hmrspaul

No, we have already had this discussion. There is a BR Herring which is very similar to a Trout see http://paulbartlett..../brrivetherring and if Chrisf asks Craigwelsh nicely he may be able to supply the reference to the drawing which the HMRS has. These names are no more descriptions of a particular wagon than a TOPS code is. The railway simply gave the same names to wagons that had a similar function - in this case capacity. There is also an even lower height version of the Hornby Trout - the Mackerel http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmackerelzmv Paul Bartlett

Although a number of Hornby models appear to have been influenced by my photographs they have never been in contact with me. It looks from their adverts that others have been, who do not have a web prescence. I assume you have looked at Cheona etc. and HMRS, personally I have very few 1950s photographs. Paul Bartlett

Being small they would be handy for a lot of modellers, the GWR and BR ones were used on the Eastern, Scotland and Midland. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brherring http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrherring As to the Hornby Trout, yes very strange that the main livery - BR black has not been reproduced! A very strange company! Paul Bartlett

Craig Are you sure it was a Trout drawing? There are similar Herring - Diag 1/584. Similar in construction but smaller http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brrivetherring These fishkind names are to give guidance on the wagon type, so if two wagons have similar capacity, unloading arrangements etc then they should have the same name. The same concept is used for TOPS coding, which is why the three letter codes are usually not a suitable way of describing a particular wagon.

The official photograph of 163504 says built at Met Camm and quotes two Patents. The BR ones were built by Met Camm. As you will know Leeds Forge was absorbed into Cammell-Laird & CO Ltd in 1923 and the works closed in 1929 with a transfer of work to the Saltley works which was Metropolitan RCW Ltd until 1919 when Vickers acquired the shares, then in 1929 Vickers and Cammell-Laird & Co Ltd merged to form Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. The detail photograph at Hattons appears to have very good likeness of the axleboxes with LNE lettering etc. Early BR ones had these, later they were BR(E) and later still a plain (one bolt head) version was used, as well as occasional 2-piece boxes. They were never numerous, and appear to have mainly been retained on the ex LNER - ER, NER and ScR. The LNER had several batches built at various times, presumably all will be revealed when Wild Swan finally publishes the two remaining volumes in Tatlow's new LNER wagon book series (they have had them for some time!). BR had 113 of diag. 1/580. Paul Bartlett

I think it may be more complicated than that. The SR understood olive green but these photographs of a nearly new Whale, built at Shildon IN 1966-7, appear to show a body colour slightly different to the black laquer of the underframe, but it is very dark http://paulbartlett....7c22d#h1dc7c22d http://paulbartlett....7c22d#h1dc7c22d and other photographs in that collection do suggest they had black bodies.... Olive green wagons do have a noticeable difference between frame and body - although painting the solebar olive green happened. http://paulbartlett....7c22d#h1dc7c22d http://paulbartlett....17f0f#h1de17f0f . But it can be very difficult, I am convinced that the body of this one http://paulbartlett....a7536#h135a7536 is different to the axleguards, and has some green in it, but not very much. However, black does seem to have been used by some works all of the time - the Trout ZFO at Whitemoor in my collection is a good example http://paulbartlett....f78cc7#h5f78cc7 (see what I did there, got back on topic! ) Paul Bartlett PS on LNER colours. There is a Met Camm official available from the HMRS which has a very light colour for the body panels (could be grey, could be blue), axle guards and solebar but the stanchions and axleboxes and springs are all in a contrasting dark colour. The lettering is similar to the Hornby model but EMPTY TO LACKENBY SLAG PLANT and it is for NORTH / EASTERN AREA.

I have already quoted my site, whole series at Crianlarich. Paul Bartlett

I manage a December 86 , but that is nearly 10 years shy of the start of era 9 isn't it? Paul Bartlett

Yes it is. The entire fleet was refurbished and Glorious NSE linked to many. http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UKRailRollingstock/P-Tops-codes/PAA-covered-hoppers/18073359_xGZTQN#1386296180_HGkV8Qw I remember seeing them regularly like this, but have not bothered to go to Doncaster (not very far from York!) to photograph them! Paul Bartlett

It is difficult to judge from the photographs, it doesn't look too bad for olive green. I think the main problem is that finding coloured photographs in that livery is, perhaps, difficult. I don't have any http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/troutzfo http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerballasthop The one that has been repainted (in 1980) is black. I like the way Hornby have left (or given) a black ground to the lettering panel which might be from a prototype. What I find stranger is the suggestion they may be suitable for era 9 - does anyone have evidence they lasted so long? Paul Bartlett

I remain interested in knowing whether you found these photographs of use

Yes, I agree I was incorrect and they were almost certainly painted. When newly converted as a box open they were grey http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/rlsaggregatepma/h158bf06a#h158bf06a (this is the same wagon 6303) but what the top coat was once as PRA I don't know. Greys of all types are nearly as elusive as reds and browns. I agree that http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/chinaclaypra/h9eb7eda#h9eb7eda does not appear grey, but most of mine do, and colours are influenced by the time of day of the sunshine. Paul Bartlett

I must admit I thought they were unpainted galvanised steel. They then get a mix of china clay and brake/road dust. Look at Huw's photograph and remember the hood is red! Paul Bartlett

Hundreds on my zenfolio site - http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brbrakevan As others have said none were built for the engineers, so all were later transfers. Paul Bartlett

Dear Anonymous I would be interested to know if you have found these photographs of any use. You have no name or contact details on your profile. I was only attempting to be helpful. Paul Bartlett

A few photographs from the later 1980s are in this collection http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brtpo Paul Bartlett

Dear Anonymous Here we go, a selection of photographs from the period you are interested in (and earlier). http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bispaa and http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/class31 Paul Bartlett

Mark Yes like me, not been near the top of my scanning list either. The concept that "not easily found on the internet" equals "These must be the least photographed wagons ever" is well - annoying or just amusing? I know of people who have visited Middleton Towers, and there will be multiple photos of these - I didn't do them so well, so only have a couple of dozen. What is not realised is that before digital photography, photography was expensive and also it takes time to scan and label each individual pre digital photograph, and major collections are not being released as anything other than books. Paul Bartlett

The coach is a conversion for use in break down trains, there were a number of similar conversions, from LNER coaches, such as http://paulbartlett....48fc9#h2a048fc9 Interesting series of photographs. Paul Bartlett

The few photographs I took of these after 1987 (1990, 1992) show them being repainted into plain white without any special branding. I saw the WBB repaints many times as I passed up and down the ECML but never managed to photograph them. But these came later. Paul Bartlett

Looks good to me. Those photos from Tim Horn are earlier, and appear to be as the originals I linked to. His other link is later and the design has altered. Paul Bartlett

Mick Well spotted. Does this mean there are three different designs operating now or were the early ones I photographed rebuilt? What was the number range of the design that Dapol have modelled? I'm just glad I don't model these new fangled gizmos

Jeremy But, what is the length of this body? All Gunpowder were 16ft. 6in. over headstocks (or less for early ones) Until the final BR batch they were also on 9ft. wheelbase (Not Dapols 9ft 6in - although they may well be being honest!). The final BR ones were on a clasp brake underframe with 10ft wheelbase - but the length did not increase http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=Gunpowder Paul Bartlett

I agree that this batch - 2868 appear to be roller bearing with side web spindle buffers. They are in http://paulbartlett....m/brbrakevan506 The ones I have are consistently lacking brake pipes and are unfitted. Several, such as http://PaulBartlett....an506/e3a66ade5 show that there was a V hanger for a brake cylinder. Many are also in freight stock red - perhaps too many to have been unfitted and repainted in the period after c1965 when there was only one colour for BR wagons. We should also recollect that BR was building wagons - such as some minerals and tipplers - with the internal V hangers for brake cylinders, but without vacuum cylinders or other rigging. Some of the tipplers were retrospectively Vacuum braked later in their lives. Paul Bartlett

The Gunpowder photographs are in several collections, as pre-Nationalisation ones survived for a long time. This should work to find 4 collections, http://paulbartlett....om/?q=Gunpowder (if not use the search function for Gunpowder). I looks like the odd LNER one got lost in the Fotopic debacle! The Vacuum braked ones lasted until 1983, I remember seeing an LMS one in the M28xxxx number series about 1980 - so quite old! Tywyn was a good place to see them, there were about 5 in the train I photographed (badly) in 1970. They are useful vehicles as individual vans turned up anywhere that there was blasting/mining - so Truro and Aberdare had some when I passed through. As mentioned long wheel base Air braked vans replaced a lot of them - stick on Diamonds and gas masks indicate this use. However, the main replacements were VEA because many MoD sites could not cope with the long wb vans. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/vea I had a chat with a railway person at Bridgwater about the care that had to be taken to clean out these vans, checking for any raised nails etc. Bridgwater was a remarkable small yard, with munitions, nuclear flasks and unusual ferry chemical tanks (for Courtaulds - British Cellophane) right in the town! Paul Bartlett