More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Regularity]

The house I live in (completed in 1901) has a damp course of slate.

[jamie92208]

7 hours ago, Regularity said:

The house I live in (completed in 1901) has a damp course of slate.

Our 1865 chapel in south Leeds had slate packings for levelling the floor joists on the bearer walls.  It also had a wlate roof. Probably about 2 wagon loads.

 

Jamie

[WFPettigrew]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've got a G&SWR open for my Ayrshire potatoes.

 

And this is a whole different can of worms (or slug infestation perhaps)..... Whilst a lot of agricultural produce in pre-grouping days going by rail would have been in sacks under tarps, or more rarely in covered wagons, so perhaps from a modelling perspective it doesn't matter what the loading might be in contrast to, say, a low sided wagon full of slates, but I am curious to know how food was sourced back then?  Obviously it's going to be very specific to each area, but your comment about Scottish spuds made me wonder about lead producing areas that were so dominant in the market that they would tend to sell pretty widely?

 

I know there has been some stuff up thread e.g. the analysis of the Sheffield Park goods traffic, but I am not sure this issue has been addressed here before?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, WFPettigrew said:

And this is a whole different can of worms (or slug infestation perhaps)..... Whilst a lot of agricultural produce in pre-grouping days going by rail would have been in sacks under tarps, or more rarely in covered wagons, so perhaps from a modelling perspective it doesn't matter what the loading might be in contrast to, say, a low sided wagon full of slates, but I am curious to know how food was sourced back then? 

 

I've done a search of the topic on "potato" / "potatoes" / "seed" without finding where I was told this - perhaps in another topic? But the suggestion was that Ayrshire potatoes were widely distributed as seed potatoes; a wagon label of 1903 provided similar evidence for Cambridgeshire potatoes being sent to Bristol; the time of year indicated seed rather than harvest potatoes. See Tony @Rail-Online's post immediately above this post:

 

[Asterix2012]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I've done a search of the topic on "potato" / "potatoes" / "seed" without finding where I was told this - perhaps in another topic? But the suggestion was that Ayrshire potatoes were widely distributed as seed potatoes; a wagon label of 1903 provided similar evidence for Cambridgeshire potatoes being sent to Bristol; the time of year indicated seed rather than harvest potatoes. See Tony @Rail-Online's post immediately above this post:

 

Angus on the east if Scotland is also well known for seed potatoes and potatoes in general, the climate and soil being well suited.

 

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

Angus on the east if Scotland is also well known for seed potatoes and potatoes in general, the climate and soil being well suited.

 

That would call for a North British wagon, a third kit for which I now have...

[Compound2632]

... this isn't it though it does have Scottish origins:

 

 

It's a kit I've not tried before, another from Cambrian, their C52 "Hurst Nelson type" PO wagon. At a scale 15 ft long, it's typical of 8-ton wagons meeting the 1887 RCH specification. The rounded ends and diagonal straps make a change from all those Slaters Gloucester types I've got. The kit does use their Gloucester underframe, which I've tried to disguise a bit. This site has a gallery of mostly 19th-century Hurst Nelson wagons, from which my key take-away is the round-bottomed axleboxes, so I've nibbled away at the corners of Cambrian's square-bottomed axleboxes. I've scraped off from the solebars the tails of the Gloucester-style inside diagonals and also carefully pared away the tops of the brake V-hanger - not completely, but then using d-limonene to soften them so they can be bent into the more usual vertical position. (An advantage of modelling wagons with single-side brakes is that you get two goes at this!) The brake block molding is from a Slaters kit, the Cambrian one being far too clunky. I've put the brake lever on, as in this case I'm thinking I will paint the wagon black all over - with no particular prototype to follow, this is probably going to end up as a "generic" PO wagon - one of those one sees in the background of photos, with undecipherable, grubby lettering. A wagon "extra", not one with a speaking part!  

Edited May 18, 2022 by Compound2632
sp.

[turbos]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That would call for a North British wagon, a third kit for which I now have...

The main agricultural area of what we now call Angus (pre 1928 it was called Forfarshire) is Strathmore, the main towns are Forfar and Brechin, definitely Caledonian Railway territory. Strathmore is still a major seed potato and soft fruit producing area.

 

Brian.

[Compound2632]

Just now, turbos said:

the main towns are Forfar and Brechin, definitely Caledonian Railway territory.

 

Stop it, all of you!

 

https://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=17

[Rail-Online]

Another 'edge of the neg' find. Ipswich shed in June 1934, but what is its origins - is it a Scottish wagon?

 

Forgot to say -the shape of the LMS looks non-standard to my eyes.....

 

Tony

Edited May 19, 2022 by Rail-Online
forgot to ........

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Rail-Online said:

Another 'edge of the neg' find. Ipswich shed in June 1934, but what is its origins - is it a Scottish wagon?

 

If the number is 175674 then it is ex-G&SWR, its last G&SWR number having been 5674, the LMS adding 170000 to G&SWR wagon numbers, putting them in a block between ex-L&YR and ex-NSR wagons [R.J. Essery and K.R. Morgan, The LMS Wagon (David & Charles, 1977) p. 19].

 

The lettering looks about the same size as the G&SW lettering used on these wagons; perhaps Kilmarnock went its own way. We've seen upthread a photo - one of yours? - with a wagon still lettered G&SW and looking quite fresh, well into the 20s or possibly after 1930?

Edited May 19, 2022 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

The only Potato Label I have is this BR one from Inverkeilor to Oswestry, 120 bags in Vehicle M230461.
The 2 refers to tarpaulins, so an open wagon. 
Inverkeilor is my (generations of) Family home, and yes as a youngster (late 1940's, early 50's) I was part of the potato picking gangs (Child labour?),  in fact the Scottish School holidays were structured to allow the Schools to be closed during the potato season.   And yes I was also a Raspberry etc., picker.
 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Penlan

[Asterix2012]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

If the number is 175674 then it is ex-G&SWR, its last G&SWR number having been 5674, the LMS adding 170000 to G&SWR wagon numbers, putting them in a block between ex-L&YR and ex-NSR wagons [R.J. Essery and K.R. Morgan, The LMS Wagon (David & Charles, 1977) p. 19].

 

The lettering looks about the same size as the G&SW lettering used on these wagons; perhaps Kilmarnock went its own way. We've seen upthread a photo - one of yours? - with a wagon still lettered G&SW and looking quite fresh, well into the 20s or possibly after 1930?

Was Barassie not the GSWR wagon works?

 

 I am pretty sure having a few friends from that part of Scotland that they might well do their own thing/ interpret the rules

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

Was Barassie not the GSWR wagon works?

 

My ignorance is exposed. I read that the Carriage & Wagon works there opened in 1901, replacing facilities at Kilmarnock. You're an education, all of you - thanks!

[Compound2632]

We haven't had any good D299 spotting for a while but this has just been sent to me:

 

 

[Embedded link to an photo in John Turner's "Industrial Railways" Flickr album.]

 

Port of London Authority, Millwall Docks, 21 January 1961.

 

The pattern of bolts on the cornerplate and the door ironwork are all a match for D299. It's had a replacement headstock - perhaps steel channel - and either a replacement section of curb rail, or I think more likely, a steel plate, under the door - I think it might be folded over to protect the curb rail under the door, where it has probably become very worn. The axleboxes look to be the 8A type, which, if original, would date the wagon to before c. 1889/90 - it would have been over 70 years old at the time of the photo. 

 

I suppose it might have been sold out of service, maybe through one of the wagon firms, to the PLA perhaps around 1910-14 when old D299s and D305s were sold to various minor railways such as the WC&PLR and PD&SWJR.

 

It's certainly the latest-surviving D299 of which I've seen a photo, by getting on for a quarter-century!

[Rail-Online]

On 19/05/2022 at 14:26, Asterix2012 said:

Was Barassie not the GSWR wagon works?

 

 I am pretty sure having a few friends from that part of Scotland that they might well do their own thing/ interpret the rules

The works at Barrassie were built by the G&SWR in 1902 to build and maintain carriages and wagons, by 1928 they were just a wagon works and BR would close them in 1974, surplus to requirements. Presumably Kilmarnock was everything before 1902.

 

Tony

Edited May 21, 2022 by Rail-Online

[kitpw]

On 17/05/2022 at 06:04, jamie92208 said:

Our 1865 chapel in south Leeds had slate packings for levelling the floor joists on the bearer walls.  It also had a wlate roof. Probably about 2 wagon loads.

In following up the topic of slates by rail, I came across these articles: "Historical aspects of the Welsh slate industry" (from the Quarry Managers' Journal, 1942/5 http://www.slateroof.co.uk/Slate_industry.html). It's a long read about slate production, transportation and costs but for those interested in industrial history, fascinating and it explains why so much UK housing was Welsh slate covered - as a for instance, when compared with clay tiles for roofing (in 1880), the cost of slating was 39% cheaper than clay tiling and the point is also made that carpentry costs were less for slating than for tiling as slates are significantly lighter. The chapters in the "Third Series", about a page each "Expansionist period", are most relevant.

Kit PW

[Compound2632]

On a more practical note for modelling wagons loaded with slate, I spent some time admiring the wagon loads being demonstrated at ExpoEM last weekend by @mike morley and discussing them with him. these included several slate loads, the making of which is briefly described here:

Apropos my question about the buffer guide packing blocks, there's this intriguing comment in the same topic:

which would imply that with or without is possible for 1902, though it would be useful to know whether it was the 1899 or 1902 drawing that showed the packing blocks!

 

[magmouse]

46 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

On a more practical note for modelling wagons loaded with slate, I spent some time admiring the wagon loads being demonstrated at ExpoEM last weekend by @mike morley and discussing them with him. these included several slate loads,

 

I've made slate loads for 16mm slate wagons, as follows.

 

1. Mark out the slates on black 10 thou plastic sheet:

 

Use some sand paper or wet-and-dry to roughen the surface, giving texture and creating a grey finish (no painting!):

 

Snap off strips:

 

Then into individual slates:

 

I make some full-size slates to go round the outside, then half-height for the ones in the middle, where you only see the tops. This saves material and weight. A box from plastic sheet supports the half-height slates, and has full size ones glued round the outside. The box of course is sized to the the particular wagon.

 

Start fillin gin rows of slates. They are put in loose, then solvent run in along the bottom edge to hold in place.

 

Keep going...

 

And the finished result:

 

I think this method would be fine for 7mm, but probably too fiddly in 4mm.

 

Nick.

[Mikkel]

That looks very good to my untrained eyes.

 

On a different matter, I thought the following snippet from the Railway Magazine's May 1901 (p 476) issue might be of interest:

 

"The fourteenth annual coupling contests for employees of the Furness Railway was held at Barrow on Good Friday, when the champion, R. Wilkinson, coupled and un-coupled fifteen wagons in 1 min. 3 4-5 sec. [sic], and twenty trucks in 1 min. 28 1-5 sec. In the twenty-truck contest the competition was most excitingly close, the second man being only one-fifth of a second behind the winner. The men do not have to go between the trucks as the coupling pole is used on such occasions." 

 

This quote also highlights the use of the word "truck" at the time, the exact meaning of which I have been wondering about for a while. It has been suggested to me that it just meant "wagon", but here truck and wagon are used together. So I assume it referred to vans, which would match other references I've found?

 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Mikkel
Added a question mark!

[kitpw]

7 hours ago, magmouse said:

I think this method would be fine for 7mm

...it is, except I use through coloured black paper, soaked in shellac, and when dry, cut on the Silhouette; then fine sand paper exacty as you describe.  I will need them for roofs as well as wagon loads.  What I couldn't find is illustrations of the stillages (if used) and quantities likely to find their way ito a standard gauge 10 ton open wagon (and which I was looking for when I came across the articles referenced above).  Stephen's reference to the Newcastle Emlyn thread is a good start (although pictures missing).  Nick, those n.g. slate wagons are very convincing!

 

More broadly, I've been trying to compile reference for rail transport of construction materials - bricks, slates, tiles, timber, clayware drainage, glass, steel and so on. This erratic and from "time-to-time" research inevitably lands on the treasure trove of the D299 appreciation thread - for which thanks to Stephen and contributors.

 

Kit PW

[magmouse]

43 minutes ago, kitpw said:

...it is, except I use through coloured black paper, soaked in shellac, and when dry, cut on the Silhouette; then fine sand paper exacty as you describe.  I will need them for roofs as well as wagon loads.  What I couldn't find is illustrations of the stillages (if used) and quantities likely to find their way ito a standard gauge 10 ton open wagon (and which I was looking for when I came across the articles referenced above).  Stephen's reference to the Newcastle Emlyn thread is a good start (although pictures missing).  Nick, those n.g. slate wagons are very convincing!

 

More broadly, I've been trying to compile reference for rail transport of construction materials - bricks, slates, tiles, timber, clayware drainage, glass, steel and so on. This erratic and from "time-to-time" research inevitably lands on the treasure trove of the D299 appreciation thread - for which thanks to Stephen and contributors.

 

Kit PW

Good tip about using black paper, shellac’ed - I might try that for 7mm scale. Regarding stillages (I had to look that up), I haven’t seen anything like that used in the photos I have found of slates being loaded. Where the narrow gauge lines met the standard gauge, transshipment seemed to be by hand, either directly from slate trucks to standard gauge wagon, or with the slates first being stacked on the ground.

 

As to quantities in a wagon, I guess weight would be the main limitation - not too hard to work out given slates come in standard sizes and the density of slate is known. I did work out with the narrow gauge trucks you can overload a 2 ton truck by filling it with the largest slates.

 

Nick.

[WFPettigrew]

Regarding how slate wagons were loaded, see this, taken on the Furness Railway in Grange over Sands in 1905.  I believe this photo is out of copyright, but will remove if someone can prove it needs to be. 

 

This is not the only image of an FR 2 plank loaded with Lake District slate with a distinct gap in the middle, and the slates stood on end across the wagon at either end.  I am guessing there are two factors at play here.  Firstly the wagon loading capacity of most FR 2 planks was no more than 10 tons - and the "fast side" ones with no side door like this loaded one, D15 as given by the LMS to its inherited stock, were rated 6 to 10 ton.  Secondly the fact that a lot of them (OK not this one..!) had full height side doors (as previously alluded to on this thread) meant it was possible to walk in and out of the wagon carrying an armful of slates, and leaving a gap in the middle made this easier. 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

PS for wider wagon spotting, no D299s here, but several single wheel single sided brakes for pre RCH 1887 regulations builds, and there is an Ackton Hall colliery PO wagon at the end of the left hand, coal merchants siding...

[Compound2632]

Density of slate = (2.7 - 2.8) x 10^3 kg/m^3 = 1.5 cwt/ft^3, approximately.

Slates loaded in the wagon are not packed absolutely tightly; there will be some air space.

As a guess, de-rate the density by 10% to 1.35 cwt/ft^3.

Typical wagon floor area = 14 ft 6 in x 7 ft 0 in = 101.5 sq ft.

So maximum depth of slate loaded uniformly:

8 ton wagon: 14 in;

10 ton wagon: 17 in.

That suggests to me that the wagon in @WFPettigrew's photo, with maybe 18 in sides, is loaded to capacity.

[kitpw]

26 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

FR 2 plank loaded with Lake District slate

Or perhaps a mixed load of slates (far end) and a thicker stone, perhaps paving, (nearer end).  It's interesting that both lots seem pretty uneven in size and the nearer quite ragged in shape.  Notably, no stillage in 1905 - perhaps a later development when mechanical handling became more common.

 

The revetting on the embankment caught my eye - it appears to be embedded stone.  I tried to get some photos of similar revetting round the abutments of an estuary bridge in Cornwall last summer but it was precipitous and slippery and I nearly lost both camera and dignity in the process. 

Kit PW