Heljan Beyer garratt

[Free At Last]

Similar to what I experienced.

Free At Last, on 07 Aug 2014 - 13:17, said:

Just put mine on some rollers and noticed one end is running faster than the other. Hope that running in cures this.

Has anyone found what the problem is regarding the front lamp. Mine is lit but not as bright as the rear one. Wondering if it may just be the light inside the tank missaligned with the lens.

[youtube=]

 

Edit - Sorry about the sound track (radio phone in programme), I couldn't find any classical music.

 

 

Free At Last, on 07 Aug 2014 - 14:34, said:

Well after running on the rollers for about 10 mins I noticed it was starting to slow down then suddenly stopped dead showing a short on my controller. I turned it off then on again and now it is only running at the bunker end.

 

[bertiedog]

I have opened up the Garratt, and taken out the motors and tested them, they both work OK with no load, with low ampage and fairly low noise.

 

However connected up to the flywheel and the gears they are being strained somewhat by the load, even with the wheels off the ground, with the current going up about 60%. This does not leave much leeway for the load under running conditions, as the current is then about .85 amp per motor.

 

I tested the motor on a dyno, and drew a graph from no load to near stall, and the stall current is not much more than the loaded, and occurs at about 9 volts, indicating than further voltage driving more current through the windings is just producing extra heat.

 

The heat is obviously able to melt the cheap commutator.  DCC may make the current higher as at full output they apply more than 12 volts

 

These sorts of fault conditions usually indicate the magnets are not powerful enough to deal with the load. With the small diameter the magnets are really quite thin, and I think this is the basic problem.

 

The motors are just under rated for the heavy duty expected of them in the Garratt. They are a cheap type.

 

It may be inconsistency of Chinese quality control that some examples appear to run OK, but the motor is just not suitable for the job. It should have been bigger diameter and a 5pole skewed slot type as a minimum.

 

Frankly even a standard Bachmann three pole can motor would outperform these poor motors,

 

The changes to fit the small Maxon, or other coreless equivalent are numerous, it would not just drop in as the motor shaft supports the flywheel, and the Maxon cannot do this.

 

So extra bearings are needed to support the flywheel, which could be made small length to gain space. It would need a bearing on each end, with the UJ outside the flywheel to allow a bearing before the wheel. Then another bearing at the back, and a new UJ or flexible between the flywheel and the motor.

 

I will do a CAD of the space and the requirements and see what can be designed to fit the available space.

 

The rest of the chassis runs relatively freely, I do not think it causes overloading as such. It is not important to use spur gears only with coreless motors, it is merely they cannot take an end thrust by running worm drives directly.

 

I will take a few days to sort out how the bits fit together.

 

Stephen

Edited April 7, 2016 by bertiedog

[Colin_McLeod]

Setting aside for a moment the quality of the motors themselves, is it feasible to get them both to run at the same speed by the introduction of a resistance in the circuit of the faster one?

[amdaley]

Setting aside for a moment the quality of the motors themselves, is it feasible to get them both to run at the same speed by the introduction of a resistance in the circuit of the faster one?

I suppose it might be possible if you could find the room.

It all seems very tight in there.

[Golden Fleece 30]

I suppose it might be possible if you could find the room.

It all seems very tight in there.

 

There is a reasonable amount of space in the firebox/boiler if you are leaving it with the connectors for the PCB board. Alternatively if this is removed run wires to the firebox area without all the other paraphernalia otherwise as Tony says it is very tight in either unit.  I don't know what physical size resisters you are looking at but possibly they may fit in the frames from below?

 

Garry 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Golden Fleece 30

[Izzy]

If you go here:  http://www.emgauge70s.co.uk/index.html, choose site map and then December 2015 you will see that they have had some issues with motor failures in Heljan CL15's & 16's and are currently trying Mitsumi motors as replacements. I am not quite sure if the round can motors used in these and the railbuses are exactly the same as those in the BG (I am not going to strip any of mine down again just to find out but it would be logical), then this would seem to suggest that it isn't trying to run two motors together in the same loco that is the problem but as Stephen has discovered the motors themselves.

 

Izzy

[bertiedog]

Setting aside for a moment the quality of the motors themselves, is it feasible to get them both to run at the same speed by the introduction of a resistance in the circuit of the faster one?

Maybe better with two diodes wired in reverse parallel, on the faster motor, assuming DC control, there is a voltage drop across the conducting diode, better than a resistor, which will heat up. Any silicon diode of above an amp rating will do. The pair are in series with the motor, two needed for reversing operation. They drop about 1.2 volts. If too little to get the motors to run the same then you have very miss matched motors.

Stephen

[Grovenor]

 

there is a voltage drop across the conducting diode, better than a resistor, which will heat up.

And so will the diode! W=IV applies regardless as to whether the dissipation is in a resistor or a diode.

The diode has an advantage but that is not it.

Regards

Edited April 7, 2016 by Grovenor

[bertiedog]

A cure only for tinkerers would be to re-wind the motors, relatively easy as they are basic three pole, find a motor with a decent commutator that fits the shaft, and assemble a new armature. Most cheap half decent motors have commutators that do not melt. Old slot car motors had ceramic ones, but larger shafts, so sleeving would be needed,

The re-wind could be a gauge of wire thinner or more, and be hand wound using measured lengths, and coated with thin epoxy resin.

Even not replacing the existing commutator if in good condition, would work with a re-wind, as the max current would be lowered, less current, less heat. More turns would favour the small magnets better.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

And so will the diode! W=IV applies regardless as to whether the dissipation is in a resistor or a diode.

The diode has an advantage but that is not it.

Regards

The diode does not heat the same way as the resistor, a junctions loss is not resistive as such, it just needs more voltage applied to start the conduction phase, at which point the other motor should have more voltage in relation to the one with a diode. The resistive action of the diode does heat it up, but at the lower voltage of normal running it will be slight compared to a resistor. The formula applies, but the applied voltage will be less the diode drop to the motor. The other motor faces a higher voltage than the one with the diode.

 

As the top casting over the motor is big, then resistors could be used fitting them in drilled holes with heat sink compound. The metal would dissipate the heat easily. get some 1 ohm resistors and chain them till the speeds match, then use the equivalent value in one resistor.

Stephen.

Edited April 7, 2016 by bertiedog

[Golden Fleece 30]

I don't know about reassembling the motors, I had to break off the end cap to get to the armature and then the brush arms were totally useless also. Very soft bronze that broke up on the bent tabs so none of those parts were usable afterwards. Removing the flywheel bent the armature shaft.

[Grovenor]

The diode does not heat the same way as the resistor, a junctions loss is not resistive as such, it just needs more voltage applied to start the conduction phase, at which point the other motor should have more voltage in relation to the one with a diode. The resistive action of the diode does heat it up, but at the lower voltage of normal running it will be slight compared to a resistor. The formula applies, but the applied voltage will be less the diode drop to the motor. The other motor faces a higher voltage than the one with the diode.

Stephen.

The heating is the same at the same volt drop and current, the advantage of the diode is that it gives a constant volt drop whereas the resistor volt drop increases as the current increases. Neither will neccessarily match two motors through the speed range, it will be a trial and error process to see if there is any practical benefit.

Regards

[robmcg]

I too have had good experiences with Hattons, only one complaint and that was quickly and efficiently sorted, I have a Garratt  but have never run it, just wondering, Rob how long did you test them for please?

Rgds.......Mike

 

Just up and down a 4-foot  test track, not really a test at all of the motors, just that the mechanism was functioning correctly and smoothly, rods and motion all ok. I am primarily a collector, buyer and seller, and enjoy photographing models with all kinds of editing effects. So my input here is simply about my experiences with Hattons (all good).

 

I have seen Youtube videos of Garratts running with long trains, sometimes at a scale 100mph, and whether or not these resulted in failures I do not know, but contributors to this thread clearly have had serious issues.

 

I think Hattons should offer money back in full for any model with burned out wiring and/or motors an claim it off Heljan for supplying a model in the case of burned out mechanism as not fit for purpose, as it would be rather hard and pointless to pretend that running the engine in a normal way and burning out the motor was some kind of pretence.   Maybe they use their discretion and refund anyway?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Setting aside for a moment the quality of the motors themselves, is it feasible to get them both to run at the same speed by the introduction of a resistance in the circuit of the faster one?

 Were I interested in having one of these, my first move would have been to fit a decoder per motor. My usual choice, the very economical Lenz standard, has successfully matched the most disparate motor characteristics among current RTR, all the way through the speed range. (All locos are assigned into one of four groups, three of which groups are speed matched to enable 'any with any' combination for a variety of operating purposes.)

[Golden Fleece 30]

I have seen Youtube videos of Garratts running with long trains, sometimes at a scale 100mph, and whether or not these resulted in failures I do not know, but contributors to this thread clearly have had serious issues.

 

I imagine you may be referring to my Garratt at 100 mph and probably a long train with 18 coaches but none of this should have any detrimental effect on a loco.  No manufacturer ever puts a note in with a loco saying "do not run at more than 1/2 speed of your controller" or "do not put more than 15 wagons on" etc.  If a loco slips YES there is something wrong with the owner trying to overload it otherwise there should not be a problem at whatever speed etc you run it at.

[JSpencer]

Generally both chassis should run the same. If one is a lot faster than the other, then it needs to looked at.

 

This model when working fine is capable of hauling a realistic load without problems.

 

I never convert to DCC (one or 2 chips) until I am satisfied that it's running qualities are fine under DC first. DCC won,t fix a poor chassis and you will probably burn a chip out as well trying.

[Drotto]

There have been many reviews of the Beyer Garratt since it came out but I have not seen one comment about the alignment of the coupler pockets. They point upwards at quite a pronounced angle to such a degree that when I fitted kadees to mine, they would barely remain coupled to anything else. I raised the matter with Hattons and eventually they admitted that there was a problem but nothing could be done about it. So when they sent me the third attempt to get me a sample that was acceptable with regard to other quality problems I found (the first one died after 3 laps of our club layout, the second arrived with half of the factory fitted detail parts in the bottom of the box) they supplied me with a spare pair of pony trucks to experiment with. I solved the problem by resetting the pivot arm to get the couplings to line up, but this does mean that the rear brake block just misses the top of the track. I spoke to a Heljan UK rep at Warley and his reply was that Kadee fitment was not a UK requirement. This is a cop out - even tension locks will be out of alignment. I hope they get their next steam outline loco coupling alignment right. However, what a wonderful beast. Min just sits in a spur in the loco depot with an occasional light engine run to the  fiddle yard and back. It is maybe time for another trip round the club layout with a train of mineral wagons that we have there.

[46256]

My frustration is simple...my chosen model location Water Orton ...during the era 1950 to 1975... Garratts were a common loco type in the early years of that period. I had two examples running prior to my buying this beautiful Heljan version. A plastic kitmaster....modified to the earlier pre rotating bunker style. The model I'm very pleased to say is still in my possession, not least as it was bought ...at that time unadapted or motorised for my youngst son in a forlorn attempt to interest him in my hobby. A certain irony however as he quite rightly wants to inherit it on my demise. He is a fully qualified engineer and loves the machinery if not so much the rail aspect.

 

The. Second a ks nucast.....also with twin comet chassis...and portescap motor was sold in anticipation of buying the more refined Heljan version.

 

The dilemma I have is plain. I want a rotating bunker. Version of the garratt....i want it to work after months of inactivity as does the rest of my stock. I would gladly pay.....and yes I would to have the faults on the Heljan version rectified......I'm just not certain that a replacement motor from Heljan.....or hattons would solve the long term problems. In conclusion I am debating how to have this model rectified to my standards. I am fortunate that I have a friend who is a model engineer who is assessing the options.....if I was offered my original nu cast model back at twice the price I would accept it...and dump this pretty but useless load of.......back to Liverpool .....

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hello Drotto, I have mentioned the NEM pockets on here being the cause of pony truck derailments. They are too high and have the bufferbeams resting on them. Heljan knew this problem and filed a chamfer on the leading edge to lower the chassis. It still derailed until I fitted smaller wheels and since then no problem. My kadees have no issues and if you look at the You Tube videos you will see this.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... I hope they get their next steam outline loco coupling alignment right. ...

 They did on the O2 tender, based on my sample of one! Not tried the pony truck pocket, as I model a railway with working turntables on which the sun always shines.

 

Now maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't consider a pony truck mounted coupler as practical for anything like the load a freight heavy can potentially haul. It's simply an unstable arrangement, and asking for trouble. Better by far to body mount the coupler of choice. The short wheelbase of the two independent engine bogies will make this trouble free even on set track radii. (I don't expect RTR manufacturers to know this stuff, triumph of experience over hope.)

[46256]

having vented my frustrations last night...thought I would calm myself down with a bit a garratt therapy. My kitmaster/ scratch tender version....a proper motor....portescap sun shining through my loft window...Water orton as it was mid fifties....glorious

[46256]

Heljan garratt now remotored with mashimas...smooth running ....that is now a extra fifty pounds worth of a proven excellent motors replacing the original burnt out ones . That does not include plus my friends justified fee for fitting them ...

My desire to match the running capabilities , to the superlative looks of this model have justified this expense. The sadness I I would have paid the extra to have these quality motors from the outset .

 

One unresolved.matter .....just prior to handing my loco over to my engineer friend for diagnosis and repair I had ordered the replacement motors from Hong Kong as shown on this thread.They duly arrived, excellent service....however by then my friemd had recommended the mashima 10 series and had ordered them . I asked him to fit the mashimas ....he however advised .the replacement HK motors....at threes pounds each were in his opinion a worthy replacement to the original fitted motors. I decided given this models importance to.my modelling era.layout to invest in the mashimas......result my garratt has been travelling around my layout ....well worth the extra money invested.....perhaps others should have come to that conclusion at an earlier stage?

[bertiedog]

I have refitted the originals for the time being, as at normal speeds and loads they do not overheat. I am not implying that others have overloaded them, but it is tempting to test the Garret with large loads. By all means fit the Mashima, the cheaper HK were mentioned to show that Heljan could have fitted better for the price. After all two brand new Maxon motors would fit, but cost as much each as the loco!

I think Heljan simply failed to realise the loading on the motors would be so high for the motor they chose.

 

Stephen

[46256]

 

Sorry the conclusion ....to have fitted motors equal in performance to the excellent look of this model....something courtesy of my friends expertise, and mashima quality control , I now possess

[adb968008]

Sorry the conclusion ....to have fitted motors equal in performance to the excellent look of this model....something courtesy of my friends expertise, and mashima quality control , I now possess

Any chance of a picture of the motors / how fitted ?

 

Thanks in advance if you can

Edited May 6, 2016 by adb968008