Branch Line Freight

[sjrixon]

Would GWR B sets, auto coaches etc ever have freight attached? Thinking of mail, milk, fruit etc? 

[gwrrob]

Most definitely.The b set on the Kingsbridge branch for example quite often had a van attached and on occasions it contained fresh crab caught at Beesands.

[Karhedron]

Yes, the "Marlow Donkey" commonly towed a mix of wagons behind the autocoach as shown here (2nd image down).

 

http://www.mdrs.org.uk/wycmaidmarlow.htm#1950s

 

It was often easier to attach the wagons to the autotrain than to run a separate dedicated goods service.

[sjrixon]

Thanks.. My Google hadn't found any pictures..

[Fat Controller]

Would GWR B sets, auto coaches etc ever have freight attached? Thinking of mail, milk, fruit etc? 

The traffics you cite are normally those classed as passenger-rated, and so would be quite normal companions to branch-line or main-line trains. Amongst the examples that come to mind are milk tanks from the creamery at Saltash (attached to the autocoach in steam days, then to the 'Bubble Cars' that replaced them), demountable milk-tanks on stopping services on the Central Wales line, fish vans on services from Milford Haven or Neyland. Mails would normally be carried in the brake/guard's compartment, however, under the guard's supervision.

Pure 'freight' stock, as in the photos of the Marlow Donkey above, were much more rare; the other example of this that comes to mind is the Hemyock branch. I suspect that, in both cases, the wagons were conveyed between the main-line junction and the terminii, and weren't shunted at intermediate stations; I doubt that the Board of Trade would be happy with either a loaded passenger coach being uncoupled and left at a platform, or the loaded coach being taken in and out of sidings not passed for passenger traffic.

[The Stationmaster]

We're sort of getting things mixed up a bit here.

 

There are two very separate things involved.  The first of these is tail traffic which is usually, but not exclusively, Passenger Rated traffic attached to the rear or the front of a passenger and complying with the Brake Regulations (i.e. brake fitted vehicles).  Basically, subject to restrictions on some some types of vehicle allowed to be attached, any passenger train could convey tail traffic and do so without any special authority.

 

The second is a freight vehicle portion on a Mixed Train.  These are readily distinguished in pictures of the 'traditional railway' as the passenger vehicles were formed next to the engine, then the freight wagons, then - at the rear - a freight brakevan.  There were very strict limits and conditions on where Mixed Trains were permitted to operate including their speeds, distance between stations, and - in some cases - number run over a line as a percentage of the total number of trains.  Effectively the Regulations confined them to branch lines and on some branches all trains were authorised to run as Mixed while on others particular trains were so nominated in the Working Timetable; only trains which were so authorised in the Working Timetable could run as a Mixed Train.

 

As far as shunting is concerned Mixed Trains were allowed to make a single shunt to one siding with the passenger carrying vehicles still attached and occupied by passengers - if the shunting was anymore complex than that the passengers had to be detrained.  At branch termini etc it was the normal practice to leave the passenger vehicles aside while shunting the freight vehicles however on the GWR it was permitted to carry out such shunting with an autotrailer still attached to the engine in order to avoid the awkwardness of detaching it.

 

There were very few restrictions on the type of freight vehicles and goods allowed to be conveyed by mixed trains - the main exclusion was explosives - so a Mixed Train could readily convey, say, coal wagons.

 

Hope that helps a bit.

[David C]

As regards "proper" mixed trains (as defined by The Stationmaster above), these were not uncommon on GWR lines up to about the mid 1950s (photo evidence would suggest) and in some cases, even up to closure. On lightly loaded lines, (such as Tetbury) they were the norm as it was uneconomic to run separate goods only trains. Other branches, such as Helston, Cirencester and Cardigan used them to supplement normal goods only trains. Indeed, all trains on the latter were labelled as mixed, although only one ever did convey goods wagons in BR days apparently.

 

I'm very much in favour of mixed trains on models as they add a great deal of interest to operation. So does shunting tail traffic on and off passenger trains. My BR(W) branch, "Woodstowe", uses the timetable of the Cardigan branch in its later years: a good 90 minutes entertainment or so with a mere 5 up and 6 down trains per day! That includes 2 goods each way, 1 down mixed plus a LWB van as tail traffic attached to a passenger train each way.

 

David C

[clachnaharry]

As fas as I recall, all Wallingford freight was carried in mixed trains prior to closure to passenger traffic. Having said that, I have yet to see a photograph of the engine propelling the auto-coach whilst hauling the wagons.  Did that consit ever happen and was it authorised, ie. autocoach- loco - wagons?

[The Stationmaster]

As fas as I recall, all Wallingford freight was carried in mixed trains prior to closure to passenger traffic. Having said that, I have yet to see a photograph of the engine propelling the auto-coach whilst hauling the wagons.  Did that consit ever happen and was it authorised, ie. autocoach- loco - wagons?

All trains on the Wallingford branch were at one time authorised to run as Mixed Trains and I presume that situation continued until passenger traffic ceased - there were no freight trains in the Service (i.e. 'Working') Timetable for the branch in GWR days.

 

Both the Cirencester  and Tetbury branches had Mixed and Freight Trains in 1947 - Tetbury had two Auto trains in each direction authorised to run as Mixed Trains while Cireencester had two NMixed Trains authorised in the Down direction in the morning and one Up train authorised in the evening.  In the same year the Cardigan branch had three Down trains and two Up trains authorised to run as Mixed Trains while one in each direction ran only as an Ordinary Passenger train.  the Helston branch was authorised two Mixed Trains in each direction together with the six Ordinary passenger Trains in each direction.

[clachnaharry]

Yes - but did these mixed trains run with the engine propelling the coach and hauling wagons? I can't recall seing a photograph of that consist.

[The Stationmaster]

Yes - but did these mixed trains run with the engine propelling the coach and hauling wagons? I can't recall seing a photograph of that consist.

No reason why they shouldn't and nothing in the Regulations to prevent it - they certainly didn't run-round the engine and that wouldn't have helped anyway with a  single ended autocoach.

[Pacific231G]

We're sort of getting things mixed up a bit here.

 

As far as shunting is concerned Mixed Trains were allowed to make a single shunt to one siding with the passenger carrying vehicles still attached and occupied by passengers - if the shunting was anymore complex than that the passengers had to be detrained.  At branch termini etc it was the normal practice to leave the passenger vehicles aside while shunting the freight vehicles however on the GWR it was permitted to carry out such shunting with an autotrailer still attached to the engine in order to avoid the awkwardness of detaching it.

 

 

Slightly OT but what were the rules in Britain for shunting with passengers aboard when making or breaking a train during its run? The obvious example is the ACE but there were some trains where through coaches were detached from one train and added to another.  This seems to have been far more common in mainland Europe where some through coaches formed part of several different trains during their run and at some junctions quite a lot of shunting was involved but was there a limit to the number of shunting moves allowed in Britain?  It used to be a common sight at European junctions to see people who'd got off a train to buy food etc. getting very anxious when they saw it trundling out of the station five or ten minutes before the departure time especially if their luggage, family, school party etc. was still aboard, only to reappear on some distant platform several minutes later. I do wonder how often this caused accidents as people tried to jump on or off moving carriages.

 

I assume that British mixed trains were a bit constrained by the number of unfitted wagons. I have experienced them in Austria in the 1970s and the passenger carriages were always at the end of the train so they could be left in the platform while the loco shunted its wagons (normally a fairly simple three or four move operation) but wagons were all piped and connected with screw couplings which were universal for both passenger and goods stock. There was an added complication certainly in France but probably elsewhere in that the Westinghouse brake on goods wagons often had two settings, passenger and goods. Passenger stock normally only had passenger brakes and "slow" goods wagons only had goods brakes but wagons that could be used in both regimes had a lever that had to be set appropriately. I think that mixed trains could include any type of goods wagon but tail traffic had to be appropriately fitted (except when it didn't- the regulations are complicated!!)  

[neilrh]

I came across of photo of autocoach - loco - wagons just a week or two ago. But it was entirely by accident, and I wasn't looking for it, so it just registered as "oh that's unusual" before I moved on to find what I was looking for.

[ThePipersSon]

The book 'The Early Years of Western Region Steam' contains two pictures of what they call the 'Sausages and Souls' train on the Calne branch, conveying products of the Messrs. Harris factory in Calne.

 

One shows the train as Autocoach-54XX followed by two Siphon Cs.

 

The second shows Autocoach-54XX followed by what appears to be a six-wheeled vehicle from the east side of the country (to my eyes) plus a four-wheel van.

[The Stationmaster]

Slightly OT but what were the rules in Britain for shunting with passengers aboard when making or breaking a train during its run? The obvious example is the ACE but there were some trains where through coaches were detached from one train and added to another.  This seems to have been far more common in mainland Europe where some through coaches formed part of several different trains during their run and at some junctions quite a lot of shunting was involved but was there a limit to the number of shunting moves allowed in Britain?  It used to be a common sight at European junctions to see people who'd got off a train to buy food etc. getting very anxious when they saw it trundling out of the station five or ten minutes before the departure time especially if their luggage, family, school party etc. was still aboard, only to reappear on some distant platform several minutes later. I do wonder how often this caused accidents as people tried to jump on or off moving carriages.

 

I assume that British mixed trains were a bit constrained by the number of unfitted wagons. I have experienced them in Austria in the 1970s and the passenger carriages were always at the end of the train so they could be left in the platform while the loco shunted its wagons (normally a fairly simple three or four move operation) but wagons were all piped and connected with screw couplings which were universal for both passenger and goods stock. There was an added complication certainly in France but probably elsewhere in that the Westinghouse brake on goods wagons often had two settings, passenger and goods. Passenger stock normally only had passenger brakes and "slow" goods wagons only had goods brakes but wagons that could be used in both regimes had a lever that had to be set appropriately. I think that mixed trains could include any type of goods wagon but tail traffic had to be appropriately fitted (except when it didn't- the regulations are complicated!!)  

Firstly there was no real limit, except practicality and having a suitable track layout, on the shunting of passenger train portions and it was quite common fare in teh steam and early diesel ages in Britain but what knocked it on the head were line closures and the move towards fixed(ish) formations for passenger trains.  It was of course time consuming and it needed the necessary infrastructure so no surprise that it went.

 

As far as mixed trains were concerned in Britain the only restriction would be the capability of the motive power and length although as a  general rule Mixed Trains were only found on lightly trafficked lines so they would not load heavily anyway.  Stopping was interesting and basically required careful handling by both Driver and the rear Guard, fascinating to note on at least one GWR branch Mixed Trains were required to stop at a gradient related STOP board in just the same way as freight trains were.

[The Stationmaster]

Most definitely.The b set on the Kingsbridge branch for example quite often had a van attached and on occasions it contained fresh crab caught at Beesands.

BTW Rob there was also a train authorised to run as Mixed in each direction on the branch - Brent to Kingsbridge in the morning and in the opposite direction in the evening 'for urgent goods traffic'.

[gwrrob]

BTW Rob there was also a train authorised to run as Mixed in each direction on the branch - Brent to Kingsbridge in the morning and in the opposite direction in the evening 'for urgent goods traffic'.

 

I actually thought this was the same train Mike.Was there another then.

[The Stationmaster]

I actually thought this was the same train Mike.Was there another then.

Probably the same set of coaches Rob (the/a branch set) but there were other passenger and freights between the two Mixed Trains.  Judging by the timetable note, and some logic without checking the mainline freight trains times the idea was presumably to provide a service for more urgent goods traffic, possibly even specific flows of traffic.

[sjrixon]

Loved the conversation this provoked!

 

Wouldn't it have been great to be on that autocoach when they were doing the shunting? I could see you standing at watching the trucks being pushing into the siding.

 

As you have mentioned, adds great operational interest to a layout. I've never been a huge fan of passenger stock, as all it does it pull in and out of a station. But the idea of an autocoach or a B set that has a few trucks or just some siphons is is great!