EM1's, Specifically 'Tommy'

[Wagonmaster]

In need of more help from our knowledgeable friends on RMWeb. I recently acquired an MSL etched brass kit of LNER 6701, 6000, BR 26000 'Tommy'. Although a complete kit of parts, it unfortunately didn't have any instructions!

 

Most of it is fairly obvious and I have built up the body with most of the detail parts. However, I have some bits left over that I have no idea what they are and where they go. 

 

The biggest problem concerns the roof area behind one of the pantographs. There is a rectangular area, with four holes in the roof, where something goes, but I can't see anything obvious that fits. From the few prototype photos I have seen l, it appears to be the electrical circuit breakers?

 

So, does anyone have a set of instructions they can copy for me or a diagram of the roof so that I can see what goes there please?

 

Any help gratefully received.

[RexAshton]

I think I have a set somewhere. I'll dig them out and PM you a set. As I recall they're a bit basic but better than nothing.

[Wagonmaster]

3 hours ago, RexAshton said:

I think I have a set somewhere. I'll dig them out and PM you a set. As I recall they're a bit basic but better than nothing.

 

That's great, thank you. Anything would be better than nothing, however basic. 

 

Cheers 

[dave75]

Rex 

 

Very helpful, and slightly embarrassing, when you dug the instructions out and sent a copy of them to wagonmaster, please also dig out the model they belong to and the spare parts, and kindly return them to me , you had then over 10 years and I would like them back please.

 

As discussed previously Im happy to recompense you for any time you have spent on the model but Ive not seen any evidence of this to date .

Sorry to air dirty washing in public but you cant say Ive not been fair .

 

Thanks Dave

Edited May 10, 2021 by dave75
added comment

[Wagonmaster]

More progress on my MSL Kit of 'Tommy'. With a bit of help from RMWeb, I have managed to complete the body and a running chassis. All the more tricky without any instructions! 'Tommy' is now in primer awaiting its coat of Doncaster Green paint. The chassis needs more attention to the bogies. It is slowly getting there!

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Wagonmaster

[dave75]

Looking very nice that. 

 

@RexAshton - not heard anything back from the messages I sent you yet? 

 

[RexAshton]

15 hours ago, dave75 said:

Looking very nice that. 

 

@RexAshton - not heard anything back from the messages I sent you yet? 

 

Sorry Dave. Nothing in my inbox. Despite lots of hours and at least to strip down and restart sessions I'm not getting anywhere. There are parts missing from both kits. I can persevere but the OP's photo looks far superior to anything I'm going to be able to bash out of the other kits. Do you want me to continue or send you back what I've got part built?

[Wagonmaster]

A little more progress on 'Tommy'. I have now painted it in the main colours of Doncaster Green and black cab roofs.  I have seen the odd model in LNER livery having an all black roof. I have looked very hard at various photographs and do not see any evidence for this. Photographs show black cab roofs, but if you look closely, there does not appear to be any tonal difference between the body sides and the central roof section, apart from lighting. I haven't come across any colour pictures and I doubt if any exist to prove this. Now, am I right in thinking this, or does anyone have any evidence to prove otherwise? I'd love to hear from you if you do!

 

It looks a little drab at the moment, but as I move on to some of the painted detailing, lining and numbers, I think it will look better.

 

 

[dave75]

Thanks for getting back to me Rex. 

 

I would like the kit back as is and would like to pick it up ASAP, either this weekend or early next, can you PM me with your availability please. Also like to make sure you have some funding for your efforts. 

Thanks dave 

[John Tomlinson]

On 23/05/2022 at 21:35, Wagonmaster said:

A little more progress on 'Tommy'. I have now painted it in the main colours of Doncaster Green and black cab roofs.  I have seen the odd model in LNER livery having an all black roof. I have looked very hard at various photographs and do not see any evidence for this. Photographs show black cab roofs, but if you look closely, there does not appear to be any tonal difference between the body sides and the central roof section, apart from lighting. I haven't come across any colour pictures and I doubt if any exist to prove this. Now, am I right in thinking this, or does anyone have any evidence to prove otherwise? I'd love to hear from you if you do!

 

It looks a little drab at the moment, but as I move on to some of the painted detailing, lining and numbers, I think it will look better.

 

 

 

You've done a lot better than me, I've had a standard 76 part built for ages.

 

I found this a real struggle. The body etch is too thin, twisting at every opportunity, and the fit of many parts isn't great. Out of interest, what have you done for powering yours, did you use the kit chassis or have you substituted something else?

 

John.

[Wagonmaster]

18 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

You've done a lot better than me, I've had a standard 76 part built for ages.

 

I found this a real struggle. The body etch is too thin, twisting at every opportunity, and the fit of many parts isn't great. Out of interest, what have you done for powering yours, did you use the kit chassis or have you substituted something else?

 

John.

I didn't find the etches overly thin. Maybe the 'Tommy' etch is a little thicker than the standard 76? I did re-enforce the body a bit inside though. You are right in saying the parts are not a great fit. I had to bodge a few things and use filler. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this wasn't easy as there weren't any instructions!

 

I have used the supplied kit chassis. I couldn't find anything else with the correct wheelbase. This was a fiddle too,  but now seems to run well enough. I'm now at the lining out stage, but struggling to work out how to put the circular lining around the marker lights!

 

I think persistence is the key, just keep having a go now and again!

[John Tomlinson]

1 hour ago, Wagonmaster said:

I didn't find the etches overly thin. Maybe the 'Tommy' etch is a little thicker than the standard 76? I did re-enforce the body a bit inside though. You are right in saying the parts are not a great fit. I had to bodge a few things and use filler. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this wasn't easy as there weren't any instructions!

 

I have used the supplied kit chassis. I couldn't find anything else with the correct wheelbase. This was a fiddle too,  but now seems to run well enough. I'm now at the lining out stage, but struggling to work out how to put the circular lining around the marker lights!

 

I think persistence is the key, just keep having a go now and again!

 

Thanks for the reply. You may be right about etch thickness, I have a "Tommy" kit in the cupboard as well and will have a look. Had I found your post before yesterday I could have copied the instructions, but you seem to have done fine without!

 

I'm glad you've got the kit chassis to work. I've used this also, but need a motor with a longer shaft. Mike Edge recommended one of the smaller Mashimas, of which I have some in stock, and will give this a go sometime. The 46mm wheelbase is unique as far as I can see, so no RTR unless you bodge a six wheel motor bogie by removing the centre axle.

 

I'm sure you're right, give it a go now and then!

 

John.

[Wagonmaster]

7 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

Thanks for the reply. You may be right about etch thickness, I have a "Tommy" kit in the cupboard as well and will have a look. Had I found your post before yesterday I could have copied the instructions, but you seem to have done fine without!

 

I'm glad you've got the kit chassis to work. I've used this also, but need a motor with a longer shaft. Mike Edge recommended one of the smaller Mashimas, of which I have some in stock, and will give this a go sometime. The 46mm wheelbase is unique as far as I can see, so no RTR unless you bodge a six wheel motor bogie by removing the centre axle.

 

I'm sure you're right, give it a go now and then!

 

John.

I didn't build the motor bogie quite as supplied. I used some Romford 16mm spoked tender wheels. These are on 2mm axles whereas the etch has holes for 1/8th axles. I fitted the 1/8th bearings, then used 1/8th to 2mm reducing bushes. The motor is a Mashima 1426 double ended type. Attached to this are some 33:1 gears that have 2mm spur gears to fit on the axles. These parts came from Branchlines. The folding flap motor mounts are in the wrong position for this combination and were removed and repositioned slightly lower down. There is a bit of trial and error here to get the gear mesh correct. Easy enough if you only tack solder the mounts. When happy with the meshing you can fully solder the mounts to the frames. Pick ups are phosphor bronze strip shaped and soldered to pieces of pcb sleeper that are glued to the central outrigger. 

 

I hope this makes sense and that it might be of some help. Below is a photo that might explain it better.

[John Tomlinson]

16 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

I didn't build the motor bogie quite as supplied. I used some Romford 16mm spoked tender wheels. These are on 2mm axles whereas the etch has holes for 1/8th axles. I fitted the 1/8th bearings, then used 1/8th to 2mm reducing bushes. The motor is a Mashima 1426 double ended type. Attached to this are some 33:1 gears that have 2mm spur gears to fit on the axles. These parts came from Branchlines. The folding flap motor mounts are in the wrong position for this combination and were removed and repositioned slightly lower down. There is a bit of trial and error here to get the gear mesh correct. Easy enough if you only tack solder the mounts. When happy with the meshing you can fully solder the mounts to the frames. Pick ups are phosphor bronze strip shaped and soldered to pieces of pcb sleeper that are glued to the central outrigger. 

 

I hope this makes sense and that it might be of some help. Below is a photo that might explain it better.

 

That's an extremely useful post, thank you!

 

John.

[Wagonmaster]

A bit more progress applying the transfers. This is a long, fiddly job especially trying to get them to sit right. Below is a photograph on my workbench showing how far I've got. I may need to redo some of them.

 

 

[Wagonmaster]

Well I have finally finished No.6701, aka 'Tommy'. It's taken a while and not the easiest kit I've ever built, not helped by not having any instructions.  My thanks to those on here that have helped.

 

It is fitted with dcc and has been chuntering around the layout. Must get some OHLE installed!

 

Hope you like it.

 

[Michael Edge]

It looks a bit odd with grey cab roof and green body roof - are you sure it wasn't grey above cantrail all round? I can't find any colour photos or definite information either.

[Wagonmaster]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

It looks a bit odd with grey cab roof and green body roof - are you sure it wasn't grey above cantrail all round? I can't find any colour photos or definite information either.

I was waiting for someone to point this out. I haven't been able to find any written details or colour photographs to confirm the livery either. I worked off the Works photo, it's a three quarter view with the nearest pantograph down (I can forward a copy if you like). If you look closely, you will see that there is no change in shade or finish between the bodysides and central roof section. There is a change on the cab roof though. Some later photographs taken in The Netherlands as No.6000 also show the same effect.

 

If the central section waa black/grey, I would have expected to see some tonal change at cantrail level, but there isn't one. A little trick I did with the computer was to try colourising the monochrome image. This also showed the central section as green. 

 

For what it's worth, I also noticed that the Olivia's Trains version has the green roof. They also have a different cab roof colour arrangement. This doesn't prove anything of course, but maybe they know something?

 

I agree it looks odd, but is that because we are so used to seeing grey roofs?

[Bucoops]

I suppose if you compared with a lined green steam loco, that has a black/grey cab roof with the rest green apart from the smokebox area - and this clearly doesn't have a smokebox...

[Michael Edge]

3 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

I was waiting for someone to point this out. I haven't been able to find any written details or colour photographs to confirm the livery either. I worked off the Works photo, it's a three quarter view with the nearest pantograph down (I can forward a copy if you like). If you look closely, you will see that there is no change in shade or finish between the bodysides and central roof section. There is a change on the cab roof though. Some later photographs taken in The Netherlands as No.6000 also show the same effect.

 

If the central section waa black/grey, I would have expected to see some tonal change at cantrail level, but there isn't one. A little trick I did with the computer was to try colourising the monochrome image. This also showed the central section as green. 

 

For what it's worth, I also noticed that the Olivia's Trains version has the green roof. They also have a different cab roof colour arrangement. This doesn't prove anything of course, but maybe they know something?

 

I agree it looks odd, but is that because we are so used to seeing grey roofs?

I can see what you mean, the cab roof is clearly a different colour but the side and roof are at the same angle in this view. The central body roof is however at a distinctly different angle to the body side below the cantrail strip, looking closely at the area near the door where they are at the same angle they look different, however both are in shadow at this point so still not conclusive. Generally speaking areas on the tops of locos which were never going to be cleaned were painted grey or black, in any case they would very quickly change to grey if they had been painted a different colour.

[Wagonmaster]

3 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

I can see what you mean, the cab roof is clearly a different colour but the side and roof are at the same angle in this view. The central body roof is however at a distinctly different angle to the body side below the cantrail strip, looking closely at the area near the door where they are at the same angle they look different, however both are in shadow at this point so still not conclusive. Generally speaking areas on the tops of locos which were never going to be cleaned were painted grey or black, in any case they would very quickly change to grey if they had been painted a different colour.

I take on board your comments and did consider how to treat the roof before I commenced painting. The model is supposed to represent No.6701 as it left the works in pristine condition, i.e  no grime on the roof. I had also looked at as many photographs of it as I could track down to see what was going on with the roof. To me, they all seem to show a green central roof. I could not make out any distinct difference in shade to indicate a different colour. 

 

I could be wrong here, but if any definitive evidence shows a black/grey central roof section, then I will be more than happy to repaint it.

[jsp3970]

Have you looked at the version offered by Heljan? The photos of it show a grey band above the windows while the top of the cab roof is green.

[Wagonmaster]

45 minutes ago, jsp3970 said:

Have you looked at the version offered by Heljan? The photos of it show a grey band above the windows while the top of the cab roof is green.

Yes, I did look at this version. However, I don't think it is a Heljan product, but something Olivia's Trains have produced. None of the photographs I have seen so far show the locomotive from above, only from ground or platform level. As such, it would be very difficult to say whether this is right or wrong as it cannot be proven either way! It would be interesting to find out what evidence they have for this though. Incidentally, Olivia's version also has a green central roof section. Do they know something we don't?

[jsp3970]

Looking at this photo I would say that the Olivia's version maybe correct, it seems that the shading is lighter above the grey, immediately above the windows, while the center roof is green (looks like the lining goes over the roof just behind the nearest cab door).

 

 

I do admit I like the way you painted it however.

[Dava]

I recalled this photo by Topical Press in LNER Album vol 1 of  6000 being despatched to Holland at Harwich in 1947, the main roof and body colours appear to be the same, but the grey/black cab roof has a border with the green.

 

Dava