hexagon789

12 hours ago, bécasse said:

While I don't know what the situation was on the Eastern Region, the Southern Region certainly imposed general speed limits - 85 m.p.h. for steam trains and 75 m.p.h. for electric trains with a lower limit of 60 m.p.h. for both within a defined London suburban area. These limits were printed in every Southern Region Working Time Table.

 

I would have expected every Region to have similar (but not necessarily identical) limits to facilitate signal planning - and especially the placement of distant signals to allow adequate braking distance.

Postwar my understanding is the following applied 

WR - 80/85*, then unrestricted from 1955, 90 ceiling from 1960. 100 from 1967. (*Certain trains where authorised)

NER/ER - 90; 100 from 1964

LMR - 90; 100 from 1964

SR - 85; 90 from 1967

ScR - 75; 90 from 1970 WCML/1971 E&G

8 hours ago, 18B said:

Hi, I've seen conflicting articles in magazines stating either that it was June 194 or June 1965n that "the first length of high-speed line, a 17 miles (27 km) stretch between Peterborough and Grantham" was passed for 100mph,  anyone happen to know which year it actually was please? TIA 

Lolham to Stoke Summit, from early 1964, certainly applied by April when mentioned in print.

5 hours ago, keefer said:

I think this one came up before - if it was Aberdeen-Edinburgh it would be a 1Gxx headcode and more likely be on the 'North' lines (on the right)

1Sxx means it has originated down South somewhere and come to Edinburgh via Carstairs.

I think it turned out 1S39 was a Manchester train.

According to the ScR PTM for 1973, 1S39 was the summer only FSO 1120 Manchester - Edinburgh.

Here we are, scroll down page slightly for some more pictures of "Heart Line" branded HSTs and some pics of the promotional NE-SW 125 service launch timetable: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk%2Flatest-input--news--old-pictures-etc%2Fitems-added-on-17th-november-2017-those-added-most-recently-come-first&psig=AOvVaw3c3_jzYjD-eoFM-nmggH68&ust=1701019988021000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBQQjhxqFwoTCLicl7PX34IDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI

I'm sure I've seen a publicity brochure of the period with such branding, it was on Flickr so with some digging I should hopefully find it again.

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Does this require a rethink about using weekends for maintenance and temporary closures ?

 

I’m reading and hearing that Monday and Friday are now the quietest days of the week, for passenger numbers !

 

 

.

Network Rail trialled two mid-week possessions on the ECML earlier this year at the behest of the TOCs, mainly LNER, as the weekends are now typically busier than midweek especially Saturdays; the trial was deemed useful and it is likely further midweek possessions will occur, though weekends are not entirely finished yet..

20 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

142/3/4/153/313/4/5/7/20/21/22/65/442/455/6 have all been binned.

TfW still has 153s in single and multiple use, ScotRail has 5 units used in multiple with 156s on West Highland workings.

SWR still has 455s, typically on Chessington and similar inner suburban workings.

ScotRail still has all its 320s, plus 12 which were converted from 321s.

There is also 321 in parcels use with Varamis Rail operating as Swift Express.

7 hours ago, Waverley47708 said:

 

Thanks for responding, I should have been clearer, my question is whether or not the blue grey livery mk2c had ScotRail or Intercity lettering.

 

 

I think that depending on period, prototype photos are needed to be representative of an appropriate mixture; though by the later years "ScotRail" branding seemed fairly consistently applied compared to even the mid-80s (1985/6).

But to illustrate my point, a photo of the 1333 Glasgow Queen Street - Inverness, taken in April 1990, has a set formed:

2A TSO

2A TSO

2A TSO

2D TSOT (presumably 6603)

2C BSO

All vehicles carry "ScotRail" branding except the BSO which carries none at all.

3 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

Interesting. I guess it's like anything, published once then repeated all over! 

 

Jo

Quite. Many examples of that as well, in practically any aspect of trains and railways.

Certain publications (and authors) are or were worse for it than others. I remember a certain author who used to include the line 'caption corrects welcome' within the inside cover in all their books, but reputedly ignored any attempts, however polite at providing corrections.

Consequently reprints or other works with the same photos would carry the same errors, I remember even finding some of those errors on Wikipedia with some of their books as the quoted source!

You just can't win sometimes.

At least with the 158/159, a quick Google for a cab view will readily show the identical 3-step brake controllers.

I think the only use of Westcode 4-step was by London Underground, but that was simply done by blanking out 3 positions on the 7-step variety.

1 hour ago, Steadfast said:

159s have a 4 step brake handle, the 158s have 3 step brakes.

Both have standard Westcode 3-step brakes:

Step 1

Step 2

Full Service 

Emergency 

I've seen this 'four step' thing in one or two places, but it is incorrect.

1 hour ago, Cruachan said:

and the first batch of 158s for Scotrail were fitted with First class from new.

Though the ScotRail units originally had 15 seats arranged 2+2 over 2 window bays; 159s have 24 seats arranged 2+1 over 5 window bays.

The 159s were deliberately fitted with better quality First Class seating at NSE's behest.

53 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Trains were usually 6-car made up of two units coupled corridor end to corridor end.

Only very early on, they were soon reformed to have the two trailers in the middle with the intermediate power cars next, cabs outward and then the leading power cars outermost with gangway coupled to intermediate power car cab end.

When used off-route, they did tend to revert to divisible 3+3, such as when used on certain Shotts line workings in the 1960s.

The Ayrshire sets were commonly used as 3-car units off-peak, strengthned to 6 at peak and sometimes 9 on holidays or busy periods. I think it was always considered that they would need to be able to multi at either cab end due to the more complex usage.

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The HSTs were only intended as a stop gap pending delivery of production APTs 🤩. 

So perhaps class 42 had already been earmarked for the APT power cars when they eventually materialised?

Or maybe there was no systematic planning going on at all.

The APT-Ps were pure MUs though, with their power cars un-useable in any other way than within an APT set; I don't think BR would ever have reclassified them in the way the HSTs were.

The 'M' vehicles were numbered in the 49xxx series anyway.

(The power car data panels carried '370' as the class and 'M' as the vehicle code.)

59 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

However it was even more incongruous when there was a Paddington - Edinburgh XC train - which was sent away on its first departure from Paddington by a piper playing stirring tunes on the bagpipes.

Introduced 1983 as I recall, and went to both Edinburgh AND Glasgow - i.e. two portions. Again an 'efficiency' merger - combining a Paddington - Oxford - Birmingham with a Birmingham - Edinburgh & Glasgow.

It didn't last especially long, possibly just a year but an Edinburgh / Paddington did return in the 1990s, lasting until the major alterations of 2003 made in the wake of the Operation Princess timetable collapse IIRC.

12 hours ago, 18B said:

Hi, 

 

Just why was there a The 1E54 06:50 Paddington to Hull service in 1985 (and presumably other years?) that ran via Sheffield, it just seems such an incongruous service.  

It was introduced in the May 1984 timetable, and was one of the several major changes that year particularly to Cross-Country services.

As well as many new innovations and improvements, there was also a significant consideration to making economies.

This saw a reworking of much of the NE-SW HST service, reversion of certain high-demand Paddington - West Country workings to high-capacity LHCS. Cut in midday Paddington HST services. Euston - Liverpool reduced to 90 min frequency off-peak (Manchester followed in 1985). King's Cross to Newcastle semi-fast HSTs cut back to Doncaster etc etc.

As part of these economies, which also involved a great deal of study into what journeys passengers actually made and where there was greater demand - it was deemed that the North East & North Humberside were not adequately served, hence most Newcastle-bound NE-SW HSTs were routed via and called at Doncaster now. Additionally the WELest Midlakds - North Humberside XC workings were integrated into the Paddington -Oxford - West Midlands services. This enabled more efficient working of stock and as a by-product provided direct through services.

Concurrently there was a move to switch more of the Birmingham - Oxford - Paddington services away from Paddington to destinations on the South cost, such as Poole and Brighton with Oxford being developed as an interchange station between shuttles to Paddington (including newly introduced off-peak HST workings) and trains to/from the West Midlands and further afield.

One of the primary reasons behind these changes was the desire to develop the Gatwick Airport service, a lucrative source of income. 1984 was of course when the improved dedicated Airport Express service commenced, with air-conditioned push-pull sets and a 0530-2300, including Sundays, 15-min frequency.

There were many other changes in 1984, which was possibly the year with the most changes countrywide of any timetable in the 1980s. 

Some tinkering occurred throughout the rest of the 1980s, but the next significant timetable change affecting things across the country wasn't until the May 1989 which finally saw many of the economies of the 1984 timetable reversed with a more favourable economic climate.

26 minutes ago, ISW said:

Sounds promising ... do tell more.

 

Ian

'More' meaning the other mods, or 'more' meaning the publications, sorry?

1 hour ago, keefer said:

It is strange that it's a bogie mod that most people haven't heard of, or indeed seems to have been documented anywhere.

My first thought was to check traintesting.com but that only had the others we've discussed above.

I have heard of it and other mods carried out at the same time. It was definitely in print in publications of the period, but I'm sure it has appeared in more recent publications as well.

1 hour ago, keefer said:

The T4 was preferred and was better riding up to 125mph, but there was too much coach movement at 140mph.

From a thread on cl.91/Mk4:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/141261-ecml-electrification-class-91-fleet-march-2019-service-of-30-years/?do=findComment&comment=3432739

"[On the ECML there was] limited capability of the overhead to accommodate vehicle movement. The maximum permissible kinematic vehicle movement on the ECML was apparently less than that for a T4 at 140 mph. The SIG bogies had less dynamic movement at 140mph than the T4; to do this they needed to be stiffer. The upshot was that when running at 125mph the ride was worse than a T4 and even worse than a BT10 in areas where track geometry was 'challenging'. I was told that by turning the bogies round 180 degrees and modifying the dampers etc they got the ride to something closer to the T4 but limited the stock to 125 mph."

The irony being, the trains were only ever 125mph in service, hence the T4 could have been used and probably a lot of the Mk4 riding/damping issues would've been avoided! (Ain't hindsight wonderful?)

Of course, what really did for 140mph was the lack of suitable signalling.

The Mk4s were and are still passed for 140mph, even with the bogie mods.

9 hours ago, ISW said:

Many thanks to @keefer and @25kV for their replies. Following the @keefer link I noticed the lower photo of a T4 bogie. Closer examination seems to imply this is the one on my original photo (?). 

 

A bit of a Google search for the T4 bogie came up with "IIRC the 158s were built with the T4 bogie - a lighter weight development based on the BT10 and the suburban bogie first used in the Class 313s.". Now if that' true it's one hell of a good suburban bogie if it can operate at 125mph in service.

 

Ian

The T4 is a 140-mph bogie ;)

At least, the base design was intended for a minimum 140mph running originally.

And 158/159s remain among the smoothest riding modern trains.

4 hours ago, DaveF said:

A few photos fairly close to home at Alnmouth in Northumberland from 1980 and 1981.  Alnmouth was the junction for Alnwick, if the plans of the Aln Valley Railway eventually come to fruition it will once again be a junction for heritage trains to Alnwick Lionheart station.

 

 

Alnmouth viaduct Class 254 down Aug 80 C5153  This is just to the north of the station.

 

 

Alnmouth Class 254 up Aug 81 C5491

 

 

Alnmouth Class 254 down Aug 81 C5492

 

 

Alnmouth Class 40 down ICI tanks Aug 81 C5493

 

 

Alnmouth Class 47 up Edinburgh to Newcastle Aug 81 C5494

 

David

The HST in C5492 is quite interesting, no TGS vehicle yet (I thought all existing sets had had them inserted during the 1980), and also nine trailers, not eight.

21 minutes ago, pH said:

You should not assume that, by quoting that pronunciation, I was approving of it! 😐

 

”Law” does not end with an ‘r’; “Order” does end with an ‘r’!

It's just a pronunciation, it is neither wrong nor new...

1 hour ago, pH said:

I thought it was “Lawr and Ordah”.

I thought certain members of the press gave her the moniker 'Laura Norder' or am I misremembering that?

2 hours ago, Ohmisterporter said:

Talking about modern mispronunciations that I find annoying include saw being pronounced with an r instead of w, for no good reason as far as I know. If you see me cutting a piece of wood please do not say, "I sore you soring".  

41 minutes ago, TinTracks said:

 Agreed. Another mispronunciation that annoys me and Mrs TinTracks is drawing pronounced as drawring. Every time that McCloud bloke off Grand Designs or Paul off Flog It refer to ''drawrings'' I have to restrain her from throwing her metal specs case at the telly. Mind you up here in the frozen north we do tend to miss off the g from the end. ''drawin''

Sorry for possible OT Regards. Rich

24 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

I always get pirates and pilates mixed-up...

It's nothing new. Intrusive R, as it is called, was first noted in English in the 1700s.

It is a common feature of many accents of  both rhotic and non-rhotic, even Received Pronunciation, despite traditionally being stigmatised.

Maggie Thatcher, for one, used to speak of 'Laura Norder' (Law and Order).

7 hours ago, ianathompson said:

 

I often wonder how many forum readers actually access the website!

I also do so at least every time you post in the thread here. To me it is a most useful indication that the website has been updated.

I also go through your website on other occasions as well ;)

9 minutes ago, Waverley West said:

And one final shot for now...

 

 

In other news, the Strathclyde 156 is virtually finished. I just need to paint the snowploughs yellow and weather them now.

 

Work has now turned to another Large Logo 37/4, probably to be done as 37404 Ben Cruachan after renumbering from 37430, which I picked up "cheap". 

 

37260 Radio Highland is also on the workbench looking far too clean.

 

These are both new Bachmann toolings, so it will be interesting to see how they compare to Accurascale's offerings.

 

 

Fantastic pictures as always, Dunedin must be getting a bit tired now though - all those trips to the Fair City! ;)