EM1's, Specifically 'Tommy'

[Michael Edge]

I’m not convinced there’s a change of colour there, just the strap across the top breaking it up. If the body top was green the cab roof colour definitely goes right up to the riveted strap whether it’s black or grey (it’s certainly not green). The central roof profile is easily seen here as well, it’s too flat in all the published drawings and most models.

[Michael Edge]

That photo also shows the effect of a different angle on the tones in a black and white shot - nobody thinks that the angled windscreen area is a different colour do they?

[Wagonmaster]

14 hours ago, jsp3970 said:

Looking at this photo I would say that the Olivia's version maybe correct, it seems that the shading is lighter above the grey, immediately above the windows, while the center roof is green (looks like the lining goes over the roof just behind the nearest cab door).

 

 

I do admit I like the way you painted it however.

This is the main photograph I've been working off. No.6701 is as built here and I believe this is the works photo taken at Doncaster in 1939.

 

You can see a definite difference between the green and black above the cab front and side windows. There isn't such a marked difference in the central body section which leads me to think the roof is green here.

 

Pleased you like it though

[Wagonmaster]

13 hours ago, Dava said:

I recalled this photo by Topical Press in LNER Album vol 1 of  6000 being despatched to Holland at Harwich in 1947, the main roof and body colours appear to be the same, but the grey/black cab roof has a border with the green.

 

Dava

 

Thanks for posting this photo. I'd not seen this one and it does show the loco from a higher angle. Does it help though? You can certainly see the green  to black demarcation above the cab windows, but elsewhere it is less clear. It does rather look that the black above the cab windows is just a strip and doesn't cover the entire cab roof, like the Olivia's version. But I wouldn't like to say about the rest of the roof. I don't think it's black as you can see a transition on the cab roof, but is it green? 

 

The loco had been modified by this stage as well as renumbered. 

[Michael Edge]

No, it's not "just a strip", it's the effect of different angles and dirt again. The edge of the cab roof section is vertical, the window areas isn't and also the loco doesn't look particularly clean in this view - there is a reason why most areas of a loco not likely to be cleaned were painted grey or black.

[Human8984]

Reviving this topic as il be constructing a triplet of EM1's based on the Heljan bodies. Ive got a few questions :

1.  What are the difference between Tommy and the BR lot? I want to modify my Heljan bodies into 'Tommy' Spec

2. As i dont have access to any 76 chassis, What would be the best way of approaching the idea of building the motorised chassis for them? im thinking a Donor chassis with modified bogie Frames but i have no clue what to use as a donor. 

3. Would LNER black be a logical alternative to apple green as they were Mixed traffic engines?

[Les Bird]

I have a (quite old) resin body for an EM1 for which the recommended chassis is from a Western Class 52. As for Tommy, there are some quite significant differences from the production EM1's. If you look at photographs you will see that converting a Heljan body would quite an undertaking. The only one of the class to wear LNER livery (green) was Tommy. The rest were either BR black or BR green until they were repainted blue.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Les Bird
extra note

[Human8984]

21 minutes ago, Les Bird said:

I have a (quite old) resin body for an EM1 for which the recommended chassis is from a Western Class 52.

Would Said Chassis be a LIMA Chassis by any chance? 

 

And yes while the only one that wore LNER colours was Tommy, I plan for my models to be a 'What if' they had built a pilot run of 3 at doncaster. 

[John Tomlinson]

22 minutes ago, Human8984 said:

Would Said Chassis be a LIMA Chassis by any chance? 

 

And yes while the only one that wore LNER colours was Tommy, I plan for my models to be a 'What if' they had built a pilot run of 3 at doncaster. 

 

I think either the Lima or Hornby Western bogies would do.

 

Bear in mind that the BR black livery wasn't just black, it was lined, mainly in red but with some lines also using the mixed traffic grey. Thre's a lot of the red, around the inside of each panel on the bodysides for starters, you'll need some pictures.

 

The cab of "Tommy" is very different to production locos, not only the front windows being more square, but none on the side except for the cab door. A fair bit shorter too. Again, you'll need good pictures or drawings.

 

John.

[Human8984]

7 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

The cab of "Tommy" is very different to production locos, not only the front windows being more square, but none on the side except for the cab door. A fair bit shorter too. Again, you'll need good pictures or drawings.

So Id have to shorten both cabs, re-do the doors and square  the windows off more than the Gorton built stock? Any other differences? Pictures are quite reasonably easy to find, id just have to see what looked right, when modifying it.

[John Tomlinson]

5 minutes ago, Human8984 said:

So Id have to shorten both cabs, re-do the doors and square  the windows off more than the Gorton built stock? Any other differences? Pictures are quite reasonably easy to find, id just have to see what looked right, when modifying it.

 

Possibly other differences, I don't really know. If you get drawings/ photos of each you should be able to compare.

 

John.

[Les Bird]

17 hours ago, Human8984 said:

Would Said Chassis be a LIMA Chassis by any chance? 

 

And yes while the only one that wore LNER colours was Tommy, I plan for my models to be a 'What if' they had built a pilot run of 3 at doncaster. 

It was indeed the Lima chassis that was recommended although the current Hornby version would no doubt be suitable as well. I have a Lima chassis to use but, like a lot of my projects, this one is way down a long list of jobs to do! If I ever get around to it, it will join a fleet of seven Trix EM1's.

[John Tomlinson]

20 hours ago, Human8984 said:

So Id have to shorten both cabs, re-do the doors and square  the windows off more than the Gorton built stock? Any other differences? Pictures are quite reasonably easy to find, id just have to see what looked right, when modifying it.

 

I dug out my MSL "Tommy" kit and compared it to the one they do for the standard 76. 

 

On the basis that these kits are accurate....,

 

As well as the cabs being different, it appears the middle body is a bit shorter, and that the grille arrangement and sizes are not the same, on both sides.

 

So unless you're going to accept some compromises, it sounds to me like a lot of work indeed starting with the Heljan model.

 

John.

[pete_mcfarlane]

The dimensioned BR Diagrams are in the Brian Haresnape BR fleet survey book on electric locos. The Barrowmore group also have them online: http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Locos/Book_ELO_274_JP_web.pdf

 

Both types are the same length, the difference is that the cab door is further back on a production loco to allow for the cab side windows.  The drawings show the window side of the body, the window/grille differences are on the boiler side - the production locos have more/bigger grilles, so presumably there were cooling problems on the first loco. 

 

Tommy was also a couple of tons heavier than a production 76 with a boiler. I learn something new every day. 

[kevinlms]

19 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

The dimensioned BR Diagrams are in the Brian Haresnape BR fleet survey book on electric locos. The Barrowmore group also have them online: http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Locos/Book_ELO_274_JP_web.pdf

 

Both types are the same length, the difference is that the cab door is further back on a production loco to allow for the cab side windows.  The drawings show the window side of the body, the window/grille differences are on the boiler side - the production locos have more/bigger grilles, so presumably there were cooling problems on the first loco. 

 

Tommy was also a couple of tons heavier than a production 76 with a boiler. I learn something new every day. 

You'd think that if the grills were bigger and more of them, the loco would be lighter!

[Human8984]

Thank you all for your advice and knowledge on this matter. I will likely have to accept some compromise on the exact detail on the models But I am going to try my hand at least on making a reasonably accurate model of no.6000 . Any other advice is welcome and very much appreciated

[jsp3970]

On 02/04/2023 at 08:20, pete_mcfarlane said:

The dimensioned BR Diagrams are in the Brian Haresnape BR fleet survey book on electric locos. The Barrowmore group also have them online: http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Locos/Book_ELO_274_JP_web.pdf

 

Both types are the same length, the difference is that the cab door is further back on a production loco to allow for the cab side windows.  The drawings show the window side of the body, the window/grille differences are on the boiler side - the production locos have more/bigger grilles, so presumably there were cooling problems on the first loco. 

 

Tommy was also a couple of tons heavier than a production 76 with a boiler. I learn something new every day. 

I am the one that provided that book to Barrowmore so if anyone needs a larger scan let me know. I am so glad I grabbed those books when I did as my ex wife junked the rest of my diagrams, BR, Canadian, Turkish. ☹️

Edited April 3, 2023 by jsp3970

[Human8984]

2 minutes ago, jsp3970 said:

I am the one that provided that book to Barrowmore so if anyone needs a larger scan let me know.

Could you send me a scan please? EM1 (Tommy) and EM2 if possible. The woodhead stock is a favourite of  mine :)

[Wagonmaster]

I think 'Tommy' also had a different arrangement of roof vents. A look at the drawings should show this. The bogies were modified to give a better ride early in it's life. The large leaf spring was repositioned 'upside down' and I think the sandboxes were altered. All depends on exactly what time period you want your model to represent. As always, consult dated photographs.

 

Good luck!

[pete_mcfarlane]

I'd never noticed the changes to the springs. It seems to have happened during the loco's time in Holland.

 

There are some really nice photos of Tommy online from that time. I guess a lined green LNER loco probably stood out in post war Holland. 

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p746692738/hC60C5E1C

 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by pete_mcfarlane

[corsair]

has any one here used the shapeways 3d printed 00 scale body on a Heljan em1 chassis please i im looking at doing one