pauliebanger

Correct, that's why, when it runs, it now usually departs from Dduallt, below the Deviation. I should, of course, have said 'was built', as I was referencing the speed of the historical operation described by The Johnster in his post. My mistake. i would imagine that the continous gradient was actually 'lost' when the Tanygrisiau reservoir created for the powerstation blocked then flooded the existing line just below Baenau FFestiniog. The building of the Deveation, being the engineering solution selected to circumvent the obstruction, was a much later event. Best regards, Paul

I've had the privilege to ride the gravity train in recent times and in excellent weather, too, thankfully. Still uses a bugle as AWD but now the brake operators are concentrated towards the front of the formation. Given that the line is built with a continuous gradient down from Blaenau Ffestiniog, high speed would have been possible but the tight curves on much of the route would have been an inhibiting factor (I hope). The FR's modern day max speed is 20 mph. Whilst it certainly felt much faster being so close to the ground and to the sides of cutttings it would probably been around 20mph and that was fast enough for me! i could be more sure of the speed if I had timed the run over the known distance from Dduallt to Minffordd but I was so excited I almost forgot to press 'Record' on my equipment, let alone look at my watch. LOL. I agree, a motorised sound fitted gravity train would be cool, but sadly, rather too niche. (and before anyone says otherwise, there's plenty of noise to capture. It might not have motive power, on the way down, but the gravity train is far from silent). Best regards, Paul

Wednesday 3rd November 10.00am

DC only, no decoder, model will operate as you can expect on DC, plus some lighting will be functional of which some may be switched off manually with hardware micro switches. No sound other than that generated by the model and its movement. DCC non-sound decoder fitted, as above when running on DC (controlling voltages similar to that of sound decoders listed below) when on DCC additional functionality wil be available, such as manual braking (if included and activated) control of fans and so on. DCC sound decoder fitted: On DCC, the full DCC sound experience. I can't advise on this particular model's DC abiities, but since Bachmann now promote their models as 'sound fitted' instead of 'DCC sound' there will be as much functionality as possible made available to DC users. In general, you can expect as you gently increase voltage to get some lighting as standard (around 3-4V), some of which may be able to be switched off with hardware micro switches, followed by engine start-up, (circa 5v) the motor will not be energised at this point, so the engine sound will be at idle. Further increase in volts will cause the engine sound to ramp up and the model to move. The project may be set up to allow some other sounds (brake release, start horn) to play before the loco moves (so called start delay). After this the model will move and the engine sound swill transition up or down according to the project settings. Reduce volts to slow the model and the engine sounds will spool down. the movement and sounds and lights on thresholds will be at different (lower) voltage thresholds so it should be possible to reduce road speed to zero (volts around 5v) and have the loco standing with engine idling again. In addition, there will be automatically generated sounds - brake release sounds and brake squeal. There may also be some Randomy Generated sounds, compressor, fans (which may also trigger the fans to operate simultaneously) exhauster and maybe others. What you will not be able to control is any feature or sound which requires manual input, for the pretty obvious reason that on DC there's normally no access to operating buttons to do so. Whilst there will not be the full 'DCC experience' you will be likely to hear a large proportion of the sounds and the starting and slow speed contol will be as good as the corresponding DCC control. You'll need to make your own mind up regarding the relative values of each of the above options. Best regards, Paul

I was refering to gimmicky sounds, not essential functions, so there's no difference between us on this. However, depending upon whether the manufacturer provides physically separate wiring to each LED which needs to be separately controlled, assigning functions to F keys is just a question of mapping. If sounds are excluded from projects, it's currently impossible for any to be added by end users without a complete reblow. So, looking from someone elses perspective, it might be preferable to have sounds loaded and assigned for use 'out of the box'. Those who require accesss to alternative lighting arrays can easilly fix that with a bit of programming. Some sound projects are in circulation where there are sounds loaded to the decoder but not assigned/used in the 'default' sound project. e.g. My Class 08 for ZIMO and Legomanbiffo's Class 08 each have the option to select between wooden or metal doors, and choice of whistle or horn. There are much more economical ways to assign lighting functions to models than using one F key for each LED in an array. Subject to the model's wiring arrangements, it would be possible to arrange control of all 10 functions on the Hatton's Class 66 in any possible prototypical array using a single F key plus a single CV change. Granted that this may not be quite as convenient as having individual F keys, but it 'saves' 9 keys for other uses - maybe something others would prefer - and ensures that the correct lamps are illuminated. (user does not forget to switch one or other on or off). Whether prototypical lighting is more likely to add more realism than prototypical sounds will depend on an individual's point of view and the era modelled. In green diesel days, tail lighting was provided by oil lamps fitted to the lamp brackets (usually depicted on the models). The body mounted electric red lights were not to be used. Until comparatively recently, any lighting was used only in the case of poor visibility - fog, driving rain or snow, darkness . How many layouts representing earlier times are operated with the prototypical environmental conditions where the use of lights at all would be prototypical? I've no idea nor any evidence to support any assertion, so I will not do so. Turning cab lights on or off automatically is neat trick, available on ESU and ZIMO decoders, but it's not prototypical - it's modellers' licence for convenience. Whilst it's true that the forward cab light would not normally be illuminated when moving, in reality it would more often be extinguished well before the loco is moved, to allow the driver's eyes to adjust. Also, they were quite often left switched on when moving about on shed. On the other hand unless there's a particular need, the cab light would not be switched on each time the loco comes to a halt, for the same 'night vision' reasons. So, whilst a useful trick on a model, it's hard to see how this could be described as 'realistic'. Point is - there are lots of different viewpoints. Manufacturers take account of as many as possible for the model to be successful, but there's probably always going to be room for optimisation for individual users' needs. Fortunately, in a model world where most are happy to ignore the incorrectly sized and spaced sleepers holding rails of incorrect profile and height to form track far too narrow to be realistic, there's room for all viewpoints. LOL Best regards, Paul

I'm with Roy on this. Sound projects need to include options for all types of users. If you don't need door slams, don't use that feature. But we should not restrict the options for someone else for whom the sound is an integral part of 'getting into' a loco and driving it. As far as I can tell, all the important functions and main sounds like engine, brakes compressors and fans are included in most sound projects, other lesser or niche features and sounds are only then added subject to the amount of unused memory remaining and the number of F keys unused. There are quite a few projects extant for ESU and ZIMO decoders which already have multiple features* operated by a single F key. In these, the actual total of sounds/functions exceeds the number of physical F keys so that's not always a hard and fast limit. Rarely will the decoder or sound project restrict what can be achieved. *Usually, some other function or characteristic will automatically make the selection. I would be very surprised if any sound project creator would include what some may see as gimmicky features in preference to the essential components. But, although decoders are capable of much more in the way of lighting control than is usually presented, they are restricted to what the basic model design allows. It's also important to remember that the models' design must first and foremost operate satisfactorilly on analogue DC, so this is the base from which all is built. Creative DIY and after market solutions are available for those who wish to expand this, but usually this requires modification or replacement of the original PCBs. The number of such modified models probably indicates the degree of 'user dissatisfaction' with what the manufacturers provide. e.g. if you only wish for one Illuminated tail lamp on your SLW Class 24, slip a bit of opaque material inside the body to cover the 'not to be operated' LED. This simple solution is far easier than it would be to add a 'missing' LED for running in the more modern era. Best regards, Paul

The fixed ZIMO repair fee I mentioned is £18 for any age decoder*. Some dealers that you can choose add an admin charge, other, much longer established ZIMO dealers don't. As usual, select your initial supplier carefully. *there's no time limit provided correct replacement components are still available. For balance, I checked out ESU's scale of charges from the link helpfully provided by Keith, Going Underground, copied below. https://www.esu.eu/en/support/warranty-repair/reparaturen/servicepauschalen/austauschpauschalen/ The equivalent repair fee for ESU Loksound 5 is 45 Euros. Except that it is not really that equivalent to the ZIMO UK offering. To the ESU fee quoted you must add postage both ways, (because SWD will not handle your repair), risk tax and or customs and post office handling charges (because SWD will not handle your repair) and even then it only applies to decoders out of warranty with dated purchase receipt which are less than thee years old. This service specifically excludes decoders installed by model manufacturers ex-factory. So that's a bit crap, too, wouldn't you agree? Best regards, Paul

You make an excellent point regarding the potential problems with cross border returns. These things are happening on a regular basis. Brexit should not affect how your in warranty Class 90 decoder would be dealt with now. But, for repairs out of warranty, the position is that manufacturer repairs in the case of both ESU and ZIMO are currently only possible at their respective 'home' base, Vienna in the case of ZIMO, and Germany in the case of ESU. Any business which imports goods from the EU will be in a much better position to navigate accurately through the red tape nightmare which arises from Brexit than the majority of 'end users', so they should use that expertise to smooth the way for their customers. Providing a safe and secure pathway so that items for repair (which should be tax and customs duty free anyway) can cross borders without onerous additional costs is the least you should expect from businesses dealing in such high cost items. It's probably reasonable to expect that such businesses wiill hold onto items for repair until there are enough to reduce postage charges per item. The ZIMO scheme allows an end user to avoid the pitfalls you mention and to immediately receive a new decoder on payment of the fixed charge, thereby also avoiding the possible lengthy turn around delays. A UK repair shop may be the best solution, but would it be cost effective? I've no idea. Best regards, Paul

Keith, With such excellent back-up from ZIMO, it's only natural that I would want to share that info with others who may benefit. LOL. Best regards, Paul

Keith, There was no need to bring ZIMO into this discussion about how ESU's UK distributor has washed it's hands of providing support for ESU decoders out of warranty. But since you have, lets get the facts straight for a change. There's no such 'exclusion' from supplier support for ZIMO UK customers. All accredited UK ZIMO retailers will accept decoders out of warranty for repair. ZIMO's UK distributor, RAIL EXCLUSIVE, have negotiated a modest fixed fee for repair of such decoders, so there's no need to kowtow to 'blank cheque' demands such as exists for ESU which amounts to 'send it in and agree to pay whatever we ask'. Nigel is correct in rewarding such diffidence with a black mark. (not that he did, it was a conditional suggestion on his part). It's disappointing when you need an umbrella and you find it has a hole in it. Most buyers don't consider the quality or ease of long term support at the time of purchase - so it's good when the supplier has done so on their behalf. SWD's position is indeed 'a bit crap'. It might even be illegal under UK consumer law. To the OP. Try Charlie at DC Kits, his ESU replace/repair policy is second to none. Best regards, Paul

.....and lots of space for sound fitting.

No, Alan, with standard ZIMO CVs it's either/or. Best regards, Paul

And give an excuse to have the rear cab light separately switched so It can be illuminated when travelling so the rear occupant can read their newspaper, or complete their paperwork. (Driver's end extinguished). Best regards, Paul

Subtle. Lol.

ZIMO decoders are covered by a three year 'free replacement or repair' warranty. It's described plainly enough on the ZIMO website for anyone who is inclined to read it, and on the packaging of every ZIMO decoder. If the decoders have been damaged by user error (like not bothering to protect against ESD damage) or physical misuse, or if it's outside the warranty period*, the UK distributer,RAIL EXCLUSIVE, has negotiated a fixed repair charge of £18. Some dealers charge extra for 'processing' the return and postage but not all. Chose your supplier wisely. *I sent a 12 year old decoder for repair by ZIMO for the fixed charge and it was returned with the latest software loaded so it is now better than when new. Try that with other brands and see how far you get. Best regards, Paul

No Problem. I have no connection with LaisDCC, or their decoders. I passed my specification to them via Digitrains since I wanted to fit an MX659 to a first release Heljan Manning-Wardle 009 and needed a compact design with the largest pads possible. Other commercially produced Next 18 sockets are now available. The only decoders I recommend are ZIMO. That's not a reflection on other brands, just that I know what ZIMOs are capabe of and that they will not let you down. Best regards, Paul

Hi Paul, Yes, I've used them. Nigel posted a very good description as I was typing this response. I could not have put it better, so I will not try. (I deleted my original text) Best regards, Paul

If these are factory sound fitted models, the earlier one will have an ESU decoder and the recent release a ZIMO. If so, its likely that your problem arises from the different multipliers used in CVs 3 and 4. ESU Loksound use there own rate, ZIMO use the more widely used factor recommended by the NMRA (also now used in the US version of Loksound, but not here). This results in a quicker acceleration and deceleration for the ESU for a given value in either of these CVs than all other decoder types sold in the UK, so their acceleration and deceleration rates will be different to the ZIMO if you use the same values in CVs 3 and 4 for each decoder. To convert the ESU multiplier to that which everyone else uses there is a ratio of approx 2.5 to 1. So, to match the acceleration of the ZIMO with, say, CV3 = 40 you will need to change the corresponding value in ESU to around 100. You will also need to ensure that any start delay* duration set is of equal length. On the ZIMO this is adjusted with CV 273. I don't know what the equivalent CV is with ESU or even if a start delay has been programmed. *Start delay is a short period between opening the throttle and the engine sound ramping up in conjunction with the model moving. This is to allow time for any pre-movement sounds (start whistle, air brake release) which are included in the project to finish playing before the locco moves off. Best regards, Paul

Most ZIMO non-sound decoders have this option too, though you will need a recent Firmware version to enable it. This FW may be either on your decoder already with a recent purchase or added by updating*. (check with your supplier and make it clear that you need V40.4 or later). CV273 sets the duration of the start delay, and operates exactly as in the sound decoders. *This ability to keep your decoders up to date regarding bug fixes and new features added as they develop by updating the FW is only possible with some brands. As it's a useful feature it's well worth finding out if the brand you are considering has the facility, as otherwise the only route to updated features is to buy a new decoder. Best regards, Paul

Hi Solo Fade out/in has always been a standard ZIMO feature and as such can be added by anyone to Digitrains' Heritage DMU (or any ZIMO project really, though most Digitrains' projects do have the fade already set up). So there's no need to miss out on one of your favourite features, and here's how simple it is to enable: First establish a 'not used' or 'reserved' F key, say for example F key 22. Use this as the value to enter in CV313, so CV313 = 22. This will assign Fade to F key 22 You can also vary the duration of the fade in 1/10 ths of a second by changing the value in CV314. CV314 = 30 gives a 3 second fade, CV314 = 50 gives a 5 second fade, and so on. This is useful as a long duration fade will suit slow moving sets, short fades better for fast movers. Of course, CV314 is equally valid for changing the fade duration in each of the Farish sound projects to suit the operator, movement and layout parameters. Best regards, Paul

Hi Dave, I like your ambition, that Simplex is a 16mm model. The main problem, apart from all the mechanical issues and the way the fan motor operates with PWM low duty cycle, is that the start-up and acceleration sounds were edited to match the varying fan speeds. This can only be done at project creation. If you are able to accept a mismatch (if that's what results -too early to say) between speed and engine sound when using an existing project, the functionality is available in all ZIMO sound decoders, so it could be set up with an existing project. It's just a few CVs to be altered and some function remapping. I can let you know which CVs, but I can't tell you the exact values to use because there will be so many variables with your custom model. (Motor size and type, fan drive mechanism, mass of fan and so on). You will need to do it empirically. Best regards, Paul

Hi John, No problem, glad you have it sorted. Best regards, Paul

No, the low voltage connection is not relevant to this issue. Use one of the 'Plus' connections, either at the screw terminal or the separate solder pad for the positive, and FA4 for the negative. From what you say, F key 22 will be the control key for FO4 Does the fan have a separate small PCB to which the fan is connected? If so, there is usually a small potentiometer (variable resistor) which can be adjusted with a small screw driver blade. It's possible that the resistance is set so high that the fan motor will not turn. Try adjusting this. (It might also be a good idea to test the fan in isolation with a DC source to confirm that the fan motor actually works). Also, 'cab lights' provision in the project may be direction dependent, so check that 'nothing happens' applies in both directions. Best regards, Paul

John, Understood, but it will help to ensure we are talking about the same version of the sound project if you can agree the sounds and functions to the list in the User Notes you have, or if you can point out any differences. One reason that your decoder is not behaving as you expect is that you may have a different version of the sound project than the User Notes supplied. It's only a small possibility that this has happened, but there's a chance of spending a lot of time trying to sort a problem which arises because of this. Best to be sure at the start. You have identified that F key 22 is not operating your fan as expected, what I would like to establish is whether the actual project you have is set up for the fan on F key 22, regardless of what it says in the User Notes. Please check the F Key responses to the Function List and let me know what values are in CV105 and CV106. If the feature is included in your project on F key 22 (it's not in the 00 version, for instance, since there are currently no Class 20 models aviailable with operating fans in this gauge) you should connect the positive of the fan to the Common Positive terminal, and the negative to the screw teminal for Function Output 4. (probably marked 'FA4'). Best regards, Paul