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Rail tank wagon branding and lettering





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#1 robmanchester

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 00:17

Hello,

 

Does anybody have any good references concerning tank wagon lettering. I am struggling to establish running dates for RTR 4mm tank wagons from the likes of Bachmann(TTA and TEA )  and Heljan. Paul Bartlett's excellent photo site is great but another way of finding out when lettering schemes were in use would be good. Many ( if not all ) the tanks would have been in private ownership but there would be regulations regarding hazards and small lettering such as Calib etc. Some oil/petrol companies would have only existed for a short period of time.

 

For example a Bachmann silver TTA tank in Fina livery is listed as era 5/6 in a catalogue which covers 1957-1971 but are the livery aspects correct for the whole period ? Some 14ton tanks are listed as era 3/4 which is 1923-1956 which is a long period.

 

Also when using decals from Railtec and Fox you often don't get any indication on transfer positioning and running dates etc.

 

Many thanks

Rob

 





#2 Steamport Southport

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 01:01

Do you mean references as in books?

 

I don't think you can go wrong with this. Not quite up to date as it was published in 1999. But it's packed full of information including drawings and works photographs. I paid much more for my copy and it was worth every penny.

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/...-the-rails.html

 

 

 

Jason


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#3 railtec-models

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 09:32


 

Also when using decals from Railtec and Fox you often don't get any indication on transfer positioning and running dates etc.

 

Many thanks

Rob

 

I would love to have the luxury of being able to take the time to provide more rounded information on the product pages, in addition to the existing images of the packs and text descriptions of what the packs contain. But - the simple reality is that if I provided detailed info on positioning of transfers for every single offering then the yearly output would probably be something in the region of ~50 packs as opposed to ~400 new releases a year, and my inbox would be even more riddled with "I don't mean to hassle you, but how are you getting on with <insert name of new item that I want>". Besides, positioning of detail varies hugely to the extent that it would be madness to try to agree on any standard that wasn't ex-works. Equally with running dates - even getting modellers to agree on something as this wouldn't be an easy task. The general belief would appear to be that if modellers are confident to customise vehicles then there's probably a sufficient degree of confidence to do a bit of research into what is being modelled in the period it's being modelled in. There are also a ton of resources on forums and popular photo sites of course, which is just as well as even us manufacturers who live and breathe this kind of thing 24/7/364 don't have the breadth and depth of knowledge to cover all railway insignia.

 

Cheers Jason for the link - somehow that book had slipped me by. I can equally recommend Petroleum Rail Tank Wagons of Britain (Tourret, 2009) - it's an aboslute gem.


Edited by railtec-models, 17 May 2018 - 09:39 .

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#4 Dunsignalling

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 10:33

Hello,

 

Does anybody have any good references concerning tank wagon lettering. I am struggling to establish running dates for RTR 4mm tank wagons from the likes of Bachmann(TTA and TEA )  and Heljan. Paul Bartlett's excellent photo site is great but another way of finding out when lettering schemes were in use would be good. Many ( if not all ) the tanks would have been in private ownership but there would be regulations regarding hazards and small lettering such as Calib etc. Some oil/petrol companies would have only existed for a short period of time.

 

For example a Bachmann silver TTA tank in Fina livery is listed as era 5/6 in a catalogue which covers 1957-1971 but are the livery aspects correct for the whole period ? Some 14ton tanks are listed as era 3/4 which is 1923-1956 which is a long period.

 

 

That's the weakness of the era system, in my opinion.

 

I much preferred what Airfix/GMR did, which was to state when a livery first appeared. That is the only reliable thing, as new, or newly repainted wagons will have frequently been seen with others carrying earlier styles (and still newer ones later in their careers). Old liveries hung on a surprisingly long time if vehicles hadn't needed repainting..

 

There were, for example, odd parcels vans still running around in LMS livery after BR had stopped painting coaches in crimson and cream.

 

The only real answer is personal study of photographs and books that cover your chosen prototypes, area and period.

 

Nobody else can really do that for you unless you are lucky enough to find someone whose interests exactly match yours.

 

John


Edited by Dunsignalling, 17 May 2018 - 10:37 .

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#5 robmanchester

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 23:20

Hi John, Jason,

 

Thanks for the info in your replies. I have ordered the book from the HMRS.

 

Steve,

 

Thanks for your reply. Hope you didn't think I was complaining that you didn't include info in the transfer packs - apologies if it came over that way. your transfers are excellent - I haven't actually ordered from you but have used a few of the products and they are superb. I have a number of transfers to order at some point when I get my act together. The book you mentioned sounds nice but doesn't seem to be available in it's later edition ( 2009 ) at present. I will okk out for a copy.

 

Rob

 



#6 Enterprisingwestern

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 06:55

Cheers Jason for the link - somehow that book had slipped me by. I can equally recommend Petroleum Rail Tank Wagons of Britain (Tourret, 2009) - it's an aboslute gem.

 

Don't forget the previous book, there is information in there not in the second book.

 

Mike.


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#7 Fat Controller

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 07:47

Don't forget the previous book, there is information in there not in the second book.

 

Mike.

Other books worth looking out for include 'Modern Private Owner Wagons on British Rail' and 'Private Owner Wagons in Colour' by David Ratcliffe.


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#8 cctransuk

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 08:37

Hello,

 

Does anybody have any good references concerning tank wagon lettering. I am struggling to establish running dates for RTR 4mm tank wagons from the likes of Bachmann(TTA and TEA )  and Heljan. Paul Bartlett's excellent photo site is great but another way of finding out when lettering schemes were in use would be good. Many ( if not all ) the tanks would have been in private ownership but there would be regulations regarding hazards and small lettering such as Calib etc. Some oil/petrol companies would have only existed for a short period of time.

 

For example a Bachmann silver TTA tank in Fina livery is listed as era 5/6 in a catalogue which covers 1957-1971 but are the livery aspects correct for the whole period ? Some 14ton tanks are listed as era 3/4 which is 1923-1956 which is a long period.

 

Also when using decals from Railtec and Fox you often don't get any indication on transfer positioning and running dates etc.

 

Many thanks

Rob

 

It's called research; you know - looking things up in books and online. Are you really trying to reproduce the prototype without even a photo? Good luck with that!

 

Modelling isn't just buying RTR models and, perhaps, putting new transfers on them. Those of us who do the job properly have probably spent as much, if not more, on reference books than we have on the models themselves.

 

This forum is an excellent source for information, but it's unreasonable to expect those who buy reference books to do research for those who don't.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.


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#9 HillsideDepot

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 09:43

It's called research; you know - looking things up in books and online. Are you really trying to reproduce the prototype without even a photo? Good luck with that!

 

Modelling isn't just buying RTR models and, perhaps, putting new transfers on them. Those of us who do the job properly have probably spent as much, if not more, on reference books than we have on the models themselves.

 

This forum is an excellent source for information, but it's unreasonable to expect those who buy reference books to do research for those who don't.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

And for many of us that is a big part of the fun. Even after I complete a model, if its something really unusual, I'll occasionally do a quick Google search to see if anything new has appeared to fill in any gaps. But sometimes you have to accept an educated guess. An example would be my Tunnel Inspection Coach DW150144. I figured if I couldn't find the info I wanted, it possibly didn't exist. But, my model was based on the old Hornby coach, and they have now done them as a modern super detail version (and the correct hand, which'll save a lot of cutting and shutting) so things that have come to light since the first model will go towards the second.

 

A mate of mine will often call be to check on details of things, once he has exhausted his references. Not because I'm an expert, but because I'm slightly older than him and therefore more active, and with a camera, in his chosen time period. We were trying to figure out roof mods and boiler blanking plates on a particular class 47 just last Sunday. No definitive conclusion on that one, but our combined efforts uncovered a few other relevant facts.

 

Said mate works on the railway and when he was learning HST stock the instructor, himself an acknowledged expert on the subject, was surprised at the knowledge he already had of the subject. "Of course, I'm a railway modeller", came the response!

OK, we've strayed from rail tank cars, but I felt John's comments deserved more than an "Agree".


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#10 robmanchester

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 17:55

It's called research; you know - looking things up in books and online. Are you really trying to reproduce the prototype without even a photo? Good luck with that!

 

Modelling isn't just buying RTR models and, perhaps, putting new transfers on them. Those of us who do the job properly have probably spent as much, if not more, on reference books than we have on the models themselves.

 

This forum is an excellent source for information, but it's unreasonable to expect those who buy reference books to do research for those who don't.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Hi John,

Thanks for your post. No, I agree with you . My original post has thrown up some books that will be very helpful.

 

Rob



#11 Clive Mortimore

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 19:21

Hi Rob

 

A couple of more books on private owner wagons in the BR period to add to the list are David Larkin's "Non-Pool Freight Stock 1948-68" Volume one, Kestrel Books (ISBN 978-1-905505-40-1) and Volume two (ISBN 978-1-905505-41-8). Volume one covers Fina tanks.