hexagon789

57 minutes ago, keefer said:

 

I hadn't really paid attention to the fact that it's a WCML train, never mind the fact it's The Royal Scot!

That made me think of alternatives and I was mistaken. It's not an RB but an RB(K) - similar to an RB but converted from the dia.17 RF coaches that the LMR insisted on having. 

I was remembering the RB were numbered in the 16xx/17xx range however the RB(K) were also in this range.

While typing this, found my copy of Parkin - M1643 was a dia.28 RB(K).

The dia.28 conversions from RF started in 1970 and 1643 had been done by the date of the pic.

 

The main visual difference from an RB (which you can't see here) is there are 4 full-size saloon windows and end vestibule doors, the RF was unique in this respect. RB/ RU had blank 'emergency' saloon doors and unevenly spaced/sized windows.

The corridor side 'kitchen' windows were slightly different from RB - RB(K) shown in this pic:

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/Coaches/Mk1-Coaching-Stock/Mk1-RF-Restaurant-First/i-d7RPSNX/A

(note the two 3' windows between the two kitchen doors).

 

So we were both incorrect but got there in the end!🙂

Thank you very much @keefer, interesting and enlightening! The explanation of the differences shows how little I knew of the visual differences.

I can cope with RMB vs restaurant or full buffet car but not with the various minutiae of all the range of original types and then the alterations and conversions performed later.

23 minutes ago, keefer said:

I thought more like an RB, so maybe M1643?

The corridor side of an RKB had pairs of windows between the doors:

http://www.eastbank.org.uk/images/Coaches/CS0201.jpg

 

 

Tbh, I was going purely off the number and I hesitated as to whether it was 1543 or 1643.

The reason I went with 1543 over 1643 was that I thought the Glasgow trains usually had a full kitchen RKB, that lasted until replaced by Mk3 RFB in the 80s together with the increase in running speed from 100 to 110mph, which required an all-Mk3 set (bar brake van).

If it is indeed an RB, then my apologies, but I hope you can appreciate my reasoning - flawed as it may be!

25 minutes ago, D860 VICTORIOUS said:

The fourth coach in picture C492,The Royal Scot,appears to be a catering coach.

Can anyone identify which type?

Looks like M1543, so an RKB?

9 hours ago, keefer said:

I think it is an RMB, showing the two-bay end i.e. just to the right will be the two half-height windows (opposite the buffet counter). The other end of the coach has the toilets. Note also the normal second class seating.

A BSOT will have a half-width window between the door and first seating bay.

An RBR doesn't have end vestibule doors.

I'd forgotten about the former toilet window on the BSOT. Could still be the XC Aberdeen, I've seen a few photos with RMB rather than RBR.

6 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

 

Didn't Perth/Inverness trains run via Ladybank at that time, so more likely to use the North lines?

Via Stirling became the usual route from the 1982 timetable, though one service each way used the Ladybank route until the May 1986 timetable when they then all went via Stirling until that all changed again when the Express Sprinter timetable was introduced on the Highland Main Line when Ladybank became the normal route again for all Edinburgh/Inverness trains except the Highland Chieftain to/from London, which continued to run via Stirling.

1 hour ago, coronach said:

Based on the presence of water pipes running towards roof tanks in the centre of the vehicle, I suspect the red banded coach is a buffet restaurant car

In which case, may I suggest the Penzance-Aberdeen?

1 hour ago, keefer said:

Not sure it's a Dundee train as those weren't diagrammed for a buffet car (they didn't even have 1st class).

Also heading into Edinburgh on the Up South line, so maybe an Inverness train or Edinburgh portion of a train from the WCML?

Fife/Dundee/Aberdeen trains usually used the North lines (the two tracks on the left).

While I agree with everything you've put there @keefer, one thing did suddenly spring to mind:

I've seen the odd use of a Mk1 BSOT on the Dundee sets, there were numerous variations with those but at least one had a red stripe over the first three window bays and only two bays can be seen in the photo.

Equally it could be a Mk1 RMB, but I think by April 1986, the Inverness sets were Mk2A/C with Mk2C TSOT and the few Aberdeens which weren't either ECML HST or XC LHCS workings were air-cons normally at this point AFAIR. It could even be an Aberdeen XC portion, as they had a restaurant or buffet car usually at the outer end from when the larger full sets (which usually had a Glasgow portion) were divided at Carstairs. We can only see the end of the first vehicle here, unless anyone can readily identify vehicle type from that.

Either way, unless @DaveF is certain it's a Dundee working it could be a few things.

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

But which end is what number!

Good question ;)

23 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

Is this the Midland Pullman (as is mentioned in the article title) and if so when did they lose the Midland prefix to the train name on the cab-side?

It's an ex-LMR set, so yes, as only those gained MU jumpers. I'd guess they lost the branding at or sooner after transfer to the Western Region

6 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

The MML , as existed when the six car set Midland Pullman was introduced went through  Monsal Dale and over Headstone Viaduct, as can be seen in this BFI film. The track didn't survive into the 1970s, never mind the 1980s.  You can see footage of the Midland Pullman in Upper Dale, running in both directions about 17 minutes into the footage. The inspector in the cab has a route list which can be seen 17 minutes into the the film and again 19minues 50 seconds in.

I never saw the Midland Pullman though I did see the WR 8 car set going through Swindon on a couple of occasions.

Both the route of the Blue Pullman to/from Manchester Central and the route as currently used between St Pancras International and Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield were 90mph max back then.

The present MML had four sections of 100mph running authorised for the introduction of the InterCity 125s during 1982 and then went to 110mph in 1993 IIRC and finally 125mph in January 2013.

2 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

Sorry, I thought you were referring to Mike's Bletchley photo!

 

 

Sorry about that, I see my reply was rather ambiguous. Apologies for any confusion.

8 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

The leading power car is an LMR one though.

I don't think the leading one can be seen in Stovepipe's photos?

36 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Here's one of the Midland Pullmans passing Bletchley whilst working a special from Preston to Wembley on 2 May 1964 in connection with the FA Cup Final where Preston North End met and lost 2-3 to West Ham.

 

 

Also, Stovepipe's photos of West Hartlepool on the previous page would appear to be one of the Western sets; note the branding "Pullman" rather than "Midland Pullman" on the power car.

I think is a WR set, the trailing vehicle looks to be a Motor Second rather than Motor First - three large windows rather than two plus a frosted lavatory one.

16 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

I don't suppose we know the id of that one?

Set with M60090/M60091

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

Last northbound working could still happen today, 1E73 1627 Plymouth to Leeds should be the final working to get 43007&008 into position for the tour.

 

RTT however had a voyager allocated so not certain at this point and best checked before anyone makes a journey to see the working.

1E73 now showing as an HST with 43007 and 43008.

A strengthened 2+8 as well.

22 hours ago, Waverley West said:

Hi again folks,

 

Just thought I'd post a few pics of WW's latest 47/7... a new tooling version partially resprayed/renumbered/weathered 47704 Dunedin, complete with oversized 8" numbers.

 

The loco is the first 47/7 on WW to be modelled as per its Eastfield days, with Westie logo. Eastfield never kept the 47/7s anything like as clean as Haymarket did when it had them and the photos show a covering of roof grime already descending on the loco, not all that many months after transfer to the Glasgow depot in October 1987. 

 

The dark grey on this loco had to be resprayed, as Bachmann's version is based on the modern version of the livery.

 

Here are some shots of the loco on the new Perth Mk 2z rake...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Mk 2z rake leaving platform 17 bound for Perth...

 

 

The loco has settled into its duties nicely. The ability to independently control head and tail lights with the new tooling is a real boon on push-pull services, as it makes it possible to run with tail lights only in push mode. On my locos on which it is not possible to independently control/permanently switch off the tail lights, I always disconnect the tail lights at the tension lock coupling end, so that a loco can never haul a train with its tail lights on. The lights at the end with buffer beam detailing can be left unaltered. 

 

The loco has become a real favourite on the layout and now rivals the "Duke" for popularity on push-pull services. I can firmly say though that I have no plans to replace my shove-duff fleet with all latest tooling versions. The previous Bachmann 47 was pretty good as it was and the cost involved really makes the idea unjustifiable. I have managed to pick up a couple cheap from Model Railways Direct though, so there will be more additions to the fleet soon!

 

I did experiment with using magnetic couplings on the Mk 2z rake, but I gave up in the end due to constant derailments on the ladder crossings through Princes St Gardens. The Mk 2f DBSO still has a magnetic coupling at the non-driving end, but the other coaches have been refitted with tension lock couplings. These seem to negotiate crossing better in push mode, due to their inherent slack. The magnetic couplings seemed to be too rigid.

 

In other news, a Realtrak 156 has just been completed. More on that to follow. This unit marks the end of the period covered by Waverley West (roughly 1980-1990). It will be accompanied by a pair of Bachmann 158s, which will be used on "trials" only, marking the transition away from loco-hauled trains from 1990 onwards, when Waverley gradually became a less interesting place. 

 

Hope to be back soon.

 

Happy Modelling!

Dave

 

 

The 2Z set and '704 looking magnificent together.

Don't know if it's of interest, but a video of trains at Waverley in January 1990, i.e. - at the end of your modelling era, cropped up in my YouTube feed last night.

Some interesting mixed formations to be seen:

(spompeytransportvideoYouTube)

4 hours ago, BoD said:

Did a through train (possibly only weekly?) run from Edinburgh to Oban until not too long ago?  Or is my memory/understanding playing tricks on me?

You are quite correct - it was Summer Sundays only and yes, only just withdrawn this May.

26 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

I do like the Northern livery on these units  very smart and at least they are kept clean.

Northern?

42 minutes ago, keefer said:

Don't know if it still runs but there used to be a single weekday direct service from Markinch to Queen St. (via Winchburgh and Falkirk Grahamston). 

Left Markinch at around 7am with the return from Queen St. around 5-5.30pm.

The Markinch - GLQ/GLQ - Kirkcaldy were removed with the introduction of the 'Fit for the Future' timetable, having been a weekday feature at least since Sprinterisation.

They were unusual in omitting Criy while still serving Bishopbriggs and Lenzie both ways.

43 minutes ago, keefer said:

Maybe the last remnant of the Fife Coast-Glasgow services which ended in the '60s?

Originally I believe it was to get a 156 over to Fife to work some local services there, it was nevertheless a 170 working for many years before withdrawal.

44 minutes ago, keefer said:

I meant to ask, any particular reason the 334s weren't cleared to N. Berwick? Or is it just that they weren't considered?

It's in passenger service and relates to the method of dispatch. (334s use cab mounted DOO cameras, while the North Berwick/Dunbar services are still guard dispatch.)

58 minutes ago, keefer said:

Apologies I was sure I'd read that somewhere, must've been when the Waverley-Helensburgh trains started.

Also it's not via Shotts (my error) but via Bathgate & Airdrie.

No need to apologise, and I hadn't noticed the second bit ;)

To add to the 'interesting' through services in Scotland; back in early privatisation NatEx ScotRail ran some interesting through workings:

Edinburgh to Wick

Glasgow to Kyle of Lochalsh 

Kyle to Edinburgh 

Wick to Aberdeen 

Aberdeen to Kyle

Edinburgh to Aberdeen via Inverness 

Of course these all reversed at Inverness and were just joining workings to save a unit, but I suppose handy for obviating the need to change trains.

(Today there is the early morning Inverness to Edinburgh via Aberdeen and afternoon Glasgow to Inverness via Aberdeen; run more for operational reasons.)

On 12/09/2023 at 20:26, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I'm not sure of the dates, but privatisation might have been responsible for Devon and Cornwall West Coast trains becoming Manchester only, rather than going through to Scotland. Most of the direct trains mentioned by the OP had long gone by the time of privatisation.

That was the failure of Operation Princess and consequent DfT ordered XC retrenchment in 2003 and again in 2008.

On 12/09/2023 at 10:42, AMJ said:

Following on from privatisation many if not all of the longer distance through train services seem to have been cut back to shorter journeys if they still exist.

 

Examples include the St Pancras to Glasgow trains that used the Midland and S&C.  By the 80's these change to Nottingham - Glasgow and eventually just Leeds - Carlisle.

A few of the trans-Pennine used to go through to the north Wales coast at Llandudno and we used to be able to remember the station order as per the announcement prior to departure from Leeds.

 

There were boat trains that ran down the WCML through Kensington Olympia before heading to the channel ports.  Managed to get one of these so that I had loco haulage to Dover in 88.

 

One service that I used to like was the Manchester - Harwich boat train.  Often in the 80's it would have a celebrity loco.  I saw it with the GWR 47's in Sheffield.

 

Other than the services run by cross country most of these seem to have gone by the wayside as they probably tread upon too many operators toes.

All those you've mentioned went under BR, some around Sprinterisation or earlier.

29 minutes ago, keefer said:

I think the example I read about was something like 13 BCKs in a 15 or 16 coach train!

A (relatively) recent through service was added by ScotRail, although it goes East-West and not to an English destination. After various electrification schemes were completed, a service from North Berwick-Helensburgh was introduced using 25kV EMUs.

As with other 'classic' through trains, end-to-end on one train is possible but at a considerable time penalty, particularly as this example seems to be the amalgamation of several (slow) stopping services.

IIRC the middle, Edinburgh-Glasgow section is the slow route via Shotts which is much slower than the ScotRail Express into Glasgow Queen St.

When did ScotRail ever operate North Berwick to Helensburgh?

The 334s are not cleared past Waverley for one.

If you'd said North Berwick to Ayr, then I wouldn't have objected... (that did run until COVID, plus a few just to/from Edinburgh).

I think you may have misinterpreted a timetable or something, sorry.

12 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

"I would suggest that they did exactly what it said on the tin!"

I find that comment really funny because they did exactly the opposite.

What part of running slower than designed (on any route - they were limited to 90 everywhere) & providing a rough ride at speed met the requirements of "Fast luxury travel".

 

They did prove the concept of a lightweight power car at each end, successfully used by the HST. 

 

Nowhere permitted anything faster than 90 when they were introduced.

The MML was 90mph until 1982.

The GWML was 90mph (it had been nominally unrestricted until 1960) until 1966.

Even the ECML and WCML ionly had some 100mph sections introduced from 1964.

11 minutes ago, DaveF said:

Next come some photos at Crewe in 1971 and 1972 when I was still living in Mancehster as a student.  When I could afford it tried to go out on Saturdays to get away from student life and writing essays etc.

 

 

Crewe Class 50s 414 & 404 up ex pass 13th March 71 C483

 

 

Crewe Class 86 E3163 Liverpool to Euston 13th March 71 C506

 

 

Crewe Class 86 E3126 Euston to Manchester 11.31 Sat 5th Feb 72 C0814

 

 

Crewe Class 86 E3183 Euston to Liverpool Sat 5th Feb 72 C0817

 

 

Crewe Class 108 ecs 5th Feb 72 C0821

 

David

Lovely set of photos, so evocative of the early 70s without really having to look at the years.

Regrading C483 - 1M18 was the 0740 Glasgow Central to London Euston.