hexagon789

8 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

I investigated the possibility of travelling from Bristol to Worcestershire Parkway and found that there is only one direct service - a Bristol - Stansted service calling at 7:36. Otherwise it is generally served by Crosscountry services from Cardiff to Birmingham.

 

It seems a poor show that there is really no direct service between this station and the West Country. Does it represent a (partial) failure of the concept? had it been an aspiration for Bristol trains to call there? Why do they not call? Is it for commercial reasons (insufficient demand) or operational (the line is too busy)?

It was intended, and still is, for two further XC services each way per hour to call.

These being one call per hour each way in the South West to Scotland and the Bristol to Manchester routes.

Accommodating the stops requires not insignificant alterations to the timetable without omitting stops elsewhere, so it will need a future recast to solve this. (I understand the alternative was to omit Cheltenham in alternative services.)

I'm not aware of aspirations for this to happen next year, especially given that the long planned changes to the timetable periods have been postponed, throwing next year's changes into a bit of chaos already.

57 minutes ago, keefer said:

1E11 was some train - 13 coaches, quite long for an ECML service, with RU+RUO for (1st class) dining and an RMB further back for 2nd class.

I think most were 12 before the air-cons appeared, then the standard Anglo-Scottish timing load became D385 (11 vehicles).

1E11 is down in the workings books as 12 vehicles, but 13 (an extra TSO) on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays. The timing load is the maximum D455 (13 vehicles) all week, with a scheduled journey time of 6hrs 32.

On 20/08/2023 at 22:42, 03060 said:

 

I'm not sure as to how they took over exactly but I do remember that they seemed to be running as 3 car units at first instead of the now customary 2, 4 or 6 car units. This is backed up with photos on p.47 of Bob Avery's Rails To The Isles book (Railway World Special) taken in the summer of 1989, the units themselves being introduced onto the WHL in Jan of that year, with the 3 car re-jig to try and alleviate overcrowding.

 

Regards,

Ian.

They ran as 3-car in the Summers of 1989 and 1993. Corkerhill made up six 3-car sets specially, each running as 6 to Crianlarich, then 3 each to Oban & Mallaig.

The 158 issues precluded this being repeated in 1990 and 1991, as 156s had to cover for the not yet available 158s on Edinburgh - Glasgow and Glasgow - Aberdeen.

The Inverness - Aberdeen sets were also made up as 3s for the first year (1989), with four such sets leaving a single 2 spare. Again the 158 issues meant this wasn't repeated, in fact the service reverted to loco-hauled in 1990 to free up the 156s to Haymarket. 

13 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

Bare in mind that after January 1989 all WHL trains except for the sleeper had gone over to Sprinters meaning the coaching stock was available for other work. BR continued to withdraw life expired Mk1s and what was left was used as and where required. If I recall correctly, there are several pictures showing Network South East liveried rolling stock working the Far North. To find SCR stock on the Western region does not come as a surprise to me.

 

 

Based upon the pictures that I have looked at, I would say a high percentage of trains of the 1980's WHL era contained a BSOT. For modelling purposes I would like to include a BSOT in each of the 5 rakes used on the WHL. However the booked load was 6 coaches and having selectively compressed my stations, I only run load 4 which means that I either have 2 brake coaches in a 4 coach consist or just the BSOT on its own. I am trialling load 5 on the 2 Oban rakes at present but am not convinced that the extended train looks right on WHL4.   

 

At inception the BSOT fleet was split between Eastern and Scottish regions. I believe that the Eastern used them on Liverpool Street Cambidge services and they were trialled on the Birmingham Norwich services. Presumably these fell out of fashion for some reason as the P5 Coaching Stock books show the evolution of the BSOT fleet on creation and their migration to the SCR during the early 80's. I suspect that the railway journals of the day will have an article or two on this; is anyone aware of such an article? Can we get our collective hands on a copy.

 

From Robert Carroll's Coaching Stock Groups collection, the 1982/3 CWN's for peoples reference. There are other years available on Robert's IO Group.

 

ScR_1982-3_PTM Carriage workings.pdf 6.7 MB · 5 downloads

 

 

5 hours ago, SC55015 said:

Did their demise on the WHL - other than 9015 + 9016 - come earlier than that, when the 37/4s took over (circa 1986) ? If all the others were only steam heat then that would just leave two useable vehicles.

Notes I have taken from the Summer 1987 PTM shows the Oban/Fort William/Mallaig sets as still having a BSOT. They are shown as Mk1 Vac Brake and Load 6: BSK - TSO - TSO - TSO* - TSO* BSOT (*Mk2 vehicles). Five sets total. Nothing stated on heating but I presume the original document would have this detail.

25 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

permanently withdraw? would they not have a leasing contract on them so unless they could find another use then they'd be stuck with them?

Warm store until Spring 2024 when the current TPE lease on them runs out.

Then - who knows...?

1 hour ago, drjcontroller said:

I have a photo taken at Doncaster on 23/7/89 of 91005 departing with 1A24, the 15:23 Hull to Kings Cross blunt end first on Mk2 stock. I don't know whether it was being used for driving training or whether this was a diagrammed working, but it was certainly a revenue earning WTT service.

 

Douglas

They hauled a few conventional trains in the early years. Including the Peterborough commuter Mk2 set.

14 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Yup.

 

To reiterate the 91s have NEVER hauled (or pushed) anything other than the Mk4s or the MK3 + HST power car acting as a DVT) in revenue earning service.

 

Any pictures of them with anything else are commissioning / post works testing runs.

The regularly hauled the evening Peterborough commuter Mk2 set in revenue service in the early years.

They have also worked a few railtours of predominantly Mk1 coaches.

On 12/08/2023 at 20:53, aictosphotos said:

As a fan of the Class 117 going back to working the NVR one as a trainee guard many years ago, I've read the Wikipedia article which states their final days in Scotland were used on the Edinburgh - Perth, Cowdenbeath and Markinch services via the Forth Bridge however the article states that they did this until 12th January 1998 when Class 156s replaced them BUT the article than goes on to say the final day of Class 117 operations was 27th November 1999.

 

So was the former date mentioned actually the last time they were in passenger service and if so what did Scotrail (National Express) do with them for nearly 23 months if the latter day was the last day of operations?

 

With that being said, the website in the link here has a few photos which are dated 10th February 1999 clearly showing that Scotrail were still using the fleet in their twillight years.

 

As does the Scot-Rail website here so can I assume that the fleet stayed in passenger operation right up to 27th Nov 1999? 

 

So anyone more clued up than me who explain who's actually accurate here please?

 

 

They were used until late-1999. The introduction of the 170s and the September timetable change enabled their final withdrawal through cascading.

Most were actually replaced by 150s/158s rather than 156s, which remained uncommon in the Fife area - there was a peak Kirkcaldy stopper which was booked 156 but everything else booked 150 or 158 AFAIK.

Later, the one of the subsequent batchsles of 170s (the units numbered 450-461) enabled the withdrawal of the 150s (which went to Wales IIRC) and the Fife/Perth local services became the 158/170 mix they remain to this day.

On 04/08/2023 at 08:16, adb968008 said:

Pictures elsewhere on social media show 3 GWR power cars, and 13 LNER mk3s awaiting export from Yarmouth docks.

 

no concensus on where to, but Mexico  offered as suggestion.

Mexico for the new Tren Maya network out of Cancún.

20 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

mentioned that the conversion from cable hauled to electric was done in part using material recovered from withdrawn trams.

Yes, and quite logically.

In 1923, the Subway was taken over by Glasgow Corporation who of course operated Glasgow's extensive tram network.

Indeed, I understand that the Subway in this period was administered as though it was in effect another tram line.

4 minutes ago, aictosphotos said:

Back when the Night Riveria had a Plymouth portion, what was the operation like at Plymouth itself?

 

Bearing in mind I don't know if it was formed of a single carriage or two, was it shunted to a platform and left there all day or shunted to a platform than shunted to the depot once all the passengers had disembarked.

 

Rail says it was poorly used by passengers hence why it was withdrawn.

At the end it was a single SLEP, shunted on/off by an 08.

7 minutes ago, Welly said:

^^

I've counted 44 HAAs in the video! That's 2200 tonnes.

46 (I counted twice to be sure), so an even more impressive 2300 tonnes... :)

5 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

"C15384 - the idea of Manchester to Cardiff in a Class 153 - arrrghh "

Better than a Pacer!

J

3 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Also better than Manchester to Llandudno on a summer Saturday in a 150 with a six-year-old, a three-year-old and no working toilet.

What about Scarborough to Holyhead in a 150/2?

That was a scheduled service for a period in the latter 1980s until the 156s and 158s came in.

11 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

In 1969/70 a turn up and buy day return Sheffield to Chesterfield was 4/3 or 21 and a bit pence, nowadays it seems to be £11, I'm sure wages haven't risen 50+ times since then have they?

 

Mike.

I don't know where you get £11 from but the four main return fares (Std Class) are in the fares database as:

Off-Peak Day Return (Northern Only) - £5.20

Anytime Day Return (Northern Only) - £6.40

Off-Peak Day Return (Any Permitted) - £6.70

Anytime Day Return (Any Permitted)

- £8.20

Given the greatly lower % of people buy at the station now (compared to online, commonly through an app) and even fewer from a ticket office than a TVM, this has been a few years coming I think.

One of my local stations (suburban, 6tph) still has a ticket office - staffed Mon-Fri 06-14 hrs. According to the published stats, it sold 7 seaon tickets and fewer than 140 tickets in the last annual period. That cannot be sustainable - that's about 1 ticket every two days of the days that it's open.

1 hour ago, Duncan 1992 said:

The Scotrail HST's will all be out of service on August 12th 2023 after ASLEF confirm that they will be black listing them as Scotrail have not even started the modifications drivers were demanding. Not exactly sure what was demanded. Nothing dedicated to replace them of course so, expect to see DMU services across Scotland to be short formed for the foreseeable to cover the intercity routes. Could be interesting to maybe even see 156's working Edinburgh/Glasgow to Inverness/Aberdeen services. Or, an influx of none-union drivers, in which case ASLEF will bring the Scottish network to a complete standstill.

The circular in question specifies "legacy traction", not HSTs specifically - so that's anything pre-1995 out of service:

HSTs

156s

158s

318s

320s

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

And coal was always more costly in Ireland, because most of it had to be shipped in.

 

The Enterprise remained a classic heavy, loco-hauled train into the 1970s and beyond though, didn’t it? In fact, thinking about it, it still was when I was last over there, which must have been about five years ago now. Ah, but thinking about it, maybe with a DVT.

 

 

 

 

The Enterprise became railcars (to use the Irish term) after steam finished. NIR and CIE then independently switched to loco-haulage during the early 1970s.

New-build dedicated push-pull sets appeared from 1997 and remain in use today, though plans have just recently been drawn up for their replacement.

18 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

... and probably don't really care a smut about what's on the front anyway !

Quite

15 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

With regard to the sounds, surely the answer is to have a strategically positioned mic, and broadcast the loco sounds over the PA system?

Doesn't need to be loud, and could be restricted to certain vehicles only.

Anything is possible with the right will

5 hours ago, frobisher said:

As I understand it, there was a difference in the control systems between the EMUs and DEMUs which would come into play.  The two types couldn't work together so effectively isolating the two from each other would stop the problem occurring (because let's face it, if you could connect two MU types together, SR would do it).  So that might have pre-empted the obvious step of making the DEMUs bimode.

5 hours ago, 25kV said:

Given that control system interoperability existed between (say) 33s, 73s and EMU stock, it's probably not beyond the bounds of possibility that the SR could have made a bi-mode unit work, so it's perhaps that they just didn't need to... 

Now I'm leaping to the 1980s in my head and a bi-mode Class 210/455 design... :)

The prototype refurbished Hampshire unit 205101 (fitted with gangways etc during its refurb) had its control systems modified so that it could, in theory, multi with an EMU.

38 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

OK if you don't want to hear or smell the steam loco .......... ☹️

Depends on precisely what the main clientele is. On something like a luxury dining charter - I suspect most people, particularly in First Class,  don't care about the sounds, smells and smuts...

1 hour ago, montyburns56 said:

I don't follow the modern railtour scene, so I don't know if this is rare or not, but it certainly looks weird.

 

 

Getting more common to see AC stock behind steam. Especially given most tours have a trailing diesel on the back, which can easily supply power for the coaches (though generator brakes are often used too).

26 minutes ago, 4630 said:

Crewe Diesel Preservation Group's 47712 Lady Diana Spencer, on hire to Locomotive Services Limited, guest appearing at the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway's diesel gala leaving Keighley on 23rd June 2023 and heading up the 1 in 56 of Keighley bank, with the ScotRail push-pull set in tow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Excellent selection of photos.

On 22/06/2023 at 17:15, DaveF said:

Lastly today a visit to the Higland Railway on the line from Inverness to Wick and Thurso.

 

 

Culrain Class 26 5333 Inverness to Wick and Thurso Aug 73 J3305

 

 

Invershin 2x Class 26, note different yellow ends Inverness to Wick and Thurso Aug 73 J3307

 

 

Invershin Class 24 Inverness to Wick and Thurso Aug 73 C1319

 

 

Invershin Class 24 Wick and Thurso to Inverness Aug 73 C1322

 

 

Kinbrace Class 26 5339 heading north Aug 73 C1330

 

David

J3305 is just a lovely shot there - classic Northern Highlands...

21 hours ago, keefer said:

Hence when at, or first pulling away from a station stop, the rear PC was louder (esp. in Valenta days) as it was always at least in notch 2 for the ETS. Whereas the lead PC would be at idle,  start to pull away in notch 1, then 2 etc.

Notch 1 is an identical engine speed to idle.

Traditionally the technique was straight to 3, 4 when rolling and then 5. Some drivers did go right to 5 - with mixed results at times, some load governors didn't appreciate the 'whack it open' technique and would consequently give no power.

The modern technique is to start in 2, and go through each notch in turn as amps settle.

Usually getting into 5 at 20-25mph.

The short sets accelerate pretty quickly, so not uncommon (at least with ScotRail) to not always use 5 starting away from intermediate stations if the permitted speed isn't very high.

Braking is another thing which has changed - use of the higher steps and Full Service was common for stations stops and speed restrictions as much as for signal checks.

Post-defensive driving, most TOCs adopted a Step 2 'initial' policy.

Step 5 and 6 remained frequently used for signal checks, especially as some TOCs adopted a further policy of requiring speed to be reduced to 60mph by the single yellow on four-aspect multiple aspect signalling.

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Have you never heard the term 'steel rope' used for such things ? 🙃

Never in relation to the Glasgow Subway - which was always denoted as 'cable hauled'.

A different matter from the Cowlairs incline from Queen Street, which was described as rope-worked and I believe used a hemp rope.