57xx

Here's the results. Ortho: Pan:

I think your chart there is showing quite a bit of "red sensitivity", so not orthochromatic. The reds on the 2nd row should be coming out very dark.

The dark buffer beam does suggest an orthographic rendition of the reds, although if you are selecting blue channel only, does that mean it is more like the even earlier blue sensitive bromide films? I've amended my initial post due to usage of bad terminology, I'm not using filters, I'm using adjustment layers. The numbered layers are the pictures I pasted in that get processed by the upper layers. I'll pop your colour chart into my template to see what results that gives.

I suppose there is also a difference in trying to get a general sense of colour renditions vs trying to perfectly replicate an old photo as with the Iron Duke.

Here's what I've been working to as references: The top row is from a commercial Photoshop plugin. The bottom two pics are my interpretations. I've still not got the greens quite right on the ortho, but every time I try and lighten darker areas, the lighter bits wash out. Still getting the hang of the hue/saturation layer!

Also not how much darker the cart in the foreground is than the wagons. Here are your other 2 pics. In the bottom pic, we can see some of the shortcomings of the filter. I would expect the sky to be whiter, I could make it so blue/cyan appears paler but then it would throw off my reference pic. It's possible my reference is showing a more modern orthographic film that isn't as sensitive to blue as older emulsions were. Some of the information I found did suggest the earliest emulsions were very blue sensitive, hence why Nick's period picture shows a blown out sky.

This is proving to be quite a challenge (not a bad thing!). By adding film grain, I lose the blown out appearance of the sky. It appears to be a bit tricky getting that over exposed sky just right, even bleaching out the blues so no clouds appear. I can still just see the clouds on the Iron Duke pic. You sample period picture really captures the elements we are after well. I'm wondering if the buildings haziness is also in part down to the over exposed sky bleeding across? Not sure if that is even "a thing" that happens on the old film. Certainly the more distant objects have that colour fade with distance effect from the atmosphere. There is a lot going on in the reference pic that will take some thought to replicate.

Here's a quick rendition of your first pic. I think I need another tweak on the hue/saturation. Looking at my calibration pics, things seem to have wandered from where I had them originally! I've done a bit of softer focus and taken off the film grain layers, that seems to be giving some odd results, so I need a better way of doing it.

I think the blue should be fairly easy to show, although blue response is one of those things where there was a lot of conflicting info. What are you looking for in the titanium white vs lead white?

Its the film grain overlay that's darkened the sky in combination with what is probably a touch too little blue sensitivity still. I will tweak more and report back!

With added film grain and taken the edge off the focus.

Here is the Iron Duke in Ortho:

There will definitely be aspects other than monochrome conversion we need to consider. I did do something on replicating film grain, I will have to look at that again. We can have a play with these other aspects too.

Here we go! Experiments in monochrone

The topic of colours in old monochrome pictures often crops up in threads, most recently in the D299 Appreciation thread. On suggestion by @magmouse, I'm opening this thread so we do not to go too far off topic and clutter up the D299 one (or any other for that matter!) A few years back I had a dabble in Photoshop using adjustment layers to try and replicate orthographic emulsions that were prevalent in the early 1900s rather than just hitting that "Convert to greyscale" button. I dabbled and then it gathered dust until recently when the topic of old monochrome pics and what originals colours in the pics may have or may not have been cropped up several times. So I dug out my old templates had a play and then realised - I could do better. So after several weeks of researching, I found the original info I had based my filters on was wrong. I found better (and sometimes contradictory) information to try and simulate the old plates. After digesting all the info, filtering out the misconceptions and making some educated decisions, I came up with a new orthochromatic template and one for early panchromatic plates. You could just go and buy pre-canned Photoshop filters, but where's the fun in that. Here's a starter for 10 - a pic of two of my kit built wagons, put through the two monochrome templates: I'll dig out some of the original pics I used for calibration to show my methodology. I'm not claiming the filters are 100% accurate, different companies plates/emulsions varied in the results you see and this is just my best attempt at a simulation. I've also got some other pics (not filed very well) that show just how confusing colour interpretation can be. Post a pic and I'll run though the templates!

Shall we re-convene over on Home->Modelling Zone->Special Interests->Photography ?

Absolutely, there is also a probability that it could well be dark grey/black. Unless time travel is invented or some corroborating evidence one way or another comes up, all we can do is made educated guesses based on the information we have.

Here's a pic comparing Ortho (top), panchromatic (middle) and the original colour image. With your permission, I'd like to post one of your blog pics with and without filters applied?

I like your careful choice of words. I would say, on the assumption orthochromatic plate/film stock was used, then yes there is a probability it could have been red oxide.

I completey missed this in the press, very sad news. RIP Sinead, Nothing compares 2 U.

I've done samples on a fe threads, most recently I'm sure it was actually on magmouse's blog. Some of his pics provided excellent source material to demo the results. I will dig them out this evening when back home to share.

Given the tutorlng you have given me on trying to get better wagon pics over on your thread, more than happy to.

Not just probably, you can. I've set up a few template files which replicate various versions of ortho film and panchromatic. They use a curve layer to give characteristic contrast curves, a general brightness layer for tweaking overall exposure and the secret sauce, using the hue/saturation layer for getting the right spectral response and desaturating the image.

Sounds great to me, does this mean lazy BBC journalist won't be able to pad out stories with endless banal quotes off there?

I've been catching up on past issues I've not read. I was pleasantly surprised to click on the video link and up pops Hythe Pier! The ferry was my main mode of transport to Southampton as a teen (and also when younger with my dad) and I rode the train many a time. There's always been a soft spot in my heart for it. Good to see it is still going and that the pier has been saved (last I heard earlier in the year was about it closing0, and lets hope no more drunken dredger captains run in to it!