BR Green - BR blue diesels

[Piemanlarger]

When did the br green / two tone diesels start to be repainted into br blue?

 

classes 47,25,37,33, 108 inparticular.

 

I think tops classes were applied in 1972? If a diesel was re-painted befre this i guess it was blue with Dxxxx?

 

So, in theory its ok to have two tone green + dxxxx b;lue diesels, but perhaps not so two tone green + br blue 37xxx?

 

ThANKS

['CHARD]

When did the br green / two tone diesels start to be repainted into br blue?

 

classes 47,25,37,33, 108 inparticular.

 

I think tops classes were applied in 1972? If a diesel was re-painted befre this i guess it was blue with Dxxxx?

 

So, in theory its ok to have two tone green + dxxxx b;lue diesels, but perhaps not so two tone green + br blue 37xxx?

 

ThANKS

This site will give you a great start for 47 liveries: http://www.class47.co.uk/c47_liveries.php

 

I model the period 1966-68, weighted toward the latter, and my best reference source has been Brush Veteran's incredible photo galleries back on RMWeb3. TOPS numbering of diesels began in 1973 and was completed in 1975; Blue started to be applied from 1966 IIRC. Early blue repaints were D-prefixed eg D5116, D1536, D8507 etc... but the D was dispensed with after steam finished in August 1968, and the Ds started to fade away, albeit very slowly, from this time, allegedly Class 50 D437 was the first diesel new to traffic after the end of steam, but it still had D-numbers! Note also that many diesels made it to Green TOPS, particularly classes 20 and 47. There is a site dedicated to Green TOPS that those two words in a Google should find for you.

 

EDIT: http://www.railblue.com/rail_blue_history_2.htm - that's the one, and I believe it's Russell Saxton's masterpiece, he's also an RMWeb grandee.

 

HTH

'CHARD

[Trevor H]

When did the br green / two tone diesels start to be repainted into br blue?

 

classes 47,25,37,33, 108 inparticular.

 

I think tops classes were applied in 1972? If a diesel was re-painted befre this i guess it was blue with Dxxxx?

 

So, in theory its ok to have two tone green + dxxxx b;lue diesels, but perhaps not so two tone green + br blue 37xxx?

 

ThANKS

 

 

BR blue started in 1966, a few with full yellow but mostly with small yellow panels at the time, the main of the BFY locos really taking off in 1967 although their would still be the exception.

 

TOPS renumbering obviously took some time to do all locos, whilst the main of them were done between late 1973 to early/mid 1975, so it would be common during this period especialy during 1974 to see as many locos with either the new or old numbers.

 

Also many class 47's in two tone green carried TOPS numbers, i think the last 47256 was still in T/T green as late as 1978.

['CHARD]

47256 was damaged by fire in 1976 I think, Cardiff did a non-standard depot repaint in single tone dark green. At one stage she wore arrows-of-indecision into the bargain. She went standard blue at next main works visit.

 

Last TTG examples were 365 and 367 from memory, but I would recommend anyone visit Russ's site above. It's all on there, or the 47 site.

[Jamie]

... and my best reference source has been Brush Veteran's incredible photo galleries back on RMWeb3...

reloaded & added to on this RMWeb incarnation here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?app=gallery&module=user&user=4697&do=view_album&album=27

[Pennine MC]

Thread from the old forum on TOPS renumbering

[lapford34102]

The first 33's to appear in BFY were the TC fitted ones for the Bournemouth electrification. They started late 66 and into 67. I don't think normal 33's appeared in blue until late 68. A number had their exhausts modified and were returned to work in green FYE in late 67 on.

Stu

[Geoff Endacott]

This subject can get very complicated and your best bet is to refer to photographs whenever possible.

 

Green did indeed start to give way to blue in 1966, but some of the Class 47s were never green. They were D1733 and D1953-61.

 

Don't forget that the D prefix was abolished from 1968 onward following the end of steam. Some green locos had the D painted out; others did not. Early blue repaints kept the D; later ones did not have it. Some early blue locos later had the D painted out.

 

Yellow panels were another source of variation. Some locos had small yellow panels; others has full yellow ends.

 

So from 1968 until the beginning of TOPS in 1973 locos were green or blue, with small yellow panels or full yellow ends and with or without the D prefix.

 

So yes, you can have two tone green locos running alongside blue Dxxxx locos. You can also have green locos alongside blue TOPS locos - provided you choose the individual examples carefully.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

 

[Russ (mines a pint)]

there were rumours of 47's been outshopped in Two-tone Green, by Crewe into the 1970's because they had some paint left... I see that this is also mentioned on the http://www.railblue.com/rail_blue_history_2.htm

['CHARD]

I've now fully worked out the identities of my four compadres in the 1968-72 category of the 'Which Era Do You Model' poll, currently running on here.

 

Well, it keeps the Christmas Card bill down hey!

 

When I reset my modelling TARDIS I hadn't imagined how much fun - and how many awesome discoveries - was/were to be had researching and replicating this era. Going from 0O00 TOPS back a few years is perhaps the best decision I ever made, abeited by the product range of a certain Heljan though, it must be said.*

 

* with an honourable mention to Bachmann for its BR/Sulzer ranges....

[Bob Reid]

..........Going from 0O00 TOPS back a few years.......

 

Aye, the mark of Pedant 0O00 and the ability to remember that the general instruction to repaint in BR Blue went out in mid-1966! (as opposed to some other date trawled from a website). Your doomed Chard, your doomed.

['CHARD]

Aye, the mark of Pedant 0O00 and the ability to remember that the general instruction to repaint in BR Blue went out in mid-1966! (as opposed to some other date trawled from a website). Your doomed Chard, your doomed.

Love it, Bob - in fact 0O00 The Pedant's Mark is tattooed alluringly on my ankle.

 

It's at times like this I miss the chance for the line of twenty clapping purple emoticons.

 

Or the 'CHARD getting his coat emoticon (or coaticon, as we call it in the trade).

 

 

As will be explored in good time over on a more relevant thread or blog, the niche livery of Brush Blue has a place on the Waverley Route, with the publication by Bruce McCartney of a photo one of this small cadre of locos passing Riccarton Junction with a lone BG. What Railway Modeller of old would have catergorised as in the Prototype For Everything Department. Hijack ends.

[Oldddudders]

The first 33's to appear in BFY were the TC fitted ones for the Bournemouth electrification. They started late 66 and into 67. I don't think normal 33's appeared in blue until late 68. A number had their exhausts modified and were returned to work in green FYE in late 67 on.

Stu

I went to work in Redhill Control in May 1968. Since the office was alongside the junction and MPD, the Loco Controller was able to keep an eye on his passing charges. In those days the Crompton (later 33) fleet was under the direction of the SE Division at Orpington, and the Central had to keep the SE advised of which loco was on which turn. As already stated, about this time Cromptons got their first real re-paint, and one loco controller in particular was dead keen on retaining the smart new blue ones on the Central, while swapping grotty green & white ones onto turns that would take them back to the SE. And you thought running a railway was a serious occupation.....

[Russell Saxton]

I wrote an article for Classic Diesel and Eletric about 47 liveries green to blue where I listed all the repaint dates.

 

heres an extract;

 

 

 

Repaints from green into blue commenced at Crewe works in November 1967 with D1528, and locos repainted blue from then till August 1968 appeared with D prefixed cabside numbers and large arrow symbols, two each side behind the cab doors. All had full yellow ends, which had become standard by this time. The only 47 ever to run in blue with small panels was the aforementioned D1733. (Which incidentally went into standard blue in December 1969).

 

 

Dates were as follows

 

 

D1528 2/11/67 (standard blue 8/5/72)

 

D1531 19/1/68 (standard blue 12/3/73)

 

D1532 18/12/67 (standard blue 1/11/72)

 

D1536 10/11/67 (standard blue 10/8/72)

 

D1547 18/1/68 (standard blue 4/3/73)

 

D1550 18/1/68 (standard blue 3/3/70)

 

D1558 2/2/68 (standard blue 12/2/73)

 

D1569 13/6/68 (standard blue 16/8/73)

 

D1575 4/4/68 (standard blue 19/2/73)

 

D1595 5/8/68 (standard blue 13/12/71)

 

D1692 17/7/68 (standard blue 29/11/71)

 

D1723 11/6/68 (date to standard unknown but was still early blue 1/8/74 as 1723)

 

D1725 14/6/68 (date to standard unknown but most probably Oct 74)

 

D1932 7/6/68 (standard blue after renumbering as 47493, date unknown)

 

 

<H1 style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">3. Early blue without D</H1>

 

From 14/9/68 BR decreed that diesel locos need no longer wear the d prefix to the number, and the next few repainted between then and December 1968 appeared as above, but minus the D prefix, starting with 1712, outshopped in September.

 

1569, which did have a d prefix had lost it by April 1969 and 1547/75 were the same. These were minor depot alterations and are largely impossible to tie down to a particular date.

 

 

Dates of repaint for this variation were

 

 

 

1662 12/12/68 (standard blue 8/12/73 )

 

1684 10/12/68 (standard blue unknown)

 

1712 28/9/68 (to standard 2/6/75 as 47123, ran as early blue TOPS until then)

 

1718 4/10/68 (standard blue unknown)

 

 

Out of the two groups 1662/84 briefly ran with full yellow ends on green. As far as I am aware the others went direct to blue but I would be grateful if anyone can prove they ever had full yellow ends.

 

 

In December 1968, no 1649 became the first to appear in what we now refer to as standard blue, that is with a central bodyside arrow and the numbers behind the cab doors. A few days previously 1662 was outshopped in early blue without a D and became not only the first blue ???namer??™ 47 and the only one to appear in early blue as well as having the distinction of being the last 47 to receive it. Or almost??¦

 

 

4. Oddities

 

 

For some reason 1589 was outshopped by Crewe in Feb 1971 in early blue with cabside serif numbers and arrows behind the cab doors. I have no idea why this was done over two years after 1649 appeared in standard blue. Paintshop records list it as ???repainted by hand in the erecting shop the style of the green locos in error??™ and that??™s probably the truth!

 

 

1660 ???City of Truro??™ appeared in blue with cabside serif style numbers in August 1971 and in August 1973, 1647 and 1661 were repainted blue at Old Oak Common, the former with cabside numbers and a central arrows, the latter with cabside numbers and no arrows at all! The odd number placements disappeared when the locos were renumbered into TOPS but I would like to ascertain whether 1661 gained an arrow at the same time.

 

 

Most of the early blue variants were repainted into standard blue before the introduction of TOPS numbering but 1712 (as 47123) 1932 (as 47493) and 1960 as (47514) kept early blue as TOPS locos for a short time with 47514 lasting into autumn 1975.

 

47123 had one of its bodyside arrows painted out and the TOPS number applied over it, as on a standard blue loco.

 

47553 also had it??™s TOPS number applied over the site of the D1956 which were set noticeably lower down, although it did receive a central arrow. I would like to discover if it gained central arrows at the same time as its renumbering to 47260 or (as is more likely) during it??™s general overhaul in 1974).

 

 

Hope that lot is helpful

 

 

[Russell Saxton]

there were rumours of 47's been outshopped in Two-tone Green, by Crewe into the 1970's because they had some paint left... I see that this is also mentioned on the http://www.railblue....e_history_2.htm

 

 

 

Yes this is true, many were put through generals in 1971/2 and outshopped in green, often getting ETH fitted at the same time.

[Russell Saxton]

This site will give you a great start for 47 liveries: http://www.class47.c...47_liveries.php

 

EDIT: http://www.railblue....e_history_2.htm - that's the one, and I believe it's Russell Saxton's masterpiece, he's also an RMWeb grandee.

 

HTH

'CHARD

 

 

Ah, I cant claim that Im afraid. I have contributed the green TOPS list but the main website is not mine!

[Russell Saxton]

Last green small yellow panel 47 was D1744 running until November 1970 like it. It had I believe been unique for some months.

[Russell Saxton]

When did the br green / two tone diesels start to be repainted into br blue?

 

classes 47,25,37,33, 108 inparticular.

 

I think tops classes were applied in 1972? If a diesel was re-painted befre this i guess it was blue with Dxxxx?

 

So, in theory its ok to have two tone green + dxxxx b;lue diesels, but perhaps not so two tone green + br blue 37xxx?

 

ThANKS

 

 

Nearly. Blue livery appeared from 1966 and TOPS renumbering began with electrics in 1972 and diesels in May 1973. Last green locos were 20141 and 08934 in 1980. Over 500 locos wore green and a TOPS number so its fine to run green Dxxx and blue 37xxx provided your layout is set in 1973/74.

 

D prefixes were abandoned from 14 sept 68 but many wore them up till TOPS renumberings.

 

First 24/5 into Rail Blue was D5068 but D7660-77 were delivered blue and D5218 and possibly D5226 had an early style of blue with panels and lion and wheel emblems. Several 24s had lion and wheel on blue and 24021 had it to withdrawal. Others had the arrow on green.

D7600/59 still retained yellow panels until feb 1974 and never appeared GFYE.

 

First 37 Im not absolutely sure but its highly possible it was D6945 in 1967. Interestingly the last green one was its immediate predecessor D6944 which remained green as 37244 till October 1976. A number of 37s including 6921/32/82 had arrows on green.

[Pennine MC]

there were rumours of 47's been outshopped in Two-tone Green, by Crewe into the 1970's because they had some paint left... I see that this is also mentioned on the http://www.railblue.com/rail_blue_history_2.htm

 

Yes this is true, many were put through generals in 1971/2 and outshopped in green, often getting ETH fitted at the same time.

 

I've never seen anything conclusive either way, but it's always been my understanding (and ISTR mag reports at the time suggesting this) that they were touched up where needed and revarnished, rather than full repaints. The same would presumably be true of other outshoppings in green at that time

[Russell Saxton]

Yeah, thats pretty much it. It was tarting up existing green as opposed to fresh coats. One that had it done was 1936 (474940 which became one of several green TOPS 47/4s. The rest were in the 11xx series.

[Russell Saxton]

The first 33's to appear in BFY were the TC fitted ones for the Bournemouth electrification. They started late 66 and into 67. I don't think normal 33's appeared in blue until late 68. A number had their exhausts modified and were returned to work in green FYE in late 67 on.

Stu

 

D6580 was the first TC fitted and it was green, the only one. There were several blue 33s as early as spring 1967, id need to check my files to see which ones and if any were normal members of the class (though from memory 6522/55/79 were all blue in the early part of 1968) but conversely there were a number still all over green without any yellow ends at all into 1968.

 

I dont need to look to say that the last 33 in green was 6566 in April 1971.

[Russell Saxton]

Did the pic of 20050s cab with the old numbers on get deleted? No copyright issue as I took it myself at swindon 6 June 1981. Dont mind it being used on the old forum anyway, just wanted to claim its authorship!

 

Hope I havent trod on any toes.

[Pennine MC]

Did the pic of 20050s cab with the old numbers on get deleted? .

 

IIRC Russ, it's in the thread on the old forum that I linked to above: TOPS renumbering

[Russell Saxton]

 

 

Also many class 47's in two tone green carried TOPS numbers, i think the last 47256 was still in T/T green as late as 1978.

 

Yes thats true. it was damaged as you say by fire and repainted in an odd all over green in jan 1978. It went standard blue in October 1978.

 

Ive got one photo of it in this scheme.

[coachmann]

I seem to remember one or more 47s were repainted all over dark green to use up paint. (The ligher green wasn't applied). I photographed one of the last 47 remaining in green in the late 1970's at Llandudno Junction.

 

As regards rail blue, I gave them a second glance but that was all, usually because they were ex-works. I took up railway photography again as a relaxation in the 1970's only to realize how much I had missed since loosing interest in 1965. It came as a shock to discover the hydraulics had gone as it never entered my head BR would be withdrawing D i e s e l s...