MAP66

Looking good and your soldering is a lot neater than mine, I’m building the same over at Tyteford Halte, also in P4. Are you going for the full inside motion? I found it a bit of a challenge but worth the effort. By the way, the main axle horn blocks are nice to assemble and fit, good luck with the rest of the build.

Cheers,

Mark

1 minute ago, longchap said:

I'm only sorry that I hadn't previously assessed the jig when I received it last year, otherwise I could have commented authoritatively much earlier. I actually have two Alan Gibson 0-6-0 kits in the stash, complete with his wheels and motion set-up, so the jig will indeed earn its keep in due course.

 

Crack on Mark, as I'm enjoying your build.

 

Best,

 

Bill

 

Don't be sorry Bill, its all good and I'm looking forward to pressing on (pun intended) with the build. 

9 hours ago, stevel said:

Me think's the screw slot is where the crankpin goes, allowing for different strokes, maybe? just a guess.

Yep, your correct. I had a revelation and lightbulb moment after @longchap post above. Thanks for the comment and my apologies for not understanding, any way, better late than never 😀

1 hour ago, longchap said:

 

It’s tipping down with rain, but I’ve braved it to t’other end of t'courtyard, wrung out the sogginess from one of our longer haired cats and finally got a good look at the GW Models' wheel press and quartering jig and instructions.

 

Mine is exactly the same as yours Mike and is beautifully machined and assembled. It is designed to be used either in the hand or in a vice, the latter would probably be my favoured option, since it leaves one’s hands free for doing everything else. The vice jaws sit under the rebates on the sides of the jig and as one tightens the vice the press being sprung loaded, closes precisely around the chassis to press the wheels onto the axles, together with quartering the cranks to 90deg lead. GWR has the right hand wheels leading by 90deg, while other railways may have done things quite differently.

 

With the wheel placed over each projecting stop, the crank pin sits in the slot. The slot is set at right angles to the axle centre and caters for different crank pin offsets. On the outside face of the jig, there is a tiny recessed grub screw down the hole to set the wheel stop projection.

 

Quoted from Gordon S from RMWeb, July 29, 2010: “It's very easy to use. Each jaw has a reversible sprung loaded pin for either 2mm or 1/8" and 3mm axles. Next to the pin is a slot to take the crankpin and these are preset at 90 degrees. Take one driving wheel and insert the axle just far enough to hold it in place. Chamfering the end of the axle will help insertion. Place the wheel onto the jig and align the crankpin in the adjacent slot. Add the other wheel to the other jaw and align the axle end. One they are all in place, just gently squeeze the two jaws together in your hand. I use a B2B gauge at the same time to prevent squeezing too hard and taking the B2B below your ideal figure.”

 

More back up info:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/19209-gw-models-wheel-press-and-quartering-jig/

 

Best,

 

Bill

Nice one Bill for braving the elements and getting one-self soggy for my sake. The information you supplied from the archived thread has proved invaluable and caused a eureka moment. The sudden realisation that I have been a complete idiot in not understanding the mechanics of this tool is an actual relief. I assumed that the screws inserted into where the crank pins would locate were just screws and that in fact you use the slots of the screw head to locate the crank pin. All makes sense now but I just couldn’t get my head around it and convinced myself that the holes on the opposite face were for locating the crank pins. Very happy now and thanks again. I will need to edit some of the previous posts to remove my previously stupid assumptions 😬

Cheers,

Mark

I’ve finally reached the stage in the build where the body shell is mentioned. As like it or not, chassis and body must become one. Try and fit both together without any modification and it won’t work. I started by preparing the body shell first and the instructions provide a diagram fig 8 to show the cut line required to the side of the smoke box, shown again below for reference...

Didn't make much sense to me, it was the sides of the splashers on the lower body section which also needed to be filed back.

Also, to note that the boiler/smoke box can be detached from the main body as its not glued. Turning the body upside down reveals two lugs at the smoke box end which need to be depressed to release the boiler/smokebox section from the front footplate/buffer beam. Due to the age of the plastic it is more than likely that the lugs will break off (mine did) however, when ready, this can be glued back into position without need of the lugs...

An oblique side view to show what's going on. I removed too much material from the insides of the splashers. Just remove a little at a time with a file and repeatedly check onto the chassis.

Score lines made with scalpel blade, showing what I thought needed to be removed. Turns out it was a bit too much!

So, getting back to the cutting diagram. It didn’t make sense to me, I cut where said and the body still didn’t want to fit. Mmm, scratches head, cup of tea and a mince pie later… I returned to the scene and on closer investigation found the culprit to be the plastic moulded splashers which were preventing the chassis from fitting. Holding the chassis as best I could within the body shell, I marked with a scalpel blade onto the underside of the splashers the material which I thought needed to be removed. In theory, it should be just over 1mm on each side if you’re thinking like me as going from 16.5mm 00 gauge to 18.83mm P4 gauge. It transpires that I was far too enthusiastic on this and removed more material than was necessary. Some carefully placed model filler will now be necessary to fill the gaps. Oh well, its all part of the learning experience and certainly not a show stopper, I will get around it. My advice on this particular stage is ‘little and often’ so file a bit and test fit so you only remove just enough material from the splashers.

Moving on and the resultant splasher surgery leaves a boiler without a bottom section. You now have a void to glimpse the inside motion where before was filled with plastic. So, the bottom profile of the boiler needs to be represented. For this I measured and cut a piece of 0.025mm brass sheet and rolled it by hand using an AA battery as a former for the curve. This made it slightly over size and I then formed the tighter curve required by hand rolling again over the barrel of a micron pen. This resulted in a nice curved section which slid into the underside of the boiler and partly into the smoke box. This was then super glued in place. Later, when I am ready to use the filler, the underside of the boiler will be blended in to the existing curve of the boiler profile...

Getting the underside of the curved boiler profile correct using my improvised tools, consisting of my fingers, an AA battery and a micron pen (other pens and batteries are available)

Looking down the underside of the removable boiler section of the body. Brass formed section glued in place and first layer of filler applied. Another 2 or 3 layers of filler required and then smoothed down to a perfect finish.

Boiler section clipped back in place, filler just visible to underside of boiler which should look acceptable when blended in.

The plastic work was now complete and for the chassis, it was just a case of opening up the slot a bit wider in the rear spacer to allow the plastic lug of the body to fit through and then to file some material off from parts 38 and 39 which are the front and rear supporting ribs. This allows for a snug fit of the chassis to the body. Eventually, I ended up with the body sat onto the chassis at correct height and looking square. It’s not required to be fitted at this stage but when it is the rear of the chassis is secured by a nut and bolt through the rear lug of the plastic body and the front will need another such method installed, which can only be determined at the end of the build after everything else is fitted.

Nearly there.

Finally got there 😁

2 hours ago, stevel said:

Me think's the screw slot is where the crankpin goes, allowing for different strokes, maybe? just a guess.

Yes, I thought this at first, but after consulting the instructions which came with the wheel press it's not the case. Thanks for thinking about it though, much appreciated.

10 hours ago, longchap said:

Ah, an interesting post Mark, containing some good news and then some not so 😲 As I use Markits self centring wheelsets, I've yet to test my GW jig. My square axles also allow the wheels, when finely fettled, to slide easily on the axles by tightening the wheel nuts and safely off again with a wheel puller. So without having the benefit of looking at my own GW jig (in the railway room a very cold and dark walk away), I'm wondering if one could carefully mark and drill new holes on the correct face of the jig? Please forgive me if I'm wrong and I'll kick myself tomorrow when I make it into the railway room.  

 

I understand that the 90deg lead was not universally accepted across railway companies and a range greater than 100deg was not uncommon, so a strict 90deg quartering is not essential, particularly as both sides of the loco cannot be seen at the same time.

 

Bon couage,

 

Bill

 

      

Good morning Bill,

That’s an Idea to re-drill the wheel press,  where the new holes would need to be are where George has put the depth adjustment screws for the wheel pegs. So I would need to drill on the other side of the wheel peg (a job for another day). Never mind, I’m not too worried, just one of those things as I said, one he made on a Friday afternoon. I’m sure your wheel press will be of the correct variety and mines still excellent for pressing the wheels on for now. From reading what others do with wheels, the quartering doesn’t need to be an exacting process as many just line up by looking through the wheel spokes and like you say, only one side of a loco is visible at any one time. Any way, I thought it would be good to share as to why, when it comes to it, my wheel quartering will also be done by eye as opposed to using the jig. 

A few posts ago, we were discussing wheels and the best way to get them onto axles. I did a little research into this and there seems to be a school of thought for fitting the wheels once and once only, any more than that could risk wheel wobble. That being said, I can at least attempt to get a wheel on each axle for now and then try the axle in the bushes, whereby any necessary fettling can be actioned without the need for removing the wheel again. Getting the second wheel on would then come later, as part of the stages of fitting the components for the compensated chassis.

Well, what about the first wheel then? Turns out, I do own a GW Tools wheel press and quartering jig, but I thought it had been thrown out by mistake a couple of years ago when we were clearing out for the house move. I then found it yesterday within a box of other stuff. I brought the wheel press at the same time as the rivet press and its never been used. Then it turned out that my wheel press was made by George on a Friday afternoon as unfortunately the crankpin alignment holes have been drilled into the wrong face of the press (opposite to where they should be). Ah well, I can’t use it as a quartering jig then, but how about for getting the wheels onto the axles? Turns out it can, and it does a good job, and it’s all shown below…

First, you need the wheels and axles - this is the set available from Alan Gibson and recommended for the kit as listed in the instructions. Crank pins are also required and I am again using ones from Alan Gibson  (4M42A).

One of the crank pins temporarily fitted, as you can see the screw head hits the rear of the wheel boss and so some careful counter sinking is required. I will be dealing with this under a later post. The wheel boss/hub could also benefit from a lead chamfer introduced  just to remove  any burr and help ease the axle in. A couple of gentle turns of the 1/8" reamer  will sort this.

This is the wheel press and quartering jig. 

Getting the first wheel on. Make sure you have the front of your wheel facing down onto the face of the press and that you have the correct length axle ready (this is  for P4 gauge). If you have already fitted your crank pin then it locates in the slot to the left of the sprung peg.

The wheel is moved onto the locating peg and then the axle is placed into position with one leading edge just located into the wheel boss and the other end in line with the opposite locating peg. A close visual inspection follows to ensure all is lined up and then, using just finger pressure push both halves of the press together and hey presto one wheel is firmly and squarely attached onto the axle. The press is also designed to be used in a vice but I found that finger pressure was sufficient.

The axle has been lined up and one wheel has already been pressed on. The axle is now shown turned upside down as the pressed on wheel is now at the top. It is set up to show how the lower opposite wheel would now be pressed on. However, that is for later in the build.

One side of driving wheels with axles fitted, all seem to rotate freely but I won't be able to do that incline test, as the second wheels will not be fitted until compensation and gearbox have been fitted. 

View from underside and note the rear horn blocks have been temporarily fitted. They need a bit more fettling as they form part of the compensated chassis set up and so are free to move up and down. It looks like they are also removable unlike the main axle hornblocks. Therefore, I will be able to fit both wheels on the rear axle without fear of needing to pull a wheel off again.

A final image, again showing set up for fitting the second wheel onto an axle. In reality, I would need to have the actual chassis within the wheel press and also the back to back gauge (shown in situ) lined up with the edge of the wheel flanges. Something where an extra pair of hands would certainly be of benefit.

Next post I am doing a bit of body shell hacking and carving to get the body to fit onto the chassis.

I got the paints out today, not the white satin finish for the door frames – had enough of that malarkey. No, I mean the model paints and it makes a nice change. Last bit of model painting I did was for the coach passengers exactly a month ago.

So, I’m hand painting the chassis and the colours of choice are; Vermillion for the inside frames, motion bracket and parts of the valve assemblies and a contrasting gun metal for the valve guides, piston rods and parts of the valve assemblies. Then it’s an initial coat of weathered black for the outside of the frames, sand boxes and axle springs. Finally, some MIG oil and grease mix over the inside motion. Here are the results so far…

Underside view

2 hours ago, JimRead said:

Hello Mark,

 

A couple of things you might find useful; one is a Piercing Saw with some 48 and 32 TPI blades cheap on eBay and Faithfull blades are very good. The other thing is Blue Tack I use it to hold electronic componets in place on PCB's while I solder them.

If you've already got these onboard my apologies.

 

Cheers - Jim

 

[edit] Forgot; the teeth on a piercing saw should face the handle gives much better control and easier starts to a cut.

Thanks again Jim,

That's useful to know, I have a piercing saw but I think the teeth are too coarse or I have the saw blade in the wrong way round, I will need to check.  I never thought of using blue tack. just imagined it wouldn't cope with the heat. I use the spring clamps as sometimes a bit of force is required when holding these components together. By the way, please keep the tips coming when you think of them as they are proving extremely useful.

18 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

That is looking most impressive - where did the brass sandbox and axle castings come from - were they part of the kit or sourced separately? - my 517 kit has white metal versions but I think your brass ones are rather nicer

Andy

Hi Andy,

They are part of the kit, along with the cast rear axle boxes. They do all have really nice detail, just a little more work required than expected to get them fitted correctly.

Out of all the things which potentially could have gone sideways on this build, I didn’t think for a second it would be the cast rear axles and the sand boxes which caused me the most hassle to prepare and fit. The cast fittings are held on a robust sprue, so robust in fact that the central sprue holding the axle boxes is more like a tree trunk. It therefore takes some care and time (lots of time) in my case to release them. I used the sharp edge of a small file, a Dremel might have been a better choice, but I didn’t have the right cutting disc for the job...

That central sprue is a bit of a beast!

The axle boxes have some nice fine detail to them and look the biz when fitted. You do need to find an effective way to hold them in place, without moving, while soldering though. I managed it eventually, using 2 of my spring clamps.

Then it was the sand boxes, front ones not so bad but the rear ones tested me. The unfinished, unseen part which fits up against the side of the mid spacer needed quite a bit of filing down to get it flat. There is also a locating peg on the back of the sand box which locates in the hole of the mid spacer. I couldn’t get it to fit nicely and I found it much better to file the peg off completely which then made it easier to file the back down nice and square.

After all that, I eventually needed 3 clamps to hold it securely in place while soldering. Fortunately, the instructions advised earlier not to solder in the mid-way spacer, so removing it helped, ever so slightly, when fitting the rear sand boxes. So, what really should have been a 10 min job, took all afternoon.

View looking from front

From the rear

The chassis needed a further clean after all that and it has now had a dusting of grey primer. I’m leaving it for 24hrs for paint to fully harden and them I’ll start some of the painting within the frames.

All primed up, axle bushes masked off.

After that, it will be time to do some body shell surgery of the Airfix doner, which is necessary to allow the chassis to fit. Following that, assuming taking the scalpel to the body will result in a success, it will be time to tackle the compensation and at some point those wheels will need to go on.

Detail from the instructions of the body shell prep required for chassis to fit.

1 hour ago, Neal Ball said:

Oh that’s a conundrum- the ones I used on my Metro, were already quartered and simply slotted off.

 

I wonder if @Andy Keane used Gibson wheels and could advise.

4 minutes ago, longchap said:

Ian Rices's book on 4mm Loco Chassis Construction is the Bible here. I will also review my notes on quartering from the Missenden Abbey course to remind me of the methodology. A slightly mystical topic for all new Chassis builders and like Neal, I also used the self quartering wheels sets with the square axles, which make life a little easier.

 

Best,

 

Bill

 

 

Thanks Gents,

In the meantime, I am finding these cast sand boxes a real struggle to fit. My full report to follow later 🤔

2 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

That’s looking very nice @MAP66 have you tried the wheels and the plank of wood yet?

Thanks Neal,

No, I still have that little gem to look forward to. Truth is, there’s a few things that I’m unsure about with the wheels which are the Alan Gibson ones recommended for the kit, I also have the Alan Gibson crank pins. I’m unsure about the best technique for pushing the wheels onto the axles square, as the hornblocks are not removeable from the chassis. Furthermore, how to get the wheels off the axle again?

Well, it was back to the chassis build after a spot of DIY. I spent this afternoon adorning the outside frames with various embellishments as the Mrs might describe them in her crafting world. In reality this amounted to the rear cast axle boxes, front cast sand boxes, 0.4mm wire to represent the feed pipe for the ashpan and for the wash out plug bolt, various rivet strips and finally the front and rear rail guards.

The plan tomorrow, will be to fit the rear sand boxes and then look at preparing the chassis for painting. Here’s how it’s looking at the moment with all those detail bits added...

Impressive wall building skills Rob, Is that grey-board behind the wall a jig of  some sort for the wall? or is it for spacing out the post and wire fencing?

15 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

If it helps, I’ve also set up a “project board” next to the work bench. 

Thanks Neal,

That is a simply brilliant solution which has never occurred to me before. I'm going to use that in one way or another, saves rifling through all those bits of paper.

17 hours ago, longchap said:

Ah, we all know the bind it can be to tear yourself away from a modelling project, right when you're in the groove and things going along swimmingly!  I had been looking forward to spending the day in the railway room today, but discoved that we'd had intruders in overnight, fortunately only rodents, so cleaning up and repair work was the order of the day.

 

 

 

A ‘mouse in the house’, never a good thing. I hope you manage to seal everything up and stop the little blighters from gaining entry. When we lived in London (semi-detached property) our neighbour kept birds, hundreds of them in outside aviaries and he stupidly kept all the bird seed in his house which always attracted the mice. Being semi-detached, the furry little gits had easy access to our house through the attached loft space and under the floors. If it wasn’t the dawn chorus waking you up every morning at silly o’clock (you would need to experience the incessant cooing of Diamond Doves to appreciate this) then instead, it would be chasing furry rodents around the house with a broom.  Either way, not a good experience and just one of the very many reasons why we moved house. Lets get away from mice and back to trains, hope you get back to them soon 🚂 ☺️ 

Thanks Bill,

I looked further ahead in the instructions and there's a little way to go yet before I tackle the gearbox. Before that, there's a few things to solder onto the outside frames first, including the rear cast axle boxes. I'm doing well though as I am now mid-way down page 4 out of 8. I wouldn't be without my Optivisor either, I feel blind without it, when working on the small detailed stuff.

I have left the build alone today for the first time in over a week, very addictive. Some DIY work on the house was overdue so I have been busy painting door frames today. I am also waiting on a few modelling supplies as well, turns out I was out of primer so now waiting on that to arrive. It will be back to the build Mon/Tues hopefully.

Mark.

Thank you Neal.

I'm pretty chuffed I've got this far and have stuck with it. I find its a case of reading the written instructions several times over and studying the diagrams before committing yourself to the next step.  Sounds like such a small thing but unstapling the 8 pages of instructions, and separating the pages, so that you have the main diagram to refer to and the written instruction stage, you are working on, next to each other helps enormously. That quick tip and a good helping of patience has at least got me to here. All I can do is adopt the same approach for the gearbox and motor stages and lets hope it all goes  runs smoothly. 😁

The 2 internal connecting rods are the final items of detail to add for the inside motion which I completed this afternoon. The chassis then received a well-earned bath to get rid of all the flux residue which was starting to build up. This was also a prerequisite for getting the inside of the frames and the inside motion primed ready for painting.

So which colours? Phoenix paints website list signal red, other sources list venetian red. Well, I have Vallejo Vermillion 70.909 so that will be the inside frame colour (well, at least certain parts of it). With oil, grease and grime effects I’m planning to splodge on top, I don’t think the red colour is too critical after all. There will also be some use of gunmetal effect paint. Here is a top and bottom view of all the inside motion detail now completed and before painting.

Persevering with the Poppies chassis box (jig) I found a solution to stop the witness rods from dropping out. I have used collar retainers which tighten onto the witness rods with a grub screw. I couldn’t get a close internal bore size of 3.125mm to suit the witness rods, 4mm was the closest I could find but the grub screws wind down enough to grip the rods and now they don’t fall out and everything is held tight and square...

All nice and secure now with the collars fitted. Good to see that the coupling rods fit as well!

Now it was time to continue with the inside motion, from the above image you can see that I have made a start by already installing the slidebars which basically just slide and push into place with a little levering and manoeuvring with no need for soldering (once you manage to get them in, there not going anywhere). Next on the list to tick off, are the left and right valve gear assemblies. They each consist of an inside and outside drop link and one radius arm. Managed that, just about, a couple of images below…

Assembly is assisted by inserting short lengths of 0.5mm brass rod until the soldering iron is called for.

Both pairs now soldered together and the brass rods snipped off just proud of the etch to represent the pivots.

We end this instalment with a final image of the valve gear assemblies installed within the frames and you will see two short pieces of brass tube cut to 4.5mm long inserted through the motion bracket to represent the valve guides…

The lower 1.0mm brass rod passing between the frames is the reverser shaft and will soon be cut back in length. The upper 0.7mm brass rod is just there for support of the valve gear assemblies and is taken out when all is soldered in place.

59 minutes ago, longchap said:

I concur with Neal regarding the rods. Just be gentle when filing down the edges to get the soldered joint looking like a solid steel rod, as they are still fragile and need support from a suitable vice.

 

Noted Bill, will do and thanks again.

54 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Your question @MAP66 about the connecting rods…. That’s exactly how I did mine!

 

The build is looking good so far. That inside valve gear will look nice…. Can you assemble outside the frames, then pain it before assembling?

Yes, I was wondering about the painting side of things. I will definitely see what can be assembled (if anything) outside of the frames and then get it painted up. A good clean with detergent and a rinse is required first within the bay area, then an etch primer. Followed by some research on colours to use for an authentic look.

Re. the coupling rods, glad I wasn't using a unique technique by tinning the inside faces, going by @longchap input, I think my issue was the soldering temp was too low. I plan to have another go at 450c as I need to feed a little more solder along the edges to lose the laminate cusp edge and then file back.

11 minutes ago, longchap said:

I'm a believer in getting in with loads of heat from the biggest bit practical, then get out quickly. 

 

This often means less burnt fingers and quickly made joints, as the workpiece heats up rapidly. I experimented with the temperature and finally settled on 450deg for etched chassis work.

 

Good job, as  usual Mark.

 

 

 

Thanks for the soldering tip Bill, looks like I will be turning the temp up a notch and see how I get on with that 🧯