31.5 vs. 32mm gauge

[Wotan]

Good Morning,

Id appreciate some thoughts on the merits of 31.5mm gauge vs. the standard 32mm O gauge fine scale please?

Any merits, advantages,disadvantages of both without going into the discussions of S7...

many thanks

 

Michael

 

[3 link]

Morning Micheal!

 

There are plenty of threads on the merits of both gauges if you search on the web, otherwise we will be just going round in circles and getting no where which is what usually happens.

 

Martyn.

[muddys-blues]

[Wotan]

A

 

Morning Micheal!

There are plenty of threads on the merits of both gauges if you search on the web, otherwise we will be just going round in circles and getting no where which is what usually happens.

Martyn.

Aha !

I see....

You never know there might be some sensible comments, one can always hope Martyn....

So I've just googled, oh my........

Edited July 29, 2017 by Wotan

[t-b-g]

I am a newbie to 7mm. After some 40 years working in EM gauge I am going dual gauge.

 

I hadn't heard of 31.5mm gauge but I was invited to view a layout that was built in a loft, which exhibited the best running I can ever recall seeing. The layout had been built by a professional railwayman with lots of experience of the real thing and we were able to propel full length express trains, of around 12 bogies, round relatively tight curves with no clicks, bumps and not a hint of a derailment.

 

It was just how I want mine to run, although I won't have room for more than 5 bogie carriages. I asked him how he had obtained such superb running and the answer he gave was that he used 31.5mm gauge through his points.

 

Now I have no doubt that there are layouts with 32mm gauge that run as well but I always prefer to go on what I have seen with my own eyes and I was sold!

 

The other factor is appearance. The gap through check rails on 31.5 is narrower than the rail head, like the real thing. In 32mm, the check gap is wider than the rail head. It is a tiny difference but visually, that change in proportion makes a big difference to the realism of the track. 31.5mm pointwork looks, to me, more like Scale7 than it does conventional O gauge at 32mm.

 

And finally, if there is anybody out there who can tell the difference between 32mm and 31.5mm without measuring, when there are no check rails around, they have eyes far superior to mine, as I can't!

 

The latest MRJ has, on its front cover, a photo of a layout built using 31.5mm (I think - I may be wrong but somebody told me that was what was used) and it looks superb.

 

So that is what I will be using. I want to build all the track anyway, as I have P.way drawings of GCR track and I want to model it with correct sleepering sizes and spacings, which ready to lay track doesn't cater for. So it can all be 31.5mm gauge with no need to have rails widening and narrowing at points, as some do (including the one I saw that ran so well).

 

I fully accept that others hold alternative views and there can never be a "right" or "wrong" in such things as layouts in both gauges have been built and work. But that is my personal preference. 

[81A Oldoak]

I've always enjoyed a comment from the late Cyril Freezer on page 151 of "The Model Railway Design Manual". Referring to Scale Seven, he says, "This system involves a slight increase in track gauge and exact scale wheel profiles, but is only distinguishable from 0 gauge by the large notices attached to layouts at exhibitions." I model to two standards simultaneously. Signalling, buildings, road vehicles, scenery, people etc are modelled to Scale Seven, while track and rolling stock are modelled to 7mm Finescale 32mm gauge.

[t-b-g]

I've always enjoyed a comment from the late Cyril Freezer on page 151 of "The Model Railway Design Manual". Referring to Scale Seven, he says, "This system involves a slight increase in track gauge and exact scale wheel profiles, but is only distinguishable from 0 gauge by the large notices attached to layouts at exhibitions." I model to two standards simultaneously. Signalling, buildings, road vehicles, scenery, people etc are modelled to Scale Seven, while track and rolling stock are modelled to 7mm Finescale 32mm gauge.

 

That comment says more about Cyril Freezer than it does about finescale modelling! I recall that he was not a huge fan of P4 either.

 

There is nothing wrong with people wanting to challenge themselves and pushing the boundaries of modelling in the pursuit of the most accurate possible models. It is just not for everybody and there is a trade of in terms of time taken and effort needed against possibly a small improvement in results. Rather like P4, the number of good quality, extensive  S7 layouts that you see with long trains running at good speeds is tiny. 

 

It is only fairly recently that I have taken a big interest in 7mm and have visited some of the specialist shows. Far more than in 4mm, there is a huge range of skills and abilities in the larger scales and I see many items for sale that only bear a passing resemblance to what they are supposed to be. The number of people who create work in 7mm to the standard of the best 4mm scenic modellers is small and many layouts have what I call a "dolls house" look, being almost toy like. And then I see something like the "Midland in London" thread on here and it opens my eyes to just what can be achieved.

 

But back to the OP,  I would be interested to know why you chose 32mm over 31'5mm. 

[iak]

Gauges, back to backs, crossing clearances?

Innocence is endangered by that which is unseen...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Horsetan]

....Innocence is endangered by that which is unseen...

 

sea-mines(2).jpg

 

For "mine" is the glory?

[ROSSPOP]

Warning !    This is what happens if you use 32mm gauge 7mm track.... locos wobble and trucks fall down the V crossings    

 

 

[Miss Prism]

Friggin' gorgeous Dukedog.

[Simond]

See here

 

http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/o-gauge-31-5-vs-32-mm.6180/

 

Best

Simon

[iak]

For "mine" is the glory?

[Miss Prism]

http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/o-gauge-31-5-vs-32-mm.6180/

 

Hmmm - You must be logged in to do that.

 

Western Thunder has always been very tempting to spend one's time on, but, as the old joke goes, I do wonder whether I should join any club that would allow a person like me to become a member...

[Captain Kernow]

Hmmm - You must be logged in to do that.

 

Western Thunder has always been very tempting to spend one's time on, but, as the old joke goes, I do wonder whether I should join any club that would allow a person like me to become a member...

Nice place Western Thunder, but very few sausages.

 

Seems to me that the relationship between 31.5mm gauge and 32 mm gauge is rather like that between OO-SF gauge and ordinary OO gauge.

[BG John]

Nice place Western Thunder, but very few sausages.

 

Seems to me that the relationship between 31.5mm gauge and 32 mm gauge is rather like that between OO-SF gauge and ordinary OO gauge.

Nah, it's more like the relationship between 18mm and 18.2mm EM, except that 18.2 is a bit nearer scale and runs better, and 31.5 is a bit further from scale and apparently runs better. I'm happy to be using 32mm or 31.5mm gauges as I see them pretty much as the 7mm scale equivalent of EM. OO is so far under scale already, that knocking a bit more off the gauge makes it pretty much 4ft gauge, that qualifies it as being narrow gauge, and not standard gauge at all!

 

It looks as though the copperclad O gauge track I've been given will need a complete, rather than a partial, rebuild, so will hopefully end up as 31.5mm gauge.

[Simond]

Ah, Didn't realise it was necessary to be logged in, I thought it was possible to see threads as a visitor.

 

Ok, it would not be proper to paste the whole thread, so here's my take on it, my post from this very morning.

 

"...

S7 looks nice but there's no RTR option which may be a deterrent for a general club, minimum corner radii are potentially challenging for a roundy-roundy.

 

31.5 looks better than 32, and is no more difficult providing you're building P&C anyway.

RTR stock will run on it, anyone who already has a collection of stock will be able to run on it too,

You can still use Peco track where you don't want to hand-build, fiddle yards or long main lines, for example.

There is no noticeable transition between 31.5 & 32.

Running of stock through 31.5 crossings is very noticeably better/smoother than 32mm.

 

I can't see any reason to start in 32mm, unless you can't or won't build track (or pay someone to do so), you've got shares in Peco, or you're going for coarse scale, which I guess is not an issue in this case.

 

..."

 

 

To which I should add that both Lionheart and Masterpiece do offer S7RTR, of which I was unaware when posting.

 

AFAIK, WT is pretty much sausage / pie free.

 

Best

Simon

Edited July 29, 2017 by Simond

[Nearholmer]

If, as I've heard stated many times, and as is stated in the item reproduced by Simon, one gets smother running through crossings with 31.5mm, the question that occurs to me is: why? Or, perhaps: how?

 

It ought to be possible to identify the source of the "not smoothness" inherent in the combination of GOG fine wheel and track standards, and illustrate it diagrammatically ....... which I've never seen done.

 

Kevin

 

(Those of a finescale disposition are advised not to look at my thread, because it could easily upset them, although post 71 is very relevant to this discussion)

Edited July 29, 2017 by Nearholmer

[81A Oldoak]

That comment says more about Cyril Freezer than it does about finescale modelling! I recall that he was not a huge fan of P4 either.

 

There is nothing wrong with people wanting to challenge themselves and pushing the boundaries of modelling in the pursuit of the most accurate possible models. It is just not for everybody and there is a trade of in terms of time taken and effort needed against possibly a small improvement in results. Rather like P4, the number of good quality, extensive  S7 layouts that you see with long trains running at good speeds is tiny. 

 

It is only fairly recently that I have taken a big interest in 7mm and have visited some of the specialist shows. Far more than in 4mm, there is a huge range of skills and abilities in the larger scales and I see many items for sale that only bear a passing resemblance to what they are supposed to be. The number of people who create work in 7mm to the standard of the best 4mm scenic modellers is small and many layouts have what I call a "dolls house" look, being almost toy like. And then I see something like the "Midland in London" thread on here and it opens my eyes to just what can be achieved.

 

But back to the OP,  I would be interested to know why you chose 32mm over 31'5mm. 

When I first dipped a tentative toe into 7mm scale 24 years ago it was to build a Slater's 7 plank open wagon kit and I don't think too many people troubled themselves with 31.5mm gauge then. I still find 32mm acceptable, especially from my typical viewing angles so see no need to change.  I visited a local show today and there was an 0 gauge layout that would probably fit into your "dolls house" classification. The buildings were quite crude, the signalling was completely wrong, the track was Peco and one could have spent the day disparaging the layout. But it didn't matter; the owner was clearly pleased with and proud of his layout. He was enjoying himself and engaging the viewers. 7mm scale is a very broad church ranging from tin-plate coarse scale to the museum standard fineries of some S7 and all places in between and we all seem to get along just fine. My model railway philosophy is driven by two basic tenets that, I believe, encompass all interests, inclinations and tastes. First, any model railway is better than no model railway. Secondly, model railways should be fun. Now, back to the goods office for Tonfanau Camp I am building in, er, 7mm scale.

[Jintyman]

As Craig aptly points out above, it is a can of worms, although I think there is somewhat less froth than the great OO-SF to OO debate!

 

I have built all my trackwork for Talyllyn to 31.5mm (O-MF) standards and have been overjoyed with the smooth transition of even light vehicles traversing the crossings.

I have always used a standard O Finescale B2B gauge on all my wheelsets after I found some Heljan coaching stock derailing, which showed up that they were too wide by about 1.5mm, closed up they performed perfectly.

I do agree that O-MF does look better, but I can only say in my opinion.

 

I will be using Peco BH flexitrack on my outdoor section and I have already made the transition off the tunnel turnout at Talyllyn to 32mm and I defy anyone to see it. I'm only using Peco as it seems more robust for outdoor use.

 

I did have a video of a Parkside Conflat traversing an O-MF turnout with absolutely no wheel drop through the crossing vee, it's earlier on in my Talyllyn thread.

3Link and Simond are two others that are utilising O-MF as a track standard (Unless I'm mistaken) and there is some explanation on their threads about their track building.

 

Jinty

[jim.snowdon]

If, as I've heard stated many times, and as is stated in the item reproduced by Simon, one gets smother running through crossings with 31.5mm, the question that occurs to me is: why? Or, perhaps: how?

 

It ought to be possible to identify the source of the "not smoothness" inherent in the combination of GOG fine wheel and track standards, and illustrate it diagrammatically ....... which I've never seen done.

 

Kevin

 

(Those of a finescale disposition are advised not to look at my thread, because it could easily upset them, although post 71 is very relevant to this discussion)

Kevin,

 

If you can get hold of a copy of Issue 99 of Model Railway Journal, you will find the article in which I explained it all.

 

Apart from the inconsistencies between the wheelset and track standards inherent in 32mm, the issue of wheel drop in crossings is all about the flangeway width and the amount of lateral slop between the wheels and the track. Reduce both and the wheel tread is supported as it crosses the diverging flangeway, instead of falling in the hole because it runs off the wing rail before reaching the crossing nose. the alternative, which you will be familiar with in the world of coarse scale, is to use much wider wheel treads.

 

Jim

[muddys-blues]

Michael if you can build your points to 31.5mm you will save the wheel drop, and if you have the time build the plain track the same as well, but if you don't have the time for the plain track just use Peco, unless you are doing GWR and want 2 bolt chairs .... or GNR then you want 4 bolt etc etc etc..... this is where you possibly open the can of worms dependent on what you really want.

 

PS Jinty's and 3 Link's 31.5mm track is lovely, look in on their threads,

 

Beast regards

Craig.

[Simond]

Beast regards????

 

Well, I thought we were all quite civilised here on RMW!!!

[jim.snowdon]

I've always enjoyed a comment from the late Cyril Freezer on page 151 of "The Model Railway Design Manual". Referring to Scale Seven, he says, "This system involves a slight increase in track gauge and exact scale wheel profiles, but is only distinguishable from 0 gauge by the large notices attached to layouts at exhibitions." I model to two standards simultaneously. Signalling, buildings, road vehicles, scenery, people etc are modelled to Scale Seven, while track and rolling stock are modelled to 7mm Finescale 32mm gauge.

If Cyril had been about now, he wouldn't have been able to spot the difference between track laid to 31.5mm (or even more so, to 31.25mm*) gauge and S7, apart from the fact that it doesn't require special wheels and trains run rather more frequently, and at nearer to proper speeds.

 

* The reference to 31.25mm gauge (0-SF) is that if you have 100% of wheels confirming to the fine standard, ie with flange widths of 0.75mm, you can happily narrow the gauge to 31.25mm, at which point the flangeways are almost the same as S7. They are what the eye picks up as being different to old-fashioned 32mm track; the difference between 31.25/31.5 and S&'s 33mm gauge is not noticeable to the eye unless you put the two together end-on, or put a rule across them. probably the best known testament to 31.25mm gauge is Kevin Wilson's Bucks Hill layout.

 

As an example of what can be done by reducing the gauge to fit the wheels, the picture below is of the diamond crossing on our club's exhibition layout (Grindley Brook - appearing at Warley this November). The gauge through the centre crossings is 31.25mm and trains with standard finescale wheels run through it happily, despite both roads being curved. I am certain that the same could not be achieved with any reliability in 32mm.

 

 

Jim

 

As a ps., Cyril Freezer was for some time an EM modeller.

Edited July 29, 2017 by jim.snowdon

[Nearholmer]

Thanks Jim, I shall borrow a copy.

 

"..... in the world of coarse scale, is to use much wider wheel treads." Indeed, it works a treat in coarse-0, and for LGB, and for the thousands of prototype narrow gauge industrial railways that use the same method. Not the thing here, though, clearly, given that the OP presumably wishes his railway to look like a standard gauge 'main line' operation.

 

Kevin