Pennine MC

Nice find. I think the fact that they're grouped together, rather than mixed in randomly, suggests they're still unfitted and that they're at the rear of the rake - there dont seem to be any more wagons to the left. Just Hornby's marketing, as far as I can see It would make sense though, given their operational similarity with Dogfish. On the subject of conversion to Herring/Mackerel, once the hopper itself was cut down, none of those dimensions would be more than a foot out and the wheelbase is only 6". To someone who (for instance) could accept the foot overlength of the Bachmann cattle van, it would still catch the character if done carefully.

I dont see that as an acceptable reason I'm afraid. On occasion in my own job I have to acknowledge receipt of a potential complaint/error, whilst also remaining non-committal until it's looked into properly. Taking a similar tack shouldnt be a problem to a professional company like Hornby; OK, I'm not saying they should do it for every little whinge, but this situation is pretty clearly a significant one.

Probably because you didnt say you had.

Given the amount of work Paul has already put into publishing his photos, you could always have a wee look yourself : http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/troutzfo http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerballasthop

I'd agree with that, numbered or bulleted points do make for ease of absorption of multiple complex issues.

Picked mine up today, like Chard I've gone for the N E one as it'll make a better basis for rusty black (and I didnt actually realise til a mate asked me, but Hornby have very peculiarly not done this model in a livery suitable for any part of the BR steam and transition period ). I thought I'd identified more sloppy handrail issues, but it's not as bad as I thought - looking at pics on Paul's site, those on the prototype do have a distinctly contorted shape to them and TBF, they've done a pretty good job reproducing it. And they are wire, not plastic, so the odd less than perfect 90 degree bend should ease out with care. It's a very pleasing model IMO, about the only significant criticism I can make is that the 'valley' of the distinctive reversed stanchions doesnt look deep enough. It's effectively level with the main body panels whereas it should probably go slightly past it, but again TBF I'd imagine that would have made it very difficult to mould. I'd also give them a few extra marks for painting the interior and ballast chutes in a pseudo-rust shade - not mega-convincing, but a good basis for further work. I dont think it's been mentioned yet but Vol 1 of Essery's 'LMS Wagons' reveals that the LMS also had 20 built by Leeds Forge, though only one running number was known to the author

I would agree that that is a very significant issue. It exemplifies the poor engineering inherent in the assorted running issues, and hence is very relevant to the 'fitness for purpose' angle

Isnt it always Paul I have to admit that that was intended to be a glib generalisation; the matter of the apparently black Whales (and Sealion/Seacow) is something we've discussed before Joking aside, the significance isnt lost on me - it's fairly evident that the SR was pretty keen (compared to other Regions) on repainting dropside ballast wagons and even humble ex-traffic spoil carriers.

My impression is that only the Southern used it to any great extent in the '60s - I dont think it was so much that the other Regions continued with black, more that they just didnt repaint stuff

If I was dependent on a 4mm scale B1 to get me to work, do the shopping, go to the tip and all the other indispensible aspects of modern life, I might think that a valid comparison. But thankfully I'm not. In any case, I'd think that obtaining spares for cars as old as some of these B1s are nowadays is no easy task either.

The Hattons ones are up now, such as they are.

Hmmm. Curious what sort of response you'd think appropriate in the case of the VEP, Nigel? The 31 chassis problem is clearly a manufacturing defect; these things do happen and as with the Heljan Clayton motors, it's a 'single issue' complaint that's fairly easily remedied by replacement of the affected parts. Now do tell me if I'm losing perspective here, but with the catalogue of problems with the VEP, it seems to me it's a case of 'um, where do we start'. The majority of the complaints seem to come down to assorted aspects of poor design, things that could surely have been avoided but would only really be curable by retooling from the ground up

Not BR builds, because they werent built for that use and wouldnt have passed into it whilst that livery was current. The earliest to do so would probably have been in the late 60s, they'd have either kept their traffic livery or possibly received olive green if on the SR

Just the one Coach (5701), though a couple (I think) got GFYE Oh, why didnt you tell me. You've ruined my plans for modelling the RTC in 3mm now

Steve Jones had a phrase for that sort of thinking SAC and myself have already dealt with the point that nobody expects perfection, but after 20-odd pages this thread is obviously approaching the circular stage on that particular issue. I think they're still around Simon, there are a lot of modellers who see modern RTR as something between a 90% basis and blank canvas to produce the model they want. Something that - very important point - will save them time that can be put to use somewhere else, such as making the things that are less likely to come out of boxes. If I were modelling WCML, I'd probably buy Heljan 86s. If I were modelling SR EMUs, I'd probably buy VEPs. In each case, that would be because they're the best available RTR and despite their flaws, they would save time over the alternatives. But that's the point - they are *flawed*, not just slightly short of perfect. They would cost a lot of time in workarounds, and would still have certain shortcomings that would have to be lived with. For a more casual purchase though, the likelihood of a model joining the 'must sort that out someday' pile would be enough to make me keep my hand in my pocket.

I think there's a fair consensus now that Hornby have followed behind Bachmann in wanting a slice of the EMU pie, once the market was proven; whether they've given it their best shot is quite another matter, but I do think it's a bit silly to suggest it as evidence that they're not interested in the D&E market.

Having had a few Airfix ones, they vary. If you get a good one, they can be very good runners. I like the body shape but I wouldnt call it 'crisp', certainly not next to a Lima one. TBH and all things considered, I think the 31 may just be shaping up to be one of those classes that still needs a 'future proof' model. IMO all are acceptable bodywise, but none is spot on.

Interesting isnt it. Possibly it's because a number of other shortcomings had come to light, before the height issue was even considered? I'm not saying it's a particularly objective way to go about things, but it's an understandable thought path to follow, once you've been put into that mindset of looking for faults.

Can I bring a 26 in here, on account of it's interesting? 26046 with thick-grommetted 27 pattern windscreens, but pre-refurb: http://www.flickr.co...157624412538230 From John Turner's Flickr site, well worth a look (and not just for the shots of mine he's got in there)

I'm sorry, but I think a point is being missed here quite significantly, and I am also sensing a lot of hostility this evening to anyone with so much as a whiff of negativity about the model in question, which is unwarranted as all of the points raised are valid. Aye, and I think the P4 comment is particularly unwarranted, we all know where that one usually goes

With due respect Roger, I dont think that's a decision that you (or I for that matter) should be making, and it doesnt follow that people expect perfection just because they're being critical. This isnt a model I particularly want but from that detached viewpoint, it's obvious to me that these are not just carping points, it's some considerable way from being perfect. If I *was* interested in a VEP, I'd be grateful for the observations of those who know the units, in order that I could make an informed choice as to whether I could live with the problems or do something to sort them myself. If those people were to withold their knowledge at your behest, they'd be artificially restricting my ability to make that choice, and as a principle, I dont personally think that's a good thing.

Thanks for those Stephen, I think that side-by-side shows just how closely matched the two models are (and there's a comparison of a couple of nice inoffensive brown ones on Windcutter, for anyone distracted by all that yellow ) I do like the finesse of the extra brake pipes, the olive one has something similar.

Lukewarm about most of them but the one that does annoy me is the 'National Accident Helpline', whose name has no doubt been chosen to subliminally suggest that it's in some way a Governmental body or Govt-approved

Requoting somebody's opinion twice doesnt make it carry any more weight Seriously, expensive compared to what? A Bachmann suburban - an older model without flush glazing - or a kit - which as Coach has said, post #27 - will set you back roughly the same amount before you get near it with any tools or paints? I'm genuinely interested to know on what grounds folk make these comparisons; I'm one of the first to criticise Hornby for excessive or inconsistent pricing but bearing in mind the economy in general (and the sky high prices that the Gresley corridors are now at), I dont think these are too bad.

There might be patterns to be discerned (as Chard has done), and the Rails case is indeed interesting. Exclusivity isnt necessarily for ever, but as has been said before (with CoT and just about every other similar model), there's no laid down 'norm', it will depend on individual contracts. As for this specific instance, I think you have to look at the risk assessment. My own feeling is that if Hattons have wobbled on doing the wrapround screens as part of their own LE, then it won't be any more viable as a general release.