Heljan Beyer garratt

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...How would any prospective litigant present evidence of these multiple falures btw. Video footage,? Layout demo in the courtroom? One other avenue...IF you feel you have an overwhelmingly convincing case (in your case almost certainly) would be to get all your ducks in a row..i.e. assemble all your evidence of failures and then approach the retailer with notice of your intent and then see what happens...

 A demonstration of a running loco, and then a whole heap of non-runners would be enough proof. (You never know, the running loco might oblige by failing while being demonstrated.) What it comes to is that any party with the problem has to be sufficiently motivated to go through the process, unless of course the vendor decides on being informed of the intent to lodge a claim to propose a settlement.

[Free At Last]

I wonder, did they ever receive any spares from Heljan?

http://www.hattons.co.uk/garrattspares

[amdaley]

My problem with the Garratts was not that they were of poor & cheap design & construction.

My main problem with the whole affair was that Hattons knew or should have known of all the failures yet they continued to send out the models to unsuspecting customers.

This to me was a blatant insult to customers many of whom  were  loyal Hattons customers of many years standing.

 

I only bought one Garratt having waited for it for three years. It lasted one circuit of my layout at low speed.

Yes I received a refund when I returned the failed model but had to ask for a refund of my return postage.That would have never happened in what I would call the old Hattons.

 

I said at the time that I felt there was a change at Hattons & many have experienced that chance since.

In the past I would just turn to Hattons when I needed something.

Not anymore. To me now Hattons are just another online retailer just like the rest.

[amdaley]

I wonder, did they ever receive any spares from Heljan?

http://www.hattons.co.uk/garrattspares

 

I wonder did they ever ask for any spares from Heljan 

[Ian Hargrave]

 A demonstration of a running loco, and then a whole heap of non-runners would be enough proof. (You never know, the running loco might oblige by failing while being demonstrated.) What it comes to is that any party with the problem has to be sufficiently motivated to go through the process, unless of course the vendor decides on being informed of the intent to lodge a claim to propose a settlement.

........which was the whole point of my post.

[jjb1970]

Something to remember is that from a customer perspective this is a Hattons issue, not a Heljan issue (unless Hattons also supplied some of the models to other retailers to sell). Then it is for Hattons to resolve any legal liabilities between themselves and Heljan separately, any such issues are not the concern of us customers and would be a matter for Hattons and Heljan.
A good sense check for anybody considering the small claims process is to talk to your local trading standards department (assuming it hasn’t been cut….), they provide very good advice and in my experience are very good at providing an honest assessment of whether you should consider taking action or not. Obviously any legal case has a risk of losing but if they advise you that you have a good case then go for it, if they advise you that you don’t have a hope then I’d also recommend taking that on-board. Clearly, any advice will only be of value if you yourself are honest in the version of events you offer.
Apathy is indeed the friend of unscrupulous retailers. I was told by trading standards that one well known national chain never agrees to fulfil its legal obligations under the consumer protection act unless the customer pursues them legally as they know that the overwhelming majority of people will never go beyond whinging. Perhaps more tellingly, he told me the retailer also established that after a reasonable interval of sulking those same customers would return to shop again. And he was in no doubt that this was a fairly widespread attitude.
My advice is that IF Hattons do not give you any joy then use the small claims process. At worst you’ll lose a few quid (it’ll be less than you’ve lost buying dud models) and you’ll be able to move on and write it off as a bad experience knowing you had a go. If you win then you’ll get proper legal redress.
Something I’d say is to consider flipping this and looking at it from the perspective you’d apply if it was something like a washing machine. If I bought a washing machine and the motor burnt out after a week I’d send it back, no ifs or buts. If it was suggested that I could buy a replacement motor from Alibaba and use a file to modify the motor mount etc to take a new motor I’d consider it to be of little interest as it is not my job to modify a machine and buy more suitable components to compensate for poor design and/or shoddy build. If that is the attitude I’d take in the case of a washing machine then I don’t see why it should be any different for a model train.

[Golden Fleece 30]

this is a Hattons issue, not a Heljan issue (unless Hattons also supplied some of the models to other retailers to sell).

 

I thought somewhere long back on this post Hattons supplied Elaine's trains (or someone else) to install sound etc but after a few issues as seen on here they refused to carry on with any installations and sent a few Garratts back to Hattons?

[jjb1970]

I thought somewhere long back on this post Hattons supplied Elaine's trains (or someone else) to install sound etc but after a few issues as seen on here they refused to carry on with any installations and sent a few Garratts back to Hattons?

 

If you bought a model from them, then they'd be the party you'd have to pursue if they were reluctant to do the right thing, and I'd stress that we should not assume any retailers would be reluctant to do the right thing. Then they'd have to sort out their own issues with Hattons. All gets a bit messy sadly.

[Ian Hargrave]

I thought somewhere long back on this post Hattons supplied Elaine's trains (or someone else) to install sound etc but after a few issues as seen on here they refused to carry on with any installations and sent a few Garratts back to Hattons?

I think it was Olivia's Trains,actually.They specialise in sound fitting.

[trw1089]

It's an interesting debate about who is at fault here, the box has Heljan written all over it and as they were the OEM I think the issue is with them rather than Hattons.

 

My Garratt is running perfectly though a valve gear lock up did occur and given the pics of the commutator on this thread, i still believe that the valve gear locking up and burning out a flimsy motor is the primary cause of failure, perhaps also with the occasional motor mount problem. The root cause is the poor motors in the end, and this was a choice by Heljan, though possibly because of building down to a price. Even so, Heljan's second U.K. outline steam loco, the O2, while nearly as expensive as the Garratt, was a much worse runner for me, the build quality was much worse than the Garratt and it is still a poor performer when going around my layout. I therefore believe that the whole issue is one of Heljans responsibility. Hattons were the commissioner but they would also have wanted redress from the manufacturer as they would have paid for a working product which has failed to be delivered. I don't think Hattons are blameless though if they did send out locos without testing given the number of issues encountered, but I don't think they deserve the bashing on here for what is an OEM failure.

 

In the end, I still believe that it is a cracking model for the price and I was quite happy to do what was necessary to keep mine running (along with doing similar repaired to other manufacturers locos). The hobby is still not one where you can expect each and every model to work straight out of a box, and if you are not prepared to do some fettling to get something running then you will need to be prepared to be disappointed quite regularly, regardless of the price you pay.

 

Cheers

Tony

[JSpencer]

It's an interesting debate about who is at fault here, the box has Heljan written all over it and as they were the OEM I think the issue is with them rather than Hattons.

 

My Garratt is running perfectly though a valve gear lock up did occur and given the pics of the commutator on this thread, i still believe that the valve gear locking up and burning out a flimsy motor is the primary cause of failure, perhaps also with the occasional motor mount problem. The root cause is the poor motors in the end, and this was a choice by Heljan, though possibly because of building down to a price. Even so, Heljan's second U.K. outline steam loco, the O2, while nearly as expensive as the Garratt, was a much worse runner for me, the build quality was much worse than the Garratt and it is still a poor performer when going around my layout. I therefore believe that the whole issue is one of Heljans responsibility. Hattons were the commissioner but they would also have wanted redress from the manufacturer as they would have paid for a working product which has failed to be delivered. I don't think Hattons are blameless though if they did send out locos without testing given the number of issues encountered, but I don't think they deserve the bashing on here for what is an OEM failure.

 

In the end, I still believe that it is a cracking model for the price and I was quite happy to do what was necessary to keep mine running (along with doing similar repaired to other manufacturers locos). The hobby is still not one where you can expect each and every model to work straight out of a box, and if you are not prepared to do some fettling to get something running then you will need to be prepared to be disappointed quite regularly, regardless of the price you pay.

 

Cheers

Tony

 

The motors used are the same as those on the class 15 except for the position and length of the shafts. There is indeed something odd causing these to burn out. A poor batch of motors? the estranged electrical set up of the model? a somewhat stiffer drive train? The entire set up not suitable for certain controlers/track cleaners? Maybe all of those combined? Who knows?

 

In my case, all heavy freight work will be domain of the robust and reliable 9Fs (Hornby or Bachmann) until we find out!

Edited September 30, 2016 by JSpencer

[jjb1970]

Heljan are the party responsible for designing the model in order for it to be fit for purpose but from a consumer perspective responsibility to fulfil statutory consumer protection obligations lies with the retailer, not the manufacturer. In terms of legal responsibility this is Hattons problem, to either refund or compensate customers or to repair or replace faulty products. Then it is for them to consider whether they should pursue Heljan. What it says on the box is irrelevant in that respect. If the manufacturer offers a warranty then they can offer that directly and most good manufacturers will offer a decent warranty and try and address product short comings in a fair and equitable manner. They may ask you to deal with the retailer who then passes things to the manufacturer, or they may deal directly with the consumer, but if that mechanism doesn’t work or they either do not offer a warranty or the retailer tries to evade their responsibilities or wash their hands at the end of a time limited warranty then it does not affect the retailers legal responsibilities under consumer protection law. That said, there would be nothing to stop Heljan intervening, given it is their reputation being trashed. I know Hornby have had a troubled time in recent years and have dropped a few klangers of their own, but when their models suffered Mazak rot they did the decent thing and looked after customers without needing to be threatened or named and shamed around the Internet, it seems sad that more model companies cannot do the same.

In terms of a model not working, my own view is that the customer should never have to rectify a faulty product in terms of motors burning out and a failure to work. If a model is the wrong shape, wrong colour or just not very good then that is one thing as we have eyes and can make our own decision whether it is worth buying in terms of fidelity to prototype, detail, finish etc but it should work. My little lad has a couple of Railroad steam locomotives which run beautifully smoothly and are almost silent despite their humble entry level status. If manufacturers can produce entry level models which are superb runners then there really is no excuse for a premium priced model needing to be re-engineered by the purchaser in order to make it work. The irony is that Heljan are quite rightly held in very high esteem for the running qualities of their diesels (early Claytons excepted…..), I have quite a few of their diesels and every one of them is an outstanding runner so clearly Heljan are not incompetent or incapable of designing a good mechanism. I really don’t know what went wrong with these B-G models, whether it was Hattons demanding that they be built down to a cost (which in itself is no excuse) or Heljan just getting it wrong for some reason. Either way it shouldn’t be customers that end up with a choice of either being stuck with lemons or re-engineering the things.

Edited September 30, 2016 by jjb1970

[Colin_McLeod]

There are a lot of interesting posts here about legal liability and small claims courts but in practice Hattons will refund your money (see Tony Daley's posts) so why not just ask them?

[jjb1970]

There are a lot of interesting posts here about legal liability and small claims courts but in practice Hattons will refund your money (see Tony Daley's posts) so why not just ask them?

I fully agree, if Hattons give you a refund then it is job done. The small claims process is only useful where a retailer tries to evade their responsibility. Although it is worth noting that their liability is not limited to a warranty period in case anybody finds difficulties further down the line.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There are a lot of interesting posts here about legal liability and small claims courts but in practice Hattons will refund your money (see Tony Daley's posts) so why not just ask them?

 I know it is dangerous to assume anything, but with one of the posts in this thread - ah this one -

 

... purchased all twelve Garratts and only three of them run now...

  describing a customer with 75% failure, one would hope that the refund path had already been tried?

 

But if it has not, then absolutely, go for the refund first.

 

However, I suspect that the real difficulty is that most of the owners want a working model or models, and not a refund. What is really being looked for is a mechanism to move Hattons to provide a satisfactory running model for all the owners who want to operate them. Sadly though that deal is not on offer through the processes available. You can decide to keep the model and accept the motor failure, or you can have the money refunded. But a definitely reliable working Garratt: you are on your own. There's no law available to enforce supply of what was expected. The best bet is likely to be demands for refund: that alone in sufficient numbers might - and only might - prompt the vendor to offer a solution for those that want reliable runners.

[Ian Hargrave]

But then however you get a post such as 2211 which in effect undermines the complaints made with depressing frequency on this subject.There are those who it seems do not mind being presented with a product which isn't fit for purpose and who make a virtue out of putting it into working order and who disingenuously declare it's not Hattons fault and that they should not be held to account.

That is not at all helpful to modellers seeking some form of redress.The only practical solution is a money back one.Do you honestly believe that Hattons have any idea of a magic cure for this ? In any case it simply would not be cost effective.Far easier to open the till and give Brian his cash.God knows he deserves it.

Mercifully,I kept my money in the bank on this one.....besides I imagine that the palaver of railing and re railing it is akin to a struggle with a reticulated python.£200 for a turkey? Some of this is truly unbelievable.

[Izzy]

The motors used are the same as those on the class 15 except for the position and length of the shafts. There is indeed something odd causing these to burn out. A poor batch of motors? the estranged electrical set up of the model? a somewhat stiffer drive train? The entire set up not suitable for certain controlers/track cleaners? Maybe all of those combined? Who knows?

 

In my case, all heavy freight work will be domain of the robust and reliable 9Fs (Hornby or Bachmann) until we find out!

 

These motors would appear to be used in several Heljan locos, certainly in the W&M railbus I have as well as a Class 15, and I believe they also feature in the Class 16, other rail bus versions, the 05 and so forth. From what I have read, motor failure has afflicted all these models at times, and some modellers have tried other motors to solve the issues, especially when replacements from Howes have not been available, see here:

 

http://www.emgauge70s.co.uk/ and look at the November and December 2015 pages

 

This would seem to indicate that it is the motors that are the primary problem, and exacerbated by the locking valve gear.

[Brian Hawkins]

These Garratts should of never have left the Heljan factory in the first place, surely they were tested before being delivered to Hattons, as someone said earlier they were built on the cheap and now those of us who supported both Heljan and Hattons in this project are now paying the price.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...those of us who supported both Heljan and Hattons in this project are now paying the price.

 But you don't have to do that. Return for refund: and in the event that Hattons refuse a refund, inform them of your intent to make a small claims action to obtain redress, and follow through.

 

 

But then however you get a post such as 2211 which in effect undermines the complaints made with depressing frequency on this subject.There are those who it seems do not mind being presented with a product which isn't fit for purpose and who make a virtue out of putting it into working order and who disingenuously declare it's not Hattons fault and that they should not be held to account...

 With respect, that is completely irrelevant. It is a free world, and what one individual chooses to do - deciding on a DIY fix - and whatever opinions they may express, in no way changes the fact that another individual is fully entitled to expect a refund for faulty products.

Edited September 30, 2016 by 34theletterbetweenB&D

[stewartingram]

Lot of claims going around, but lets deal in facts (at least as much as we know with some things).

 

1. The retailer is, in law, responsible for the item, NOT the manufacturer. Indeed, Hattons seem willing to give refunds. Always the best option to ask direct rather than post on forums.

2. "motors faulty" seems to be the normal complaint. BUT from what I've deduced from many postings, and my own strip down of my loco (not faulty btw), this is the result, not cause.

3. The fairly complex assembly of the 2 chassis could be better designed, though everything costs money. It is really 2 fairly simple 2-6-0 locos.

The assembly of the valve gear is not as good as it could be, mine has fallen apart a few times (usually during re-assembly by me, but that points to a not so good design). Failure in traffic like this would stall the motor, and cause the burnouts experienced.

4. Any arrangement between a retailer and manufacturer should have contracts stipulating standards and costs. We don't know the arrangements made by Hattons. We have to assume that they set limits; some retailers are more savvy at this than others. (No reflection on Hattons intended). If these contractual limits are met, the retailer has no claim with the manufacturer. If they are not met however the retailer can claim against the manufacturer. If they are too loosely specified.....?

5. Hattons do not have a bottomless pit of money. I am sure they are covering themselves as legally required. This will probably mean a refund, not a replacement (the run has finished) or upgraded spares (not in the contract and too expensive for the retailer to do).

 

Personally, I find the model good in terms of looks. Performance is also good, with the reservation that I had some issues in reassembly. I stripped mine right down for a respray; whilst doing this I removed the lighting, and took out the DCC ready wiring. (much simpler, and with soldered joints instead of plugs. As suggested by someone on here I have sourced a couple of motors off ebay as insurance.

 

Stewart

Edited October 1, 2016 by stewartingram

[Ian Hargrave]

But you don't have to do that. Return for refund: and in the event that Hattons refuse a refund, inform them of your intent to make a small claims action to obtain redress, and follow through.

 

 

 

 With respect, that is completely irrelevant. It is a free world, and what one individual chooses to do - deciding on a DIY fix - and whatever opinions they may express, in no way changes the fact that another individual is fully entitled to expect a refund for faulty products.

The reason and the point of posting this was to illustrate how difficult it is to reach a consensus in moving towards a solution of the issue.There are those among us who are content to potter around with the product to improve it.It is however emphatically relevant when those among us who do not possess such temperament and skills are confronted by the sunny uplands wherein dwell such mortals who believe it's cool to have the privelege of repairing a model with known defects.Indeed we are all free to choose...but have respect for others who have no such option.There is nothing more frustrating for those with a problem be it ever so small than being confronted by someone who declares..problem...what problem?

[Ian Hargrave]

These Garratts should of never have left the Heljan factory in the first place, surely they were tested before being delivered to Hattons, as someone said earlier they were built on the cheap and now those of us who supported both Heljan and Hattons in this project are now paying the price.

I envisage it now,Brian,your regal procession accompanied by police motorcyclist outriders through the M6 roadworks inexorably towards Armageddon on South Merseyside.....The Return Of The Garratts. P.S. Avoid Fridays.

[Colin_McLeod]

I tried to message Dave at Hattons to request their position re the BG but RMweb site says he can't use the message system!

[MarkSG]

But then however you get a post such as 2211 which in effect undermines the complaints made with depressing frequency on this subject.There are those who it seems do not mind being presented with a product which isn't fit for purpose and who make a virtue out of putting it into working order and who disingenuously declare it's not Hattons fault and that they should not be held to account.

That is not at all helpful to modellers seeking some form of redress.The only practical solution is a money back one.Do you honestly believe that Hattons have any idea of a magic cure for this ? In any case it simply would not be cost effective.Far easier to open the till and give Brian his cash.God knows he deserves it.

 

It's not quite that simple, though. Some of us want a Garratt. That's why we bought it in the first place. Mine, so far, has been OK, but I have run it fairly sparingly partly as a result of reading about the problems other people have had. But if it does ever fail, what I want is to get it fixed. I don't really want my money back. I want a working Garratt.

 

Ideally, of course, Hattons should sort that out for me. If it does fail, I could send it back and let them either try to fix or or send me a replacement. But even then, I have no guarantee that a replacement will work any better.

 

Talk of legal rights isn't really helpful here. If Hattons can't provide me with a Garratt that is expected to be reasonably reliable (and, to be honest, I suspect that they really can't, not now), then no legal action is going to be able to force them to. The most I can get by asserting my legal rights is my money back.

 

If it was something that was easily replaceable, then yes, that's the best solution, If I bought a computer, or a phone, or a camera, and it failed and the retailer couldn't fix it for me, then the next best option is to get my money back and buy elsewhere. But there are no other RTR Garratts. There isn't even a kit of this one, not any more. So accepting a refund means accepting no Garratt.

 

Under those circumstances, the next best option is to try to fix it myself, should it come to that. And the necessary components are relatively easy to obtain, and not too expensive. It's not ideal, but it's better than nothing. And I suspect that there are a lot of other customers out there who feel the same way. We may be annoyed at how serious a flaw this model has, but we'd still rather have it than not have it.

[Downendian]

MarkSG is spot on here. Exactly my view too, I don't want my money back, as there is no other option for the B-G. I just want it to run again, I'm happy to fit new motors, and it would be great if some kind RMwebber could show photos of what they have done, as it appears straightforward, I think I will contact Hattons, and see if they offer anything beyond a refund, as many have said there's plenty of evidence here that the mechanisms are citrus flavoured.

 

To cover the cost of the motors and perhaps a discount on a future purchase would soothe the angst. Like many of us, my disposable income has helped keep them going for over 20 years, I do expect them to be concerned about the entire situation especially as they have invested a lot of time with commissions.

 

Neil