C126

Please forgive my coming to this particular story a decade late - I have just discovered these posts, and am working my way through - but it is a delight to see a railway scene with beautifully dressed ladies and gentlemen. As one who goes weak-kneed at a crinoline, and flounces round in a frock coat at any opportunity, it is a shame there are not more layouts thus. As a useless piece of information, I believe the (otherwise wonderful) Charles Frederick Worth of Paris decided the 'full' (round, bell) crinoline passe in 1862, his designs moving towards one with a flatter front and more Edwardian 'bustle' shape. And do not get me started on the replacement of 'white tie' evening dress with casual 'black' by the Prince of Wales/Edward vii. in the '80's... Wonderful blogs, and I look forward to reading more as time allows.

If you will forgive me for 'blowing my own trumpet', I did my best to photograph it comprehensively when parked in Eastbourne Goods Yard in 1987: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/album/4674-br-s-dept-wagons-and-stock-1980s-and-90s/ Scoll to the second page of photos. Hope this is of help if you were thinking of modelling it!

Please permit me the honour of presenting my compliments to your mother, and expressing the hope she would have enjoyed travelling in a 2H to Town occasionally, and perhaps home in a nice Mk. I. during the peak hours! I have not forgotten your and others' kind words of advice over the years, and these are no exception. Looking forward to purchasing a triple of Accurascale MDVs in the summer for my coal yard very much. Still got the idea of a canning factory rattling around at the back of my mind; I need to find out what sort of sheet coils to buy, but am having a bit of a crisis with the pointwork in the passenger station to-day, redesigning it so the loco platform can 'release' onto a loop directly, instead of needing part of the other platform as well. A post to follow soon, I hope!

Many thanks for that; the Urdu(?) commentary is delightful, and gets you 'in the mood'. I was surprised at the 'thinness' of the sauce/gravy, and the amount of salt... Also, the garam masaala was simmered in for only two minutes: I thought one left it for 5-10 mins. Lots to ponder. Despite my efforts over the last month, the 'curry freezer' still lacks space, but I hope to get some mutton a.s.a.p. Thanks and best wishes to you all.

It is pl. 103, by "R. E. Ruffell", in Marsden's 'The diesel shunter - a pictorial record', 1981. Caption: "A rather interesting scene photographed at Waterloo station on 30 June, 1973, when D4114, later 09 026, hauled the daily milk train from Clapham Junction to Vauxhall and thence Waterloo, formed of one GWR milk tank wagon and a BG coach. D4111, later 09 023, has been attached to the country end to haul this train back to Clapham Junction. The 09 on the rear will now take up the duties of station pilot." The BG is certainly not a B.R. Mk. I, but I do not know enough to say if it is L.M.S. or not. It is in B.R. blue/grey. Interestingly, searching for this turned up another photograph by Ruffell on p. 69 of Pallant and Bird's 'Diesel and electric locomotives of the southern region', 1984. Caption: "No. 74.001 and empty milk tank at Waterloo in March 1976. An '08' class shunter normally worked this humble duty." It is just a tank, and no van.

If you can get him to 'download his brain' about this work, I am sure I will not be alone in being most grateful!

Thanks to @SED Freightman for the timings. I came across a photograph in 'BR Diesel freight in the traditional era' - OAKLEY, Michael, Truro : D. Bradford Barton, [n.d.], by F. R. Kerr, of 09 002 pulling a single milk tank and guard's van at Vauxhall (it is a zoom close-up from above, showing only the viaduct and running lines as surrounding). There is a half-page of text explaining the routing via Waterloo, and how milk, "the aristicrat [sic] of general freight work", receives "special attention everywhere". Just need those OO milk tanks to be delivered from China to purchase a.s.a.p.!

May I just thank you all for contributing to this thread, the result being I have assumed my Milk Empties arrive at the siding by the station at around 09.30, and depart loaded for London at around 22.00. All this is pure phantasy so far, having yet to find the desired milk tanks to buy, but there is no rush... I hope the information has been useful to others as well. With my best wishes to you all, and thanks again.

Just as this was posted, I started trawling through Flickr for such images under the simple "milk train" search term. Some lovely pics out there, and interesting info. from a user about moaning lorry-drivers stopping the reuse of Chard Jn by EWS in the '90's. Many thanks to you all for this and all the contributions so far. I will start drafting my time table on Saturday...

Hurrah! I am so glad for you. Inspired by your example, I tried plotting a 'pattern' to my (still theoretical) passenger trains yester-day, and trying to interweave parcels, news, milk, etc. Never knew platform occupation and usage was so complicated! Happy reading, and let us know how you get on.

Many thanks @Fat Controller for such a prompt reply. I had forgotten to allow for the processes of chilling, pasteurisation, etc.! However, that is just the sort of timings I need.

Sorry to be so dull-witted, but there is a big 'milk train following' on RMWeb, so I hope someone can answer a simple question for me: How many days old was the milk in the tank trains from the West Country by the time it was discharged at the London terminals (particularly Vauxhall)? The farm milks its cows twice a day (Day 1), morning and evening. If a farm had its milk taken (say mid-day) on Day 1 to the nearest 'concentration depot', in Devon, for example, was it then loaded that evening to be taken by train over-night to London, and so unloaded/ discharged on the morning of Day 2? Or would the 'supply chain' be slower? I would just like to know when the milk tanks arrived to be loaded, to get up to London a.s.a.p. I am planning a milk siding for my Southern Region layout ('Rule 1'); when must one 'slot in' the arrival of empty tanks (mid-morning?), and departure to Town of filled ones (early evening?). All help gratefully received, and thanks as always for giving this your consideration.

As a hoarder prone to a 'terminal' state of mind about memories and things being lost, in parallel I wonder often if there is a 'meta-list' of collections of railway photographs. Not all the credited photographers one sees in the railway books and magazines of the 1970's and '80's are on the inter-web. Is there a 'master-page' somewhere to click on for the archive of John Vaughan for example (I know in this gentleman's case it is part of the https://www.britishrailwayphotographs.com/ web-site). Mr Colin Marsden has his own, but other, more obscure, contributors must have unpublished snaps of interest. I feel another project coming on...

Actually, I think, looking at: https://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/wtt/sregion/sregionindex.php ...it might be Section WB, "SOUTH EASTERN DIVISION - MAIN LINE (via North Kent and Chatham)". Do check before you buy one.

You really do need a Working Time-Table (W.T.T.) for the line (Section WA) in the relevant period to model your service. Can you find one for sale on certain web-sites? If you have never read one before, you are in for a surprise...

Glad to read the last two blog postings, and the draft time-table above. It was a source of constant annoyance when we went on holiday to France in the early 1980's that S.N.C.F. did not copy the Southern's 'clock-face' practice. Anyway, I attach two quick photographs from an early 1970's 'Mandatory' W.T.T. (i.e., Freight), to express a hope for exquisite artisan time-table compositing in this style. Or perhaps not! If someone has the relevant passenger W.T.T., I hope they can post a few pages. I regret I have only the Central Division.

@Compound2632 Thanks for your kind remarks. Yes, the B.W. packs are white, although perhaps they could receive a satin varnish to represent the plastic's gloss, and you are quite correct in voicing concern about the 'end loading' in the Opens. It is the only way I can get them to fill the wagon neatly. The 'narrowest' way lying flat is to have two packs side-by-side giving a scale 'load width' of 32mm., 2 mm. too wide. No wonder they went by lorry. If anyone can shed light on any wagons used 'in reality' for these packs, I would be interested. Some sort of sheeted 'Timber open'-style wagon, with bolsters?

Fair enough. I was acting under the assumption Grove Ferry remained open, as a 'Barnham-style' junction station. This was the example I was trying to remember.

Sorry to make things more boring for the sake of 'realism', and I stand to be corrected, but I think the service would be a simple shuttle to a junction at Grove Ferry and no further, for a change onto the train to Canterbury West. In the late '70's, things were being run down, as the future was the motor-car. The only occasion which springs to my mind (admittedly of limited knowledge) of a branch-line train going onto a larger station as it were is Seaford-Brighton, connecting at Lewes for the Hastings/Eastbourne-Victoria. I am not sure why you would want pl.1 to be used for passengers; please could you elaborate?

Mornin' all. May I just hold my hand up to the confusion about trains through to Ashford and Hastings. This was when I thought the location was inland, half-way on a line of longitude between Faversham and Charing. Now it has been relocated, I defer to everyone's local knowledge, and also admit to being confused by the original railway company initials rather than the lines' main stations, so please forgive any mistakes I make. If pl. 2 is to remain electrified, what is to be done with the loco-hauled Mk. I.s, other than occasional inter-regional portion and Saturday excursions? Also, I would hold out for a commuter service joining at Grove Ferry for lowly-paid plebs unable to afford to live in Canterbury; it is not just London that has commuters. Like the Lymington and Sheerness(?) branches, a one-unit shuttle connecting to a main line. Sure there was something else to add from a previous page, but I have forgotten now. As to Suder's business, think of 'anything in a van'. To increase interest, it would be nice for her/his business to be served by an extra 'Q' (as required) Speedlink train, as presumably the Zanussi warehouse would have a daily block train north to their depot. And personally, I find block trains boring...

Well, I am glad my summary is largely all right. May I still argue for the de-electrification of pl. 2 to allow use of peak-time supplementary commuter loco-hauled stock (as I am not sure for what else it would be used), please, perhaps on a rambling semi-fast route via Canterbury, Ashford, and Maidstone West to Town, or to Hastings (I think this would be far enough for it to terminate, and there were(?) run-round facilities there). Or both (one with the mini-Buffet)! However, it is your railway, I must remind myself...

As we are now on p.4 of the thread, I wonder if we could compose a summary of what we have decided, and Ray Von agrees, please. Sorry to be a 'bear of very little brain', but it is easier gathering one's thoughts and filling in the last gaps (if any). I think we have agreed to Nearholmer's splendid map, and that the run-down diesel service will run from pl. 2 to Canterbury. Or is it electrified? Is the line still open down to Shepherds Well? This line will handle freight: white goods and sundries to the warehouse, fish and shell-fish in N.P.C.C.S. (how about it going back to Town on the Newspaper empties?), M.o.D. traffic, and perhaps imports/exports to the Wharf when some ferry vans are procured. Also agricultural supplies in sacks, like Bartholomew's of Chichester. Pls. 3 & 4 is the whizzy, go-ahead, frequent, electric service to Town. Scrap goods would amble along once a day, occasionally with a waste-oil tank, perhaps returning to the electric arc furnace at Sheerness? Errrrr... have I missed anything? Is Ray Von happy with all this that we have decided for him?

By the time I post this, I will have forgotten what I meant to comment on on p.3 of this thread, but may I just alert all to imports needing ferry-vans, I assume (those IIB Cargowaggons are available), especially if like Paddock Wood, whereas the fleet here is VAAs, VBAs, and VEAs. This suggests a domestic source and destination. I would agree with Nearholmer that Railfreight, to my limited knowledge from too many years trawling any book of photographs (and some not), had no buildings of their own by the late 1970's. It was private enterprises that used existing old buildings (e.g., Fogarty's of Blackburn?) I think. However, could it not be advertising their service?!

The problem with cement/gravel is it would be long block trains, rather than Speedlink wagon-load. However, R.A.F. Manston could see deliveries of 'government stores'. It occurred to me later that shell-fish and boat-catches would be more likely to be sent up 'fast' via N.P.C.C.S., rather than Speedlink, which obviates the need for those cute VEAs. Bother. However, perhaps one could have traffic of bagged cement in or out?

That is the one. "The splendid Fleischmann HO layout featured at the Festival of Model Railways Show in London in the summer of 1977 included a working automatically operated hump yard, built entirely from standard Fleischmann parts." A single hump road gave access to a five-road sorting yard via a King 3-way and 2 points.