MAP66

We continue on and I managed to eventually get all the horn block assemblies into the chassis. 3 went perfectly and the last one, its always the last one, didn’t want to play ball. When it did eventually solder in place it wasn’t quite square. The axle runs through it perfectly well though, the only issue is the bush starts to stick towards the bottom of its travel but I don’t think it will ever be required to go that low within the guide so, hopefully it won’t cause any issues.

The instructions tell you to assemble the coupling rods next, there are 2 laminates for each side and this was another job which I wasn’t sure how to tackle. I eventually decided, rightly or wrongly, to tin the inside faces of each laminate and then attempt to fuse them together by running the soldering iron over the outside face. In conclusion, it probably wasn’t the best method of choice, they don’t look to pretty after my efforts and will require some time cleaning them up. I would be interested to hear how others tackle this.

Next on the list is to start on the inside motion and this will be challenging as there are a lot of fiddly components to manoeuvre into position with brass rods and wires passing through a number of ccomponents to represent valve gear, pistons, guide rods etc. All in all, a lot going on in a tiny space, what fun!!!

Below, we see the challenge ahead, fig 4 illustrates the components which are to be squeezed in. I have aligned my chassis up to that of fig 4 in the instructions for reference.  You may also notice from the last chassis image that the rear outside frames have now been fitted...

Apologies for the dodgy soldering on view, I'm hoping that the standard will improve considerably as the build continues. I thought it might be of interest to show the set up I use, so here it is...

I use an Antex variable temperature soldering station which has a 24V 50W soldering Iron. I have the temperature set to 350C for this build as I like to hear the flux crackle when the tip of the iron comes into contact. Solder is 179 degree but I have some 145 solder for the lost wax castings. I use various types of liquid flux.

5 hours ago, JimRead said:

Hello Mark,

 

Amzing thread you've got going here, fair play to you. I really like the coach and it's people amazing paint jobs you've done there.

 

I hope you don't mind me showing this.

 

I expect your kit had already got HB gaps that are correct. I used card and I'd cut the slots 1/2mm wider and then line them up with these rods and a biro spring. Then glue them in with some araldite and a pin.

 

If you would like a smile please take a look at this, spilling the beans about a cheapo chinese 6 pole motor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfRjo-NQcZw

 

Cheers - Jim

Hello Jim,

Good to hear from you, I'm glad you like the coach detailing. I might drop back on that soon and mix it up a bit between the chassis build and finishing off the coach.

I do like your ingenious solutions using everyday items to solve these types of problems. What your able to achieve with card is a bit special and I have no problem with you showing how you go about it on here ☺️ I might even try a card built chassis one day. The biro spring has got me thinking and a rummage through the pen drawer is required.

Love the video, made me feel hungry for some reason 🤣

8 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Morning Mark,

Im intrigued about those sprung clips - they look as if they are making life easier for you. Where did you get them from?

 

As Bill says above it’s good you are using the Poppys jig, I’m glad it’s working for you. 
 

Did the kit not come with screw in frame spacers? I found using them made the Metro build a bit easier.

 

Keep going, I am enjoying your build. Thank you.

Hi Neal,

I checked back to where I got those clips from https://uk.robotshop.com/  but unfortunately it looks like they're no longer part of their product range. I had a quick internet search and there are similar products available such as these  https://www.retroamplis.com/Spring-loaded-clip-on-aluminum-heat-sinks

I think have a look around for a UK stockist if possible, I think I paid around £6 for a pair 3 years ago. They are actually designed to be heat sinks clips but I find that they are ideal for clamping parts together for soldering purposes. Definitely recommend them for hornblock work.

The Poppy chassis box came with 3 witness axles/rods and six blue plastic grips which push onto the rods and are meant to hold them in place. However, they are not very good and I have mislaid them anyway. I will need to think of another solution to prevent the rods from moving, probably more clips of some sort.

21 minutes ago, longchap said:

I’m impressed with the apparent ease in which your chassis is coming together Mark, particularly with using hornblocks, which I have yet master, at least the HL fold up variety! Good to see you made good use of Poppy’s chassis box as well.

 

As you’re building in P4 gauge, will you be installing the full internal motion?

 

Thanks Bill,

I think the not rushing approach is paying off, plus the chassis gods must be looking favourably upon me. If I can get the chassis set up true then I will be more than happy. I think the Poppies chassis box has its use, you just have to  think 'outside of the box' 🤔

Yes, this is a P4 build and I'm going to attempt full motion. Its going to be fiddly and time consuming but It should look pretty amazing if I can manage to cram it all in, at least I'll have a bit more space between the frames than the OO modellers.

Thanks to @Neal Ball I was a little more confident in testing the axle fit within the brass bushes. Some careful use of a 1/8” reaming tool resulted in a nice fit. I returned to the hornblock assemblies and found that with some careful tweaking of the horn cheeks to make them slightly more than 90˚ to the perpendicular resulted in curing the tight fit. The brass axle bushes all now slide up and down within their respective carriers.

There was just a bit more of prep work required, for the 2 hornblocks supporting the driven (middle axle). You are advised to file off the collar of the brass bush to allow clearance the gearbox to fit. For the hornblocks supporting the front axle you need to file down the carriers as shown on the instructions to allow fitting up against the front spacer. Both these tasks were carefully completed and finally as advised in the instructions a tiny amount of model oil was applied to the brass bushes to avoid them being soldered in place.

Now it was starting to get interesting as the next job was to solder the hornblocks into the frame!

You start with the driven (middle axle) and I spent some time devising a practical way to clamp the hornblock into its correct position before tacking in place along the top edge. This is what I came up with…

Top of hornblock assembly clamped tight to side frame on top edge ready for tacking

View from other side.

It was then a case of clamping again while soldering along the 2 sides. Then hold your breath while you gingerly poke the axle bush to see if you have accidently soldered it stuck. Phew! No, I haven’t, it still slides nicely. Recompose yourself and repeat the procedure for the opposite side.

Before that though, I thought about how everything was going to square up or not as the case might be. As I had the Poppies chassis jig, I decided to give it a go as I wanted to know if the opposite hornblock would line up OK. Due to the chassis side frames having an outward projecting frame spacer I was not able to use the jigs centre reference hole to line up the driving axle hornblocks. Instead I lined them up with the adjustable slots on the jig. That way, I was able to clamp the chassis side frame flat area to the side of the jig keeping it square and then locate the front axle through the jigs centre hole. Confused, hopefully the image below shows what I’m up to…

My unconventional method of setting up the hornblocks, this is still work in progress and still in the trial and error phase.

2 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

1. you will need to run the broach through the bush to give a reasonable fit. If there is any resistance, the wheels won’t run smoothly. (When assembling and putting the loco on the track and lifting the track, the wheels will bind at one point or another)

2. Ive not built horn blocks, but would imagine it’s a similar process. 
 

Hope that helps.

Thanks Neal, that's most helpful ☺️

1 hour ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

A trick I've been taught for small components that can easily ping their way to oblivion is to thread a length of cotton through the centre hole - if they do then ping, they can't get far.

 

Once the relevant operation has deen performed, the thread just pulls out.

 

In my case it was specifically for HO scale Kadee coupler springs, and I must admit it works - as long as I don't lose the spring when threading it!

 

Don't know if it would work for items like the bush you describe, but can't see why not.  Hope it helps, Keith.

That's a good tip Keith which I will keep in mind for the next fiddly so and so. Thanks for sharing.

Assembling the rear wheel carriers consists of 3 components for each set (parts 14, 15 & 16). Each part requires the slightly undersized hole to be opened out to accept a 2mm brass axle bush (included in the kit). My broaches don’t go up to that size, so instead I used a rat tail file. I removed a little material at a time and checked with the bush each time. It’s a bit fiddly and I found that holding the bush as illustrated below with fine nosed tweezers avoided the risk of it being lost to the carpet.

The tweezers hold the axle bush by tension, making it quick and easy to check for fit, without risk of  losing such a small part to the carpet.

The completed rear axle carrier at top (a little cleaning up required) with the individual components and brass bush shown below

Once satisfied that holes were correct, I folded the tab on the front etch as per the instructions and then inserted the middle and rear etches over the tab. After which I checked alignment to ensure the brass axle bush could be inserted through the front and centre etch with it just entering the rear etch about ¾ of the way but not passing all the way through. I then clamped it all together and ran a tiny bit of solder along the bottom edge to hold the 3 laminations together and then ran some solder around the shoulder of the bush to seal it in place. A final check was then undertaken test to see if the carrier still slid in within the cut away in the side frame and thankfully it did. Image of the assemblies below…

Front and back view.

Side on showing location slot.

Having grown a little bit more confident with that success, I thought I would give the 4 hornblock assemblies a go. They are made up with an etched carrier which is folded up as per the clear instructions provided and then you slide in the lovely engineered brass axle bush.  The etched carriers are so designed that when folded together, no soldering is required. A small tab nib holds everything securely in place.

The instructions suggest holding the carrier along the fold line of the horn cheeks with thin nosed pliers. I struggled with this as the carrier was still becoming distorted due to the force required to make the bend. I found it easier to use my sheet metal bending tool which kept the carrier etch flat while I used the edge of a steel rule to force over the bend, this worked a treat, see image below…

Everything clamped flat and more control using this method.

The completed hornblock assemblies but some further fettling still required to obtain a good  sliding fit for the axle bushes?  see question 2 below.

I have also seen elsewhere that it's a good idea to make identification easier for each hornblock assembly while fettling and when final  fitting to the main frames. So  I have marked mine with small blobs of different coloured paint to avoid getting them mixed up.

I now have some novice questions and would be most grateful if anyone out there can help;

1. The 1/8" diameter axle which came with the Alan Gibson wheels (separate to kit) is a very tight fit in the bush and I don't want to force it. Is it standard procedure to use a 1/8" reamer or similar to run through the bush to get the correct axle fit? I assume it needs to be a tightish fit but with no friction so as to allow axle to rotate freely, would that be correct? Also, should any lubricant be used, if so what type/brand of oil?
2. For the hornblock assemblies, what am I aiming for in terms of the fit of the brass axle bush within the carrier. Currently they all slide in but are quite tight, should it be that they could drop out if held vertically or does there need to be a small amount of resistance holding them in place?

Thanks and advanced apologies if question 1 comes across a bit smutty (Oh Matron), didn't know how else to phrase it, any innuendo's keep them to yourself please 😇

Mark

8 hours ago, stevel said:

Enjoying watching this build, as I just received the HL pannier chassis kit, to go under a Saddle tank body I'm going to print. Going with the continuous spring beams, rather than the compensation method for the first time.

Glad your enjoying the build 🙂 Sounds like an Interesting project you have there, I would love to be able to create and print off parts but my tiny brain would never be able to understand the software for creating the files 🤪

Maybe you could post your progress on here, it would be good to see how you tackle the compensation. Its all new to me, but looking at the instructions there are beams involved in this build as well, so could be good to compare notes when getting to that stage. In the meantime, I'm sure you will enjoy the quality of the HL kit and good luck with the build.

Quite addictive this chassis building, once you have taken the plunge. I will probably hit the buffers soon and come to an abrupt stop when it starts to get complicated. Until then I’m taking advantage of the initial easier steps and you re-join me at a critical moment joining the frame sides together.

First step was to remove all the frame spacers from the fret (parts 4 to 8) see below image.

Top row from left to right - (4) front spacer (5) motion bracket  (6)  Midway spacer P4W  

Bottom row  (7) Outside frame spacer P4W  (8) rear spacer P4W

The kit allows you to build a chassis to 00, EM or P4 gauges. Thankfully, and very thoughtfully you have the plan drawing of the actual fret, the parts list and with me building to P4 standards, P4W is also actually stamped into 3 of the frame spacers, more on that later. So little chance of installing the wrong spacer. Even so, I still wrote the numbers in black marker on each part.

Part 4 is the front spacer and it requires bending along the fold lines and the hole opening up to accept a 1mm steel rod (included in kit) I used a broach to open up the hole, before fitting between the frame sides. Thankfully, these parts have location tabs to ensure it’s all lined up to the corresponding slots within the frame sides. It was then just a case of soldering in place.

I then hit a problem, as I next soldered in place part 8 (the rear spacer) which somehow made the chassis go slightly askew at the rear end. There was nothing for it but to de-solder the spacer, file away all the excess solder and give it another go. However, before re-soldering, I slotted in part 6 (the mid-way frame spacer which held the rear end square and this seemed to help when soldering in place the rear spacer again. After overcoming that small dilemma, the rest of the frame spacers went in nicely.

It’s worth noting again that this is a P4 build and the spacers marked P4W (parts 6,7 & 8) place the outer side frames 1mm further apart allowing 0.5mm clearance at each side of the rear wheels. Anyway, here's how it's looking after all that, you will also see that I have also now attached the 4 cosmetic axle springs to the side frames.

In the process of soldering one of the axle springs, while being clamped in place.

Next stage - Assembling the etched rear wheel carriers. 🙂

26 minutes ago, longchap said:

I have a Perseverance chassis for a 14xx and always intended to put it under one of my Airfix models, yet inspiration can be a fickle companion, as due to thse two threads with a 14xx chassis build, plus my high regard for HL products, I'm minded to order a HL chassis with  my next gearbox order.

 

I really must do more work on the kits stash !

 

 

 

 

I would very much encourage you to buy the HL chassis kit based on your own experience, I wouldn't base it on any inspiration from me as half the time I haven't got a clue what I'm doing 🤣 and the other half is pure luck. Seriously though, that sounds like a good shout, maybe a bunch of us will end up building the chassis?

Thanks for the heads up re. the Torre Station thread, I was surprised that there was another 14XX build on the go and even more surprised to see that I was at the same stage of the chassis build as @MPR except I assembled the main frames in a slightly different manner. I also struggled with it and needed to de-solder the end spacer. I'll post more on that next update.

Thanks Bill,

That's all very much appreciated, it is very much slow and steady wins the race. For me it's a case of reading the instructions for every step several times over before plunging in. If I am confused over something, I take a break and think about it and only return when I have an idea of how to do the task in hand.

1 hour ago, longchap said:

you need to work out ingenious ways to support the frame spacers and other small parts when soldering

Funny you mentioned this as its absolutely true. I found myself doing something out of the ordinary with a wooden clothes peg. I hasten to add that I was still fully clothed and the chassis build benefited from the experience 😄

When it comes to the more complex stages of the build, I will undoubtedly be flummoxed and will need some advice on how best to tackle such things. Its very re-assuring to know that help is out there when needed. 

I couldn’t wait any longer, being dissatisfied that it still did not resemble a chassis but instead two pieces of flat metal, I swiftly moved on to the final task required before I could assemble the chassis.

As I was making a compensated chassis, you are required to make the hornblock cutaways which is a task undertaken much more easily with the main frames not assembled. My weapon of choice was a fine fret saw to cut down the centreline of each cutaway and then to bend the tabs back and forth until they snapped off. I then dressed off the edges with a file. Below is the image of the side frames I posted yesterday where you can see the work in progress. The top frame has one hornblock cutaway with the other showing the centre cut line in progress

. The lower frame is yet untouched and shows how it would look if you were fitting a rigid chassis.

So now it's just a case of finishing off the cutaways and then soldering the springs in place. Then it will be chassis assembly time.

3 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

The key with the loco chassis will be to take your time.

I'm OK with that, I only have one gear and that's slow 🤣

9 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Firstly I need to finish off the 2 x 70ft carriages and the cut n shut Hornby Clerestory 3rd.

 

Then I’ve bought a County tank 4-4-2T which will use a SE Finecast etched chassis (High level gear box 60:1)

 

Birthday / Christmas Im hoping for a 70ft Brake 3rd and various Sunshine carriage kits / sides.

 

Then for later in 2024 I’ve just ordered a H26 70ft Restaurant carriage (Comet) and from Worsley works the earlier sides (before the windows were refurbished) and a C22 3rd Clerestory. As I understand it, the latter will be an etch for the sides, ends and roof. I will then need to add bogies and underframe details.

 

That should keep me busy next year!

Blimey, your going to be kept busy next year. At my pace, that lot would take me a lifetime to get through 😄 look how long it's taken me to do one autocoach and that's still not entirely finished. I'm a bit more organised in the workshop area now, so maybe I can get a bit of a spurt on. I would dearly love to get this chassis built and running and then move onto the body shell and finally get the completed 14XX coupled up to the coach and plonked onto Tyteford Halte. That would be a good day 😁

10 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

It’s going to be great, looking forward to watching this develop.

 

Meanwhile, my thoughts are turning to not just the next project - but the one for the end of 2024 😎

 

No pressure!

Thanks Neal,

I hope you enjoy the build, have you tried a High Level kit before?

I'm intrigued about your projects, tell more please. 

3 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Hi Mark, you’re a much braver man than I am, but I look forwards to learning from your build.  Thanks for sharing, and well done for getting started - often the hardest step!  Keith.

Thanks Keith,

yes, I've been putting this off for over 3 years now, with the house move and now having a dedicated room for railways, I finally had no more excuses to delay.

So far so good, but then again I have only got through 2 paragraphs of instructions 🤣 Long way to go yet and it will soon get very, very heavy (Hornblocks) and all sorts to get my head around HO, HO, HO soon be Christmas.

Exciting times, herewith and without further ado, I present for your entertainment the actual start of the chassis build. Strap in, it’s going to be a bumpy ride as I intend to give a blow by blow account of the build, warts an all. This documented approach should serve as a good reference for me, as I’ve never built a chassis kit before and hopefully it will also serve as some use to others as well.

There’s a lot to get through, no less than 8 A4 page sides of written instructions with about 4 pages of very detailed diagrams. Plus, and this is very useful, there is a drawing of the main parts fret with all parts numbered with an accompanying numbered parts list.

Being new to this, I have decided to follow all instructions to the letter and in the same order as written. Let’s begin…

With the main parts fret laid out perfectly flat on a hard surface, using a sturdy craft knife, I removed the main frames (parts 1 &2) from the fret and went about removing any cusps on the edges with a file. Having done this, and referring to fig1, I carefully punched out the rivets onto the main frames using the indentations on the reverse side of the frames as a guide. I accumulated a number of specialist tools a few years back in anticipation for moments like this and it was very satisfying to use the Rivet Press from GW Tools for the first time. It did what it was meant to do and I now have some nice rivet detail, see image below…

The next stage was to release the axle spring backing pieces from the fret (part 3 x 4 sets). They are each folded in half along the etch line to make them thicker and then soldered. I tinned the inside faces before folding and then once folded, I sweated them together. See image below…

You are then required to solder the 4 springs in place on the chassis. Which, as you can see from the above image, will be the next step.

So, that’s it for the first instalment. I will try and update every few days or at least one weekly update. Next post, I will be attempting to assemble the side frames together, which involves several frame spacers and more soldering, could be fun – let’s hope so? 🙂

13 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

 

Good luck with finding "stuff". That is always my issue when I tidy up!

 

The incline test, really tried my patience with the Metro tank and I am sure I will be reliving that again when I build the County tank!

 

Of course, it's two incline tests.... The first just to get the wheels moving, then you need to do it again with the connecting rods attached as well. At first it all works ok, then you need to  increase the incline and you will find the wheels lock up - more gentle fettling soon see's it right.

My word, 2 incline tests! I didn't even know about the first one and now there are 2. Would it be against the rules that even after much fettling with no success, that I then raise the incline to 90 degrees to the horizontal in order to get the chassis moving, gravity assisted (but with wheels still seized?) 🤣

Forgot to mention earlier, but thanks again Neal for providing the link to the small metro builds thread, I'm going to gradually work my way through all the content, picking up all the juicy tips along the way. Me being ever the pessimist (refer to first para above) with occasional optimism, would it be OK to share any achievements I make with this build on the Metro thread?

40 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Happy to help if I can - I have a clock builders jig that I now use to true up my chassis builds which is very rigid and accurate. I think the poppy's jig is not much use at all for accurate work.  But I think if you are going compensated the accuracy is probably less critical as you have to allow some play to allow for the effect the conn rods have when one axle moves and the other does not. Tony Gee says the real test is will the chassis roll down an incline with all wheels turning and the rods going over when the motor drive is removed. Its a stern test but once achieved the result is a very smoothly running loco.

regards

Andy

Thanks Andy, the comment about the side play is very  timely and useful as the kit mentions two types of frame spacers for P4. So I can now use the one which provides 1mm of play (0.5mm each side). When  If I get to a rolling chassis, I will try the incline test 🙂 but if it grinds to a unceremonious halt, I will keep quiet about it.

7 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

It was a combination of both! 
 

But I was struggling to keep the second pin on the jig 100% true - which is when Andy in our Metro build thread, said he had abandoned it!

 

You can get the first axle in line, but then I found the second axle was wobbling around all over the place! It then became a case of using the screw in spacer which I got from Comet / Wizard. I can’t remember if the chassis also came with some - I think they did.

 

If you want to PM me during the build, I’ll be more than happy to offer guidance - although @Andy Keane has just done his second loco building course at Missenden so might be a better bet 😎

 

I have no experience of P4 or Compensated chassis…. 🙁
 

This is the thread we started during our various builds: 

 

Thanks again Neal, sorry about the delay in responding. For the past few hours I have been searching through the remainder of my railway bits and pieces as I'm sure I had another chassis jig from Comet. Finally came across it sitting in my tray on the new bench! So my theory about now being able to find stuff more efficiently has immediately failed. Let's hope the chassis build doesn't suffer the same fate 🤪

2 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

If it’s anything like the SE Finecast Metro tank, it should be straightforward.

 

I see you’ve got the Poppys chassis jig…. I also have one, but found it didn’t make life easy!

 

Getting the chassis 100% square is obviously the key, so resorted to screw in spacers - worked much better!

 

Good luck.

Thanks for the tip on the jig. That's the part I'm most concerned about as this will be a P4 build and so getting it to run true is critical. And just to make life easier for meself, I'm going for the compensated chassis option as opposed to the more straight forward rigid chassis. Out of interest, did you still use the Poppys jig with the screw in spacers, or was this part of another jig?

56 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

That 14xx chassis kit should be a nice build to do. Those instructions / diagram looks very comprehensive. 
 

Good luck and enjoy the build.

 

Plus the Railway room is looking very organised.

Thanks Neal, much appreciated.

I've been looking forward to the day when I could tackle this build, lets hope I don't stuff it up after all that 😄

Well, here we are again and progress is good within the railway room. A lot of sorting has happened and items of interest and extreme usefulness have been recovered, identified, re-categorised and finally stuck somewhere where there is a chance that I will find it again.

Out of the organised chaos, new carpet tiles have been put down and two separate work areas have been created and are ready for use. One will be for plastic and card construction, general modelling and painting. The other will be dedicated to doing train stuff.

So, with all that out of the way, I can finally make a start on the ‘High Level Kits’ 14XX chassis build. Here are some before and after pics of the railway room…

How it was, still with the old carpet.

Ta dah, new carpet tiles down but still more sorting out to do.

View from the other end of the room. That's Tyteford Halte sitting on the bottom of the 3 shelves.

This is where the train stuff will happen. I cut an old internal hollow door in half and turned it into a tool rack by drilling hundreds of 5mm holes at 25mm centres and then brought a pack of cheap hooks to hang the tools from.

Here's a close up of what's happening on the bench. We have the chassis kit laid out showing the main fret (side frames and axle springs already removed) and 3 bags of detailing parts with very, very comprehensive instructions. The motor and gearbox shown in the 2 bags on the right are not included but are available separately. You also need to get the wheels, more detail on that later. 

I was thinking of ways to keep this thread less auto coach and more something else as it has been going on for a bit now. So, in an attempt to shake it up a bit, I have decided to intersperse it by making a start on the 14XX. The auto coach will need to connect up to it eventually anyway and as it’s now almost complete it would be good to set it aside for a bit and fire up the soldering iron instead.

There is also an ulterior motive here, as for this to happen there first needs to be a workshop re-organisation, so that the layout build can continue and this in turn will provide a new separate work bench for loco building. Before and after pics to follow in due course.