hexagon789

12 minutes ago, icn said:

Both Italy and France do seem to have a knack for ugly driving trailers, but the German IC driving trailers aren't bad (the current livery is probably the worst they've seen - the MET livery was probably best), and the SBB single-deck carriages similarly (the double-deck carriages used to look like lumbering elephants, but the new livery makes them look reasonable). To be fair the SBB carriages were custom-built (but based on an existing carriage design), but the German one is a conversion.

 

But I think the difference here is: the DBSO dates from 1979, and equivalent driving carriages from Germany in Switzerland in that timeframe are also very utilitarian - the following is a great example although it's also by far the worst I could find:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Bn-Wendezug.jpg

Indeed, and that German one looks suspiciously 'runaway coach'-like! ;)

43 minutes ago, JeffP said:

But they dont look like runaway coaches.

Nor do their dmu's and emu's.

Most of ours do.

We're getting ever more of topic; I'll just finish by saying there is a limit to what one can do with a conversion on a budget compared to a from-scratch purpose built design.

6 hours ago, 62613 said:

Going to Glasgow; what for? Some sort of relief, or special?

Not entirely, some coaches are labelled 'BIRMINGHAM' and some 'EDINBURGH'.

4 minutes ago, DaveF said:

A final set for today which are all taken at Sewstern.  Sewstern yard and workshops were originally part of the British Steel network of lines serving the ironstone quarries and mines at the end of the High Dyke branch.  After the quarries closed the site became a railway workshop concernd with preserved locos and stock, it also formed part of the general preservation attempt of the High Dyke branch and the ironstone lines to Market Overton where Pendennis Castle and Flying Scotsman (amongst others) were based for a time in the early 70s.

 

The photos were taken with permission, easily obtained as my father managed the Sewstern site and worked closely with those at Market Overton looking after Bill McAlpine's and John Gretton's locos and stock.

 

 

Sewstern ex BR Class 03 D2381 with Gresley GNR inspection saloon Nov 73 J3479

 

 

Sewstern GNR inspection saloon built 1912 DE320042 Jan 74 J3524

 

 

Sewstern Barclay Harlaxton and 1912 DE 320042 Jan 74 J3535

 

 

Sewstern wheel lathe Ellerman Lines behind Feb 74 J3583  Ellerman Lines was there to be sectioned for display at the NRM in York

 

 

Sewstern Gunby Road crossing Avonside Fred at rear of train D2381 and Primrose No 2 at front plus Gesley inspection saloon Oct 74 J4060

 

 

David

That last one has such a varied and eclectic mix of stock that I dare someone to model it. Not me of course! ;)

Interesting as ever, Hexagon789.

23 minutes ago, JeffP said:

Why, oh why do we persist in dbso's that have a flat front, even a gangway?

The French ones are always more stylish.

I don't see how it's a 'persistence?

They've looked that way for 33 years, it's not a current design.

There are no other DBSO types. The other driving trailer designs are purpose designed DVTs, designed to match either Class 90 or 91 locos respectively. The French Corail driving trailers are not exactly pretty...

53 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

The DBSO doesn't appear to have a cow catcher. I thought that was a requirement for a DBSO after Polmont?

The obstacle deflector is still there, I think it's the fresh paint makes it blend in more - perhaps this photo from ALAN HART shows it better:

(ALAN HART Flickr)

1 hour ago, westie7 said:

Well after today's announcement from Accurascale, these formations are more than achievable without major surgery 🥳 

Very nice, I need some CKs and TSOTs myself.

For anyone who wishes to see the set out and about on her three-day tour to Scotland, these are the relevant schedules on Realtime Trains: 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66003/2023-02-24/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66006/2023-02-25/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66007/2023-02-25/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66008/2023-02-25/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66009/2023-02-25/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66012/2023-02-26/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66013/2023-02-26/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66014/2023-02-26/detailed

13 minutes ago, keefer said:

And this of course harks back to the system used by the p-p cl.27s i.e only so-fitted coaches could be used

Effectively identical bar a few modern fault indication updates

13 minutes ago, keefer said:

The cl.47/7 system was a Glasgow Works home-made solution which was developed into the TDM system, advantage being any coaches with RCH/lighting jumpers could be placed in a set.

I understood that was jointly developed by BR and Brush 

and initially at least there were plans to utilise additional BSOs with modified 81s/85s on the Great Eastern Main Line to Norwich, some 10 years before push-pull was actually introduced there.

15 minutes ago, keefer said:

Is it just me or is the dark upper panel black, instead of Executive/Intercity dark grey?

It looks a bit dark I agree, but LSL do usually make the effort to get the correct colour specs.

When I've seen her with my own eyes as opposed to through the camera lens, I'll give you my verdict on that!

36 minutes ago, newbryford said:

There is a possibility that a model set will be running on Deadmans Lane ate Glasgow in two weeks.

Courtesy of a friend.

 

There's a few details still to be sorted.

 

 

The real life set will also be visiting Glasgow on the weekend of the show! It's due at Queen Street as part of its tour at 1000 on Saturday the 25th.

6 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

Presumably the 'lag' is on applying power and the brakes are still controlled instantly from the DBSO?

 

Yes, standard brake controller identical to that in a 47 - and using the UIC twin-pipe automatic air brake system. 

2 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Blue star was my thought given the DBSO's recent use with DRS/37s

I imagine that was a major reason behind choosing to use Blue Star, bit equally some 47s were converted to Green Circle which is very similar to Blue Star with some jumper and fault indication differences.

It's also easier to use with older locos which use control air throttles as well, you may as well simply use air to control engine speed from a driving trailer than fit an electronic system to transmit control inputs which then has to interface to something which then sets a control air pressure for the engine control itself.

The one draw back is lag, at least the sets are short but you need to make sure the control pipe is fairly leak free otherwise the control air pressure gets low and it takes an absolute age to transmit a throttle speed increase.

1 hour ago, newbryford said:

47712 has been out and about on test with LSL's push pull set. Flickr pics

 

 

Not using the original TDM control, but the Class 47 MU connector - you can see the jumper plugged in just above the buffer beam. 

Which makes perfect sense if 712 was to suffer a failure, other LSL47s can be used.

 

Excellent photos.

The MU system they are using is Blue Star. The DBSO was already converted by DRS to use this in conjunction with 37s and Blue Star is one of the more widely used systems.

47712 plus two other 47s have been modified to use Blue Star and the Mk3 coaches have had a through control air pipe fitted.

48 minutes ago, D6150 said:

Thanks for the feedback. Passenger loadings seem to be quite light from Aberdeen to Dundee whenever I'm travelling, so I wondered if a 220 was more cost-effective than a 221? Having said that, there is usually a good crowd waiting to board in Dundee. 

I've always been puzzled that the reverse trip from Plymouth/Penzance stops at Edinburgh/Dundee. Thanks 

221s do drink more fuel, not merely the extra carriage - they are heavier as well.

A lot of the intermediate stops haven't been added back yet. Leuchars is due to be inserted again from May, but the calls at Cupar, Ladybank, Markinch, Kirkcaldy and Inverkeithing are not.

There was always some Fife to Edinburgh traffic on the service.

The current offering is a far cry from Virgin's two-hourly Dundee to Cardiff service plus one a day Aberdeen-Poole that was part of the original Voyager timetable.

1 hour ago, D6150 said:

Another "under the bridge" shot from me. Here's 220020 at Dundee this morning. Bright but cold, maybe spring is on the way?

When I travelled on the Aberdeen-Plymouth service last year it was normally worked by Class 221's. This year so far it's been Class 220's. Has there been a change of policy at CrossCountry or are the two classes normally used interchangeably?

 

Thanks 

 

Ken

Fully interchangeable, has been since 2008 when XC ceased dedicating 221s to specific diagrams requiring EPS running. For instance, yesterday 1V60 (0820 Aberdeen to Plymouth) was a 221, today it was a 220.

You may be interested to know that 1V60 is down to be extended to Penzance again from May. The northbound continues to terminate at Edinburgh however, except on Fridays and Saturdays as per the December timetable change.

1 hour ago, Art Dent said:

How would a fireman know what spped he was doing in a speed-restricted section??

Experience, just as crew had to use at the beginning.

Bear in mind that the physical marking of speed restrictions was not universal either, only the LNER had provided speed markers on most of its system by the time of nationalisation.

The GWR and SR only provided indicators where there was a lack of a landmark to provide drivers with a means to know where to check speed. 

I'm not sure what LMS policy was.

BR adopted the LNER system, but I believe we would be into the 1960s before all surviving lines were equipped.

16 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I think they wanted it gone so they could accelerate services - the location of the platform is now the fast lines from Crewe with the slow lines now part of the flyover realignment away from the the station as was.  Clearly not enough patronage to justify a new station.

Quite probably, I think I was just surprised how much grater the service was than I expected. I anticipated finding a one or two train each way service, perhaps Mon-Fri only but the service was significantly better than anticipated. Perhaps I was thinking too much of Polesworth.

49 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Looks like quite a few people about to alight at Norton Bridge, bet they were pleased when it shut.

Interestingly, in its last year with trains as opposed to the replacement road transport which served it for a period between trains no longer calling and the station actually being legally closed, it had 2,080 passengers. One could perhaps argue that was due to a poor service which I had expected, except I was surprised to learn on looking at the Winter 2002-03 timetable that it had 9 calls each way Mon-Fri (7 Saturdays) on a two-hourly off-peak/hourly peak pattern. That means on average only about 1 in 3 trains calling there had a passenger to/from Norton Bridge. The timings were quite reasonable for commuting or leisure use as well.

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

Also worth noting that 2 185s (i.e. 6 cars) have a higher power output (4500hp) than a 68 with 5 coaches (3800hp) and will weigh less.

Though the 68 transmission is more efficient and can theoretically apply full power from a stand. Due to limitations in accepting the high torque output of the QSK engines in the Class 185, the throttle control system automatically restricts power to Notch 4 maximum until 20mph and does a similar rpm/power output restriction after each transmission stage change.

And no, the 185s weigh considerably MORE!

Class 185 three-car unit: 163 tonnes tare

Class 68 + standard 5-coach Mk5A

set: 245.8 tonnes tare (of which the 68 contributes 85t).

I.e. a six-car 185 formation weighs more than 80 tonnes more over a Nova 3 formation.

Also the 185s put out about 600bhp at rail per coach; the 68 can put out about 3,220 (2400kW). Neither figure taking ETS loads into account.

1 hour ago, rogerzilla said:

Why does the Nova 3 have a 3,800hp (Type 5 in the olden days) loco to move only five coaches?  Is it because no-one makes a suitable lower-powered loco now?  It's the sort of job that used to be done by a BRCW Type 2 or 3.

Because the timetable requires it.

8 hours ago, melmerby said:

The "Midland Pullman" ones also have an upper headlight.

 

 

Allows them to dispense with Yellow ends.

Modern standards require the upper marker light above the cab window, if you have that and sufficiently bright headlight(s) then the yellow ends aren't required.

As usual, various grandfather rights apply, particularly to steam locomotives.

3 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

I take it modern DMU/EMUs have failsafe EP brakes. London Underground introduced failsafe EP brakes on 1973 stock, if I remember correctly, so British Rail and its successors ought to have caught up by now. 😀

 

HSTs, of course, only have automatic air, with the addition of brake applications being being made by valves in both power cars (but not, I think, brake releases, although I could be mistaken).

Yes, HSTs are EP assist on power cars in application only.

BR introduced Westcode 3-step 'energise to release' EP brakes with the 1976-built Class 313s.

All modern units use some form of EP braking system, a Westcode itself is certainly used on 

1 hour ago, D6150 said:

I've always assumed it's a footbridge, but does anyone know for sure? 

It was but isn't publically accessible now. It used to provide direct access from what is now Riverside Drive bit the buildings above the station are now a music school, so it provides their access point.

Wheelspin Protection wasn't removed on refurbishment, the two main traction control changes were removal of the current limiter control and altering the throttle control system from the specialist 'closed loop' system to a standard 'open loop' one.

It certainly reduced complications with the specialist electronics but equally removed the benefits those systems were originally included to provide.

Couldn't just floor it on a 50 anymore, you'd overload them or more likely - spin the wheels and then the WSP would cut the power after a lag and then if really badly handled, the train would stall.

The original control system on the 50s gave them much better performance getting away from a stand.

9 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I had assumed that they were common on the Liverpool St - Kings Lynn services.

The King's Lynn services were Vacuum Braked Mk2s ISTR.