hexagon789

13 minutes ago, Jesse said:

I have ordered the book this afternoon 😀

I hope you enjoy it then :)

8 minutes ago, Jesse said:

Thanks for all suggestions and sharing your memories, much appreciated!
 

What I find interesting about the pre-modernized system is that all stations seemed to have their own character. Some had quite nicely designed entrance buildings (St. Enoch, West Street, Copland Road) while others were more basic, part of a building facade or altogether hidden in an alleyway. There appeared to be three main types of stations: The ones with a shed-type glass roof  (Bridge Street, Cessnock, Copland Road, Partick Cross), the completely covered tube-like, deeper, stations (St. Enoch, Hillhead, Kelvinbridge, Buchanan Street), and then there were stations that seemed to have a number of rectangular shafts that let daylight in (West Street, Kinning Park, Merkland Street). I wonder how those stations looked at the surface, did they have a series of smaller glass roofs?

 

It think it should be interesting to build a square shaped box with slots that show the different kind of stations, with trains running around in a loop, perhaps with different types of entrance buildings at the top. (as per the prototype some amidst recently torn-down tenement buildings)

 

By the way, I can recommend this film: https://movingimage.nls.uk/film/0421

 

If you are interested in some photos of the stations, as well as a detailed background and service history of the system pre- and post-modernisation, 'Circles Under the Clyde' is an excellent book.

9 hours ago, flubrush said:

According to my father,  who knew the Subway in its rope worked days,  it was the smell of the preservative treatment for the rope,  which was probably liberally plastered around the track.  The smell of it hung around for many years.  I used the Subway regularly in the 60s and 70s and the smell was still very distinctive.   I dare say a blind person would never have any problems locating an underground station. :-)   I've been away from Glasgow since the modernised version appeared so I don't know if the smell has survived the modernisation.

 

Jim.

There was no rope to preserve ;)

Two steel cables, hence 'cable hauled subway'. I don't think a rope would've stood up well to the harsh 'gripper' treatment, no matter how it was coated.

It is just a myth that the smell stems from any form of preservative used on the Subway, the nearby Low Level tunnels if the Argyle and North Clyde lines smell exactly the same in the below surface stations.

A sort of damp, fusty, slightly sulphury smell and yes - you still get the smell on the Subway a little bit, but I think the Low Level (particularly Glasgow Central and Argyle Street stations) has it more strongly.

1 hour ago, MJI said:

Do they go well with a lack of trailers, my main experience are 7 on with Valentas.

Yes definitely; the 2+4s for example will reach 100mph within about 150 secs from a stand and can even climb Slochd at a steady 60mph on one power car... ;)

2 hours ago, MJI said:

What are the Scotrail ones like to travel in?

Quite comfortable. They have Grammer seats (same as Inverness 158s) in Std and the ex-GWR leather ones in First.

Spacing is better than GWR Std was though, reduced from 84 seats to 74.

The main gripe I would say is fewer toilets, lack of space in the underframe means a tank can only be accommodated at one end - so vehicles have only one toilet max now.

(4-car sets have three, 5-cars have four.)

Also, note that by no means all services have catering.

ScotRail is still struggling to recruit hospitality staff, so there is a published list on their website each week of services with catering.

Final note: substitutions by 170s (and occasionally 158s) do still occur. On average about 13 of the booked 15 weekday diagrams are HST, the balance 170s.

Substitutions are more common at weekends, bank holidays and when there is significant service disruption.

1 hour ago, DaveF said:

A little while by the railway at Abbots Ripton watching the trains go by.

 

 

Abbots Ripton Class 47 down ex pass May 75 J4288

 

 

Abbots Ripton Class 46 Kings X to Newcsatle July 75 C2194

 

 

Abbots Ripton 31155 up engine and brake van July 75 C2197

 

 

Abbots Ripton 31178 and Classs 47 up ex pass July 77 C3385

 

 

Abbots Ripton Class 55 down ex pass July 77  C3390

 

David

Nice selection, I particularly like the 47 in J4288.

According to the Carriage Workings (and the formation in the photo matches the booked one perfectly), 1L29 was the 1610 King's Cross - York.

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

When did macassar oil fall out of common use as a hair conditioner?

Around the 1900s.

Virgin Trains ran the last Manchester Pullmans. By then, while branded with window labels, there wasn't much to set them apart from normal Mk3 West Coast services, other than slightly more limited calling patterns and slightly quicker schedules.

IIRC Virgin dropped the name at the May 1998 timetable change. 

GNER continued its 'Scottish Pullmans' until the mid-2000s. 

5 hours ago, montyburns56 said:

 

I must admit that I never knew that they were still using MK1 Restaurant cars in the Pullmans even at that late stage. Imagine paying a Pullman premium for the joy of a 1960s catering experience!

They are RKBs though - no seats in them! They have a kitchen almost the entire interior of the vehicle, a serving hatch one end and a buffet counter the other. The serving hatch end would usually be coupled against a dining car (often a normal air-con First Open, particularly by this stage), the buffet counter end towards 2nd/Std Class for their catering needs 

First Class Pullman travellers would've been seated in mostly the newest coaches on BR, the 1985 build Mk3B FOs - often regarded as the best First Class vehicles built.

1 hour ago, keefer said:

I thought Pullman passengers were served meals at-seat so making the meals in a standard Mk1 coach doesn't really matter. 

Asides from the fact that an RKB has no seats anyway! ;)

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Added to which, some very decent meals came out of Mk1 kitchens, probably still do on preserved railways and ‘specials’, and the cars rode quite decently on their later bogies.

 

IIRC, some of the cars still had loose chairs, which was a good thing, because they made sitting at table more comfortable than fixed ones.

 

The menus weren’t bad either. I used to travel standard, but then eat on the train as a treat, because that got you a first class seat, and at lunchtime you might be one of only two customers, so good portions too!  They made all their income from business travellers first thing in the morning and in the evening; lunch service had fallen out of popularity by the 70s, most people were happy with a sandwich, even the legendary BR ones. I don’t recall full lunch prices, but they weren’t so high that they were outside the range of a young, trainee or newly qualified engineer as I was at the time.

 

Rather a proper lunch in a Mk1 than the sort of thing available on most trains now.

Again though, the mid-80s Manchester Pullman sets had an RKB (though substitutions were of course not unknown) which has no seats.

Any First Class passengers would've been sat primarily in the 'Pullman'-branded Mk3B FOs.

43 minutes ago, Steven B said:

Two catering cars may still happen - do the likes of class 220 and 800s carry two catering trollies when two units are multipled together?

I don't think XC does double trolleys, not sure about GWR.

Avanti does normally staff both shops on double Super Voyagers and LNER both Café-Bars on 10-car Azuma formations.

The Manchester Pullman in Mk3 days had two catering vehicles even into push-pull days. In earlier years it was a Mk1 RKB and a Mk3 RFB, later two RFM.

The IC125s had some two catering vehicle sets into the 1990s with the Tyne-Tees and Yorkshire Pullman sets having a TRFB and TRFK.

The IC225s had some Pullman sets with two SV until around the mid-90s.

2 hours ago, keefer said:

So if the HSTs are so 'dangerous' to warrant immediate withdrawal surely that must also apply to any other trains running in Scotland?

As others have said, any  train would've come off as badly if not much, much worse than an HST set.

So we need to just shut down ScotRail until these magical trains being demanded are designed and built?.....

'Legacy traction', they are defining it as anything constructed pre-1995.

In Scotland that therefore includes:

156

158

HST

318

320

Class 73 on the sleepers

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Which might work until you've got two places with the same name or similar letter positions in. their name.  Wwhat one person takes a code or abbreviation to mean could mean something completely different to another person

I agree, I frequently make use of CRS codes and while not aware of all of them - BNS being Barnes not Birmingham New Street is effectively drummed in.

So when I saw BNS, I immediately thought of Barnes not Birmingham New Street.

Even if BNS may seem a logical acronym/abbreviation to some, it won't to everyone and as you rightly say - some abbreviations can be ambiguous.

For Birmingham New Street, unless in a context where I knew it would be understood CRS codes were being used, I would abbreviate to no less than 'Birmingham N.S.'; I consider that reasonably unambiguous.

1 hour ago, aictosphotos said:

Wikipedia states that First Scotrail had two sub fleets of Class 170s with Standard Class only and 1st/Standard Class. 

 

The 1st/Standard Class fleet consisted of:

 

170393 to 170396

170401 to 170434

170450 to 170457

 

The Standard Class only fleet consisted of:

 

170458 to 170461

170470 to 170478

 

My question is simple, what services saw each type? 

 

I guess the Glasgow/Edinburgh services to Aberdeen/Inverness as well as the Glasgow to Edinburgh via Falkirk High services saw the 1st Class/Standard Class 170 fleet? 

 

What services would have been majority operated by the Standard Class only fleet? 

 

I know both fleets were allocated to Haymarket TMD but other than that, I'm not too sure. 

 

Did the Standard Class 170s ventured onto workings with 1st Class eg Glasgow Queen Street to Aberdeen and like wise did the 170s with 1st Class venture onto Standard Class only workings whatever they might be? 

 

Any assistance to clarify this would be appreciated. 

 

 

In theory:

170401-424 'Express pool' 1st batch (First Class both ends)

170425-434 'Express Pool' 2nd batch (First Class both ends), any ScotRail Express route

170470-478 'SPT units' Std only - mostly SPT sponsored local services Glasgow Queen Street to Stirling/Dunblane/Cumbernauld/Falkirk

170450-461 'Suburban pool' (all Std only until 450-457 were converted to converted to Express pool, ~2012). Mainly to replace 150s on Fife local services, plus Edinburgh to Newcraighall, Bathgate and Dunblane.

170393-396 'ex-Hull Trains', buffet & 1st Class one end. The 1st Class took up a whole driving car, but only the section behind the driver's cab was used as First class by ScotRail, the remainder declassified and later removed. Obtained 2005 after HT switched to Class 222s. Diagrammed initially on Edinburgh/Glasgow-Inverness services but could appear elsewhere. The units were converted to Std only in 2012 and transferred to the 'Suburban pool'; 450-457 were converted to 'Express pool at the same time'. The buffet counters saw little use despite initial intentions and were finally removed in 2017. These units can be distinguished internally by the presence of an extra toilet compartment in the centre car.

Note that as ever, in practice any 170 might turn up. Suburban units did appear in Inverness and Aberdeen standing in for unavailable Express units. That was more common after ScotRail gave up its 150s and some 158s, when more diagrams became 170.

So yes, any unit could turn up on any service. That still happens. I've seen 170401 waiting to leave Queen Street on an Anniesland local, while in the adjacent platform 170470 waited to run to Aberdeen. ScotRail do usually post online when First Class is unavailable on a service advertised to convey it.

I do have the 170 diagrams for 2009 somewhere if interested?

1 hour ago, SP Steve said:

 

The Aberdeen portion actually started its journey at Elgin as 1A08 05:52 Elgin - Carstairs which changed code from Aberdeen, becoming 1C83 and then joining with 1V90 10:47 Glasgow Central - Penzance at Carstairs (It was also given the "Cornish Scot" named train title).

 

One sizable group using such long distance services at this time were military personnel, especially RAF and Navy. Many families remained in situ after spouses were posted to other camps or personnel were simply going to / returning from tours (especially at sea) so a steady flow of long distance travelers emerged.

 

 

 

I mentioned the Elgin extension upthread, and while I knew it was 1980s, I missed that it applied in 1984!

RAF and Navy personnel was the other main category I had in mind, after Rig Workers.

1 hour ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

 

In the pre-HST era, I think the Aberdeens went only as far as Bristol or Plymouth, but when HSTs were cascaded onto cross country, it became practicable to offer a through Aberdeen-Penzance service, which as I recall went via the East Coast.

There was a through Aberdeen to Penzance (joining with a Glasgow portion at Carstairs) in the 1984 timetable. The previous year there was a Dundee to Penzance HST, which was withdrawn in the major shake-up of HST services in 1984.

Going further back, an Aberdeen-Penzance through coach had existed since the 1920s.

2 hours ago, Matt37268 said:

Wasn’t there 2 guys who lived in Cornwall and worked on the rigs off Aberdeen who used to use it quite regularly? 

Rig workers was certainly one 'type' of commuter I was thinking of.

46 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Would be interesting to know if anyone's ever done the Aberdeen-Penzance from end to end ...... apart from diehard enthusiasts, of course !

Yes, definitely have been 'normals' who have done the full service 

42 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Longest trip at present is Aberdeen to Penzance I think? That's been running on and off for years IIRC? Not sure if always, but it's a XC 5 Set today?

P

It was truncated to Plymouth during COVID. It has literally just resumed full running to Penzance with the timetable change on Sunday there.

It can be either, but is more frequently a 5-car 221 it seems. Possibly it is booked 5-car, with 4-car 220s substituting if necessary.

Certainly there is no timing difference between the types.

1 minute ago, Mallard60022 said:

Has anyone mentioned the Paddington service from Newquay (not obscure, but small!)

P

It still has two a day I believe.

In th 80s, there was a Summer Friday overnight from Newcastle, returning on Saturday. More recently, CrossCountry had a Dundee-Newquay service on Summer Saturdays, usually an HST as well.

25 minutes ago, D6150 said:

However you look at it, it's a very long day. 5 or 6 crew changes I think? There can't be many passengers who do the whole trip...

 

Ken 

It has various markets, though if various media reports on the service through the years are believed - the odd regulars did the whole journey, albeit infrequently (maybe monthly).

The full service has:

9 drivers 

7 train managers

41 minutes ago, D6150 said:

Here's 221129 at Dundee this morning.

 

The Aberdeen to Plymouth service has now been extended to Penzance again, and I think some of the intermediate stops in Fife have been restored (the service was non-stop from Dundee to Haymarket until recently). 

 

Quite a busy service this morning, with a good crowd waiting to board in Dundee. 

 

Thanks 

 

Ken 

 

 

Looks like all the Fife calls are back in, but slightly strangely Dunbar is removed after Edinburgh?

Something amusing struck me about your photo though. You must've taken it at about 0930 when 1V60 makes its Dundee call, some 11hours ago. 1V60 is however still going even now, it has another 60 mins to Penzance.

4 minutes ago, Davexoc said:

A feast of 1 blue plus 1 green class 20s today, which happened well after TOPS numbering came in.

Looking at those DSB IC3 sets, and wondering if there are any other units out there where there is a doorless vehicle?

I can see the logic for extra seating on point to point services, but intermediate stops could lead to extended station dwell times....

And they must qualify for the least aerodynamic and ugliest awards.

Actually, as surprising as it sounds, the masive rubber seals on the front do have an aerodynamic property to them. I forget exactly how it works, but the ring shape does displace the air the train moves through in a fashion.

I agree absolutely on visual aesthetics though!

Not bad units though as such, they can certainly shift some... like an Express Sprinter on a double dose of steroids...

1 hour ago, DaveF said:

Finally today some photos at Toton in 1964 and 1975.  Although steam had gone and locos were being painted blue not much else seems to have changed in the world of freight in the area.

 

 

Toton LMS 4F 44376 light engine on up hump June 64 J153

 

 

Toton up reception sidings Class 08 June 64  J137

 

 

Toton 2x Class 20s up freight Oct 75  C2509

 

 

Toton 20040 & ano down ballast Oct 75 C2511

 

 

Toton 20150 & ano up coal Oct 75 C2513

 

 

David

C44376 - a weathering job to aspire to? ;)

2 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

There was a working in the early/mid 1990s that ran from Ramsgate to either Lime St or Piccadilly. Down via Folkestone, return via Faversham,

The Ramsgate service was Summer Sats only IIRC, and by the end was out from Birmingham and returning to Glasgow Central.

But it is a possibility of course in the earlier years before the end points changed.

I think Brighton just springs more readily to mind.