GTR Timetable Change 2018

[pete_mcfarlane]

Am I the only one that finds so many people on here have a high level of disdain for the people who operate the trains they depend on?

Lots of people on here have been quite rude about the RMT leadership. That's not the same as being rude about the people the RMT represent. 

[The Stationmaster]

One thing that is obvious from the situation on the opperating floor at Three Bridges is that the signallers are struggling to cope with all the changes.

 

Contrary to what the media may say this box uses panels of the enterance - exit type (NX to those in the trade) with NO AUTOMATIC ROUTE SETTING FACILITY even at busy places like East Croydon.

 

Given virtually every single service has a new headcode and timings (signallers get 'used to' timetables just as much as commuters - it's tough to keep on top of things when all you constantly have to reference reams of A4 paperwork to work out what needs to go where for every train. Add in the mix point failures or maintenance staff trying to gain access to the tracks then it's clear things are not as simple as many like to pretend.

 

It will take weeks fo signallers to get used to the new timetable and for their performance to get back to what it was previously.

 

I would have hoped that 'somebody' at Three Bridges, and all other involved signalboxes, had been given the time and information to enable simplifiers to be prepared in advance of the change.  While I agree it does take time to learn a service provision of helpfully formatted information can make a big difference and be enormously helpful.

Edited May 21, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[Glorious NSE]

Nice article on some of the background to it here:

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/the-cicadas-take-flight-explaining-the-may-timetable-changes/

[Mike Storey]

A lot of complaints appearing in the news from people using Northern too, although, as with the complaints about GTR, there is little that is specific enough to identify actual locations, trains or times. One thing is clear though, that Northern have caught Southernitis - about 20% of their trains were cancelled this morning (primarily around North Manchester) and the "explanation" by Northern was that they have not yet trained enough drivers for the new services. Not clear whether that was just route knowledge or traction, or both. Apparently they did not even start this until February, and were relying totally on voluntary rest day working, when ASLEF had suggested it should have started last Autumn. But it was also quoted that up to a quarter of trains scheduled through Thameslink were also cancelled, although the truth of that was acknowledged as awaiting confirmation.

 

I certainly do not underestimate the concerns of those people (on here and in the meeja) whose daily routine has become not inconsiderably messed about, or even vastly more uncomfortable, but I have yet to see anything which gauges the size of the problem in the south.

 

For example, one lady quoted was complaining about her train from Brighton not stopping at Clapham Junction anymore (she commutes to Putney), making her have to change at Redhill (or Haywards Heath, I forget which) on to an already busy train. Fair enough, he has a genuine complaint compared to what she was used to. But what I have not seen, in that example, is whether that change is designed to improve punctuality for a greater number of people, or that more trains, not from Brighton, will now stop at Clapham, because there is more demand on another line. So we do not have a full picture yet, just a series of anecdotes. To be fair, one or two passengers were quoted as saying their journey was now much faster and easier than it used to be. The head of what used to be called the TUCC, Transport Focus, said this morning was not total carnage, but not great either.

 

I guess the true picture will emerge only after a while.

[Dunsignalling]

The cynic in me attributes some journey times reducing this morning as being the serendipitous result of not having the cancelled ones clogging up the system.

 

ASLEF recommended commencing the required crew training from October, on a rostered basis, allowing seven months for the process, whilst GTR didn't begin it until February, allowing three months, and facilitated through voluntary rest-day working. 

 

ASLEF are usually (whatever else one might think about them), fairly on-the-ball in such matters, though it's quite feasible that GTR didn't follow their advice because they simply didn't have enough drivers to do things that way.

 

The result is clearly that GTR's way hasn't delivered the number of retrained drivers needed to deliver the new services on the due date.

 

What will be of interest, is seeing how long it takes GTR to catch up with the training backlog and get the thing working as intended. It is to be hoped that GTR aren't still the three-to-four months adrift of the timescale estimated by ASLEF to be necessary to prepare for the changes, that is implied by what we do know.

 

John  

Edited May 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[phil-b259]

I would have hoped that 'somebody' at Three Bridges, and all other involved signalboxes, had been given the time and information to enable simplifiers to be prepared in advance of the change.  While I agree it does take time to learn a service provision of helpfully formatted information can make a big difference and be enormously helpful.

 

A massive book summarising the changes was indeed circulated to signallers in advance (I have a copy) but there is only so much you can do in advance. Just as with many other things in life, signallers who have to manually operate panels / workstations (as opposed to letting a computer do it via ARS require practice to become fully conversant with the service pattern. Ultimately a experienced signaller operating a long standing timetable should not need to refer to the simplifiers most of the time because the service pattern becomes 2nd nature to them. At present though NOTHING is the same as it was last week and those extra seconds spent making sure you are setting the correct routes add up.

 

While I couldn't be absolutely sure, the basic BML timetable has been unchanged for decades (apart from the usual tweaks). Indeed the last big timetable re-wite on the ex Southern Region that comes close to this one involved SWT ages ago...

[roundhouse]

This morning I planned on catching the 06.59 off Redhill to LBG but it was cancelled. However I was surprised see the 07.09 arrive pretty much empty so being in the right place for the doors I had a good choice of ironing boards on a Great White Worm. Filled up at Redhill though.

Tonight is a different matter as the 17.00 via Redhill was cancelled aswell as the 17.18 Brighton service. By this time platform 4 & 5 were rammed forcing passengers to walk along the edge of the platform. Our 17.21 service arrived as an 8 car and already very busy. I managed to get on but many didn't.

 

Let's see how tomorrow goes.

[scouser]

Lots of people on here have been quite rude about the RMT leadership. That's not the same as being rude about the people the RMT represent.

 

Yes , it is!

[phil-b259]

Yes , it is!

 

No its not.

 

I can't stand the upper management of the RMT spouting all their socialist dogma and telling me the world would be wonderful if we all lived in some sort of Soviet utopia.

 

I (and several of my colleagues) am in the RMT for 2 reasons ONLY.

 

(i) To protect my pension, T&Cs and hopefully get a decent pay deal (although I'm not stupid enough to ignore the fact that rail staff have generally done rather well in recent years on that score compared to the likes of Nurses or even most private sector employees)

(ii) To help me defend myself from management at work if they try and and pin the blame on me for something.

 

I have zero interest in Cuba and nor do I think that nationalisation will do anything to improve the railway setup in this country given the performance of the DfT / transport ministers (of all parties I hasten to add) and see no evidence the RMT leadership are any better.

Edited May 21, 2018 by phil-b259

[pete_mcfarlane]

It's also worth comparing the RMT and ASLEF responses.

 

The RMT have headed off on a massive rant calling for re-nationalisation, attacking the TOCs, and claiming that passenger safety is being compromised. None of which is really relevant to the actual problems. 

 

ASLEF have told people why they think the changes went wrong (the project plan was unrealistic because it didn't allow enough time for driver training). 

[RANGERS]

I’m still bemused at some of the changes to EMT services, the 6.38 from Corby now eliminates Bedford and Luton stops, but is timed to take 4 minutes longer than previously. This morning, despite a signal check which brought it to a stand at Harpenden, it pulled into LStP at 7.45, a full 10 mins ahead of time and a few mins ahead of its previous 7.48 arrival.

 

The service tailed a Bedford - Gatwick service, its St Albans stop resulting in the Harpenden signal check, but ran through from there slowing only beyond Kentish Town for no apparent reason, the road into LStP was clear and the platform empty, maybe 11 mins early was too embarrassing! The train remains at ten cars but ran to only about 50% capacity today, about right for its normal arrival at Bedford, so why have the Bedford and Luton stops been dropped? I can understand Bedford to some extent, there didn’t look to be a spare platform as we ran through but Luton?

 

To add insult to Harpenden commuters misery, the sight of a half empty train standing but inaccessible to them after, as I learned later in the day, two of their three peak services had been disrupted, must have left them apoplectic!

[Ron Ron Ron]

I (and several of my colleagues) am in the RMT for 2 reasons ONLY.

 

 

 

Although not employed or involved in the industry, I'm pretty certain Phil that 90%+ of your colleagues would agree with you.

[scouser]

No its not.

 

I can't stand the upper management of the RMT spouting all their socialist dogma and telling me the world would be wonderful if we all lived in some sort of Soviet utopia.

 

I (and several of my colleagues) am in the RMT for 2 reasons ONLY.

 

(i) To protect my pension, T&Cs and hopefully get a decent pay deal (although I'm not stupid enough to ignore the fact that rail staff have generally done rather well in recent years on that score compared to the likes of Nurses or even most private sector employees)

(ii) To help me defend myself from management at work if they try and and pin the blame on me for something.

 

I have zero interest in Cuba and nor do I think that nationalisation will do anything to improve the railway setup in this country given the performance of the DfT / transport ministers (of all parties I hasten to add) and see no evidence the RMT leadership are any better.

I mention the anti union rhetoric for the main reason that the unions, leadership or otherwise , did not make these changes.

Anybody who wants to blame people should be looking at the GTR management. The railway workers have been left to try and make it work, been there done that.

As for being a member of a union, you get a vote regarding the leadership, use it.

Oh, and remember what the railway workers lot was like before they had unions.

When I said it was the same as insulting all railway workers, for a lot of union bashes it is just that.

[Ron Ron Ron]

....the unions, leadership or otherwise , did not make these changes....

 

It's not their job to, either.

The role of the unions is not to run the railway.

 

....Anybody who wants to blame people should be looking at the GTR management. The railway workers have been left to try and make it work,....

 

The management should rightly take the blame if their plans are flawed, badly laid out or implemented.

However the railway workers are there to make it work or try to make it work and their union shouldn't be trying to make political capital out of these events.

 

....remember what the railway workers lot was like before they had unions.....

 

In fairness, I haven't seen anyone here suggest otherwise.

 

 

.

 

 

.

[great central]

It's not their job to, either.

The role of the unions is not to run the railway.

 

 

The management should rightly take the blame if their plans are flawed, badly laid out or implemented.

However the railway workers are there to make it work or try to make it work and their union shouldn't be trying to make political capital out of these events.

 

 

In fairness, I haven't seen anyone here suggest otherwise.

 

 

.

 

 

.

The TOC is merely the whipping boy, all the alterations are basically at the behest of the government/Dft. They dictate pretty much everything, Thameslink is a government project through and through to appease London. As for the EMT alterations that is to allow the Thameslink service to fit and stuff the East Midlands, we won't be getting an electrified main line and time soon, once again courtesy of the government.

[John M Upton]

The role of the unions is not to run the railway.

Unfortunately there are those who think that Unions are in charge of running the railway which is part of the current problems.

 

Myself, after negative experiences of Unions in both my current and previous employment I have taken the personal decision to have nothing to do with them whatsoever.

 

Does mean I have to buy my own diary of course....

[Ronnie MB]

I can’t recall the exact wording but I am reminded of a line in the Yes Minister episode about an integrated transport policy:

 

“It’s no longer enough to blame management when there’s an r in the month and the unions when there isn’t: management and the unions have finally got together and are saying the government’s fault.”

 

The more things change the more they stay the same?

[Ron Ron Ron]

Some of you may have been listening to BBC 5 Live this morning.

They heavily featured the timetable changes on their breakfast news programme and had planned to devote the following phone-in and discussion hour from 0900 to 1000, to the subject.

 

The problem was, that despite only 2 commuter callers being negative......plus two ill informed pensioners (one from Wales and the other from Yorkshire) phoning in to say it was all wonderful in the olden days and a cup ion tea was only 6 pence, .....the rest of the callers phoning in were positive or optimistic. Even saying that this morning's journey was faster, or on time for a change.

 

The disappointment from the BBC team was palpable.

Co-presenter Nicky Campbell seemed mildly bemused by it all.

It was so funny that their hopes of a doom, gloom and disaster story were not coming to fruition.

They basically wound down the story after half an hour and moved on to something else.

 

The BBC had been winding up to a "major scandal" story all weekend, as had many of the other news media outlets.

All they've got left now is the bleating of Mick Cash to report on.

 

 

.

[Ronnie MB]

Could that have anything to do with the fact that the commuters affected by problems might have been at work (or still on their way there) between 9 and 10 in the morning?

[Zomboid]

I (and several of my colleagues) am in the RMT for 2 reasons ONLY.

 

(i) To protect my pension, T&Cs and hopefully get a decent pay deal (although I'm not stupid enough to ignore the fact that rail staff have generally done rather well in recent years on that score compared to the likes of Nurses or even most private sector employees)

(ii) To help me defend myself from management at work if they try and and pin the blame on me for something.

They do a very good job of those things. Though not all rail staff have done well - those of us in the management grades have had a good 5 years (if not more) of real terms pay cuts.

The senior management at the RMT do need to change the record on nationalisation though. BR was quite capable of introducing a new timetable in an inelegant fashion, too...

[Ron Ron Ron]

Could that have anything to do with the fact that the commuters affected by problems might have been at work (or still on their way there) between 9 and 10 in the morning?

 

 

Most ringing in had travelled that morning.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I mention the anti union rhetoric for the main reason that the unions, leadership or otherwise , did not make these changes.

But nobody is being anti-union. There have been some very specific criticisms of the RMT leadership and what they have been saying today, but that's completely different from a general attack on trade unions.

 

I don't think anyone has even mentioned the TSSA, whose members probably took most of the stick today from delayed passengers.

[phil-b259]

As for being a member of a union, you get a vote regarding the leadership, use it.

 

 

Its a fact lot of good having a vote when all the candidates are on a mission to go one better than the late Bob Crow! Practically every single nomination I have ever seen is in support of an ardent socialist who believes nationalising everything, eternal class struggle and vilifying management.

 

To be effective, a good trade union needs to know which battles to fight and when to compromise. Standing there like a certain Danish King as the tide comes in gets you nowhere - and with the Conservatives being in charge at Westminster* all this socialist retorioc does nothing but provoke those right wingers only to happy to 'Break the Union' as Mr Wilkinson put it several years ago with plenty of ammunition!

 

The RMT is a trade union NOT a political party and its about time certain people in the organisation paid attention to that fact.

Edited May 21, 2018 by phil-b259

[RANGERS]

Most ringing in had travelled that morning.

I doubt that demonstrates anything, those who rang in had probably made it to work, those who didn’t were most likely still trying!

 

It wasn’t a great day, GN seem to have been the worst hit both yesterday and today, and considering the whole exercise has been three years in the pipeline, albeit the final details were only circulated to the TOCs last summer, it’s a poor reflection on them that they couldn’t make it happen.

[John M Upton]

Wilkinson is the proverbial Rosetta Stone in all this. He hates trade unions so he effectively pushed all the right buttons and goaded them into a fight and they walked straight into the trap and now they cannot escape without losing face.

 

Effectively Wilkinson has abused his power and (unelected) position to pursue a personal vendetta.

Edited May 21, 2018 by John M Upton