method of carriage painting gives the impression of the brown line on the cream panels - in fact the angle between panel and beading.

The 6-wheelers from both are 32 ft over body; the Hattons 4-whhelers are 28 ft. My knowledge of Caledonian carriages is a bit hazy but in Drummond's time didn't they have three-layer panelling like the North British, then later what I would call "conventional" panelling (Midland / Great Western-style, per Hattons). Were any 4 or 6-wheelers built in that later style?

Not that I'm suggesting you would want to go down the "generic" route now!

I'm sure you are right to give this passenger livery, though the difference compared to the goods stock (but passenger-rated) van next to it is largely in the varnish. I wonder how different they would look once the meat van had been in traffic for a while and the shine worn off? (Given that such vehicles didn't get the carriage cleaners' attention?)

The Midland had similar 4-wheel passenger-style meat vans dating from the late 1870s/early 80s; some were turned out in full passenger livery but the majority in goods grey, although still equipped for running in passenger trains.

Bye-the-bye, has anyone asked you yet if those are the Hornby carriages? 

Looks good, not having seen a photo of the real thing! I take it the "natural" clay is a good representation of the colour of the polypropylene?

Were they loaded on end as you have done? I would have thought that would lead to settling towards the bottom end of the bag but maybe the wool isn't dense enough for that to be a problem?

Good to be reminded of this blog entry. Some of these commercial items can be pricey; it may be just me but that Dart Castings sack looks as if it's solid 24 carat gold.

37 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Did the provender store at Didcot have road access?

 

Yes: https://maps.nls.uk/view/104196163.

Impressive. Full of atmosphere, even without scratch'n'sniff!

The 2-4-0 is correctly identified a little further down then passed over in silence at its third appearance.

I've noted a copy of the Wild Swan book at the sort of price I'm willing to pay to satisfy my curiosity. Does it have any more than we've already discussed on the pre-GWR period? (I'd cut out and give away any pages with photos of taper-boilered locomotives.)

Any colour you like, so long as it's brown.

Continuing to drift gently off-topic, I note that the Wikipedia article on the LVR, evidently quoting the Wild Swan monograph, states that the carriages were purchased from the Lincoln Wagon & Engine Company, though further down the were bought from Brown,  Marshall & Co. I believe that the Lincoln Co. was primarily a rolling stock finance and leasing firm (vide Turton's Fifteenth) so what I think may be going on here is that the Lincoln Co. were acting as broker for Col. Archer Houblon; this suggests to me that the Lincoln Co. also procured the wagons for him - or at least the six ex-GER wagons; he might have dealt directly with Met for the later dozen. The carriages do look to have been specially constructed for the line.

Coming back on-topic, I'm having difficulty convincing myself that the four wagons with sheeted loads of hay are all Great Western vehicles - the second and fourth look to have wooden solebars.

24 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

The LVR had 18 wagons. My mention of these yesterday was based on the very pleasing Lambourn Valley Railway website,  but there seem to be a few typos when compared with the appendices in Robertson & Simmonds. According to the latter, 12 of the wagons were purchased from the Metropolitan Carriage & Wagon Co. in Feb. 1898 at a cost of £189, while another 6 came from the GER (not GWR) purchased for £91 10s, all including delivery and painting. The quaint LVR locos and coaches were sold in 1904 before the GWR took over, but on the wagons Robertson and Simmonds have only this to say:

 

"No information regarding the disposal of the goods stock formerly owned by the LVR has been discovered."

 

 Oooh, intriguing!

Second-hand, as the website says. Very second-hand, judging by the photo of the Met C&W Co. ones (4th photo down) - though they do appear to be all of the same type so they may have been sold off from Met's hire fleet rather than simply being old wagons for which the company was acting as broker. This photo (9th photo down) gives the best view of the ex-GER wagons, two of them, from which it's clear they are this antique type, dating back to the 1860s in design, if not necessarily construction. Plus of course there's the inevitable Midland wagon - not a D299 but a 3-plank dropside, D305, of 1880s vintage (Drg. 213). Rather more surprisingly, what I first assumed was a SER or LCDR covered goods wagon (Kentish van or van of Kent) is in fact lettered H&BR!

I suspect it's very like the old hand-tinted postcards, especially in accuracy of colour!

Were LVR wagons allowed out? Off the LVR I mean?