Class 23 Baby Deltics in as-built condition, with headcode discs.

[locoholic]

Just noticed on the Modelfair website that orders are being taken for Heljan Baby Deltics in original condition, product codes from 2320 onwards. Also on the Hatton's site, but description is less specific. Delivery in November, perhaps.....?

[farren]

i see on hattons they are already down to £85 is no one baying them or have they got some thing wrong on the model/

[giz]

i see on hattons they are already down to £85 is no one baying them or have they got some thing wrong on the model/

 

The green with full yellow ends seem to have been much less popular than than the green SYP or blue versions (the original issues of which sold out) and the one at £85 is the green with arrows so that would appear the least popular of all.

[farren]

i see but not to bad if you dont mind repanting

[Baby Deltic]

I think the main reason might be due to the relatively short period of time that Baby Deltic's sported full yellow ends in green. All the GFYE examples were scrapped around 1969.

Only D5905 (GSYP) and D5909 (BFYE) survived into 1970 in BR capital stock, both being withdrawn in 1971. D5901 was in GSYP right up until its RTC career ended and it was scrapped in 1977.

[Jawfin]

I'm looking for a loco for suburban passenger workings on the Eastern/North Eastern/Scottish Region, from 1962. The Baby Deltic with disc head codes seems to tick all the boxes, but something tells me to be wary. Is it better than the Hornby B1, or is there a better loco out there?

[black and decker boy]

Nothing too wrong with the baby deltic and the mechanism is excellent, very good for shunting etc. the Hornby b1 is also a lovely model and very good runner.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I'm looking for a loco for suburban passenger workings on the Eastern/North Eastern/Scottish Region, from 1962.

Easy choice for Eastern Region out of KX, it is the Ped, Brush type 2, class 30, from 1964 on to be metamorphosing into class 31. This was the core item, roughly 50 at any one time at Finsbury Park. Not a loco, but the other staple was the class 105 bogcart. The ten Baby Deltics/class 23's which were all but one out of service by end 1962 reappeared after modification from July 64. After some further failures they mostly went onto non-passenger work before meeting an inevitable end to their service life from 1968. From the lineside what was generally seen on suburban service was the 30/31 and 105.

[railroadbill]

At the end of steam, N2 and L1 tanks were the KX suburban locos. I think that B1s would have run to further away destinations such as Cambridge. However, 1962 was well into dieselisation - but my Ian Allan ABC for 1962 still shows 48 L1s and 12 N2s "on the books" as it were - is it possible that there could have been a few still used on standby - waiting for the inevitable diesel failure?

 

As 34the letterbetweenB&D says, 31s were the inevitable suburban diesel loco plus the Cravens 105 DMUs (then called diesel railcars I think). Later, there were also some BR Derby built slam door DMUs with Rolls Royce engines and hydraulic transmission that also ran from Broad Street in the rush hours and were pretty awful. Plus a few Metro Cammell DMUs (later class 101).

 

Re models, IMHO the Bachmann 105 is excellent as indeed is the Heljan class 23, mine runs very well indeed on DC. Have Hornby Class 31 , good runner after I stripped the bogies down and straightened them out . Odd they haven't made more 31s since they were a large loco class.

 

Enough rambling reminiscences - from 50 years ago, good grief!

 

And the Heljan 23 is a great model.

 

Bill

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The handover to diesel on KX suburban was pretty quick. The last year of principally steam operation was 1958.

Inner suburban, the territory of the N2s with some N7s for the Luton and Dunbstable branch, steam tapered off very fast. All passenger was scheduled as diesel operated by 1960, the remaining N2s retained for pick up freight, ECS and 'rescues'. Unusual type in area, an N5 worked the Hertford freight for part of 1959!

Outer suburban (L1 and B1) went majority diesel by 1960, but a few of the longer runs to Cambridge and Peterborough hung on to B1 steam until 34A closed in June 63. (They couldn't get rid of the dreadful concrete mixers fast enough!) Unusual type in area: in 1957, a trio of BR std 5s had been allocated for these turns. But they couldn't hack it, I have been told by a driver not able to produce the acceleration required up the Northern heights to make the timings on the down trains, and were sent away pretty briskly.

 

The complete magnificence of the N2 was revealed in this process. This very small loco was incapable of like for like replacement by any steam or diesel traction available to BR. The 'solution' was to reduce the passenger capacity per train to 60% of what an N2 had handled and use a diesel class of 50% greater weight on it (Brush 2/class30), or use a bog cart (class 105) with only 40% the capacity and more unreliable than steam. Complete casualties of the process were the NBL type 2 and EE type 2; the Derby type 2 was not even entered into the fray presumably to prevent further embarrassment...

[D9020 Nimbus]

I thought the Derby Type 2s (Class 24) were allocated for cross-London freight workings, for which the other types were unacceptable to the Southern Region (and the Baby Deltics due to the exhaust smoke).

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Indeed so. Not tried on the suburban passenger workings. The traction situation was so desperate that the EE type 1 was used during the warmer months when steam heat was not required; and proved pretty successful. But the apparently equally suitable Derby type 2s were never put to the test. Dark mutterings about 'pets' which only met the weight requirement by being weighed dry, and were not to be exposed to the chopping block which had broken the other type 2s...

[Oldddudders]

I can't offer any further insight on GN/ER workings, although I certainly saw a few at KX and Finsbury Park 1961-2, but I can say that the Derby Type 2s did run solo on passenger turns on Southern Region in my recollection. That said, these were not suburban in nature - third rail had been completed within that area before the Hitler war - but were Kent Coast and spin-off trains. So the fast Tonbridge - Redhill evening service (SO), which probably went on to London Bridge, and which was hauled by 30924 Haileybury when I first saw it at Nutfield, was Derby Type 2-hauled some months later.

[Ian Hargrave]

The Derby Type2 made its debut on the S.R. in 1959,mainly on the Eastern section.Indeed,the first production machines were temporarily allocated there,I believe, as a temporary stopgap ,pending delivery of the B.R.C & W Type3(a.k.a.Type33).They were allocated to Hither Green (73C).

With regard to suburban K.X. workings in 1959,prior to the introduction of the ubiquitous Brush Type2,the B.R.C.& W. Type 2 (a.k.a. Type 26) D 5300 onwards,were prevalent both on e.c.s., suburban and,particulaly,Moorgate workings via K.X. The 'baby deltics' did not,I think,work to Moorgate but could be seen on a variety of other K.X. workings There was,of course,also the ill-starred N.B.L. D61XX.to be seen on rare occasions when in good health.

By 1960,these had migrated north of the border,which left the ailing 'baby deltics' and a flood of Brush 2's and the Cravens dmu's. the odd D 84XX and an allocation of D50XX to 34G round about 1961

[Oldddudders]

The Derby Type2 made its debut on the S.R. in 1959,mainly on the Eastern section.Indeed,the first production machines were temporarily allocated there,I believe, as a temporary stopgap ,pending delivery of the B.R.C & W Type3(a.k.a.Type33).They were allocated to Hither Green (73C).

I think the Type 2s stayed long enough to be used as train heating boilers on No 1 Boat Train Route (i.e. Tonbridge-Ashford-Folkestone-Dover) immediately prior to electrification. So I saw BRCW Type 3s double-heading them in 1961. Derby Type 2s were also used on Cross-London transfer freights - I saw D5084 coming through Crystal Palace en route Norwood Down Yard in the same era. I think Trains Illustrated (as the predecessor of Modern Railways) also had a colour pic of a Derby Type 2 on a freight at Rye, and I saw one in Redhill Up Yard in 1960.

[Clive Mortimore]

The Sulzer Bo-Bos were used on the SR freights via Snow Hill owing to the high axle loading of the other type 2 classes. Baby Deltics produced less smoke than a SR Q1. As well as Finsbury Park having some Br Type 2s, so did Cricklewood for the same duties. Both the ER and LMR used them on Moorgate passenger services. The diagrams the 34G locos worked also included suburban duites from and to Kings Cross. They were also used on ECS workings. The Bo-Bos were transfered to the ScR and LMR from 1966 as part of BRs type rationalisation by grouping the same classes in one area, not because they were crap. Another ER class cleared for Snow Hill workings was the BTH type 1, Finsbury Park had a few with LT trip cocks for widen lines, these mainly worked freight but on rare occasions they could be seen on passenger trains. Must not forget the SR's own BRCW Bo-Bo type 3s, they were permitted to work freight over the Snow Hill route, there is a great photo in the OPC book Power of the Class 33s of one heading a freight train pass Passenger Loco towards Gas Works Tunnel.

 

While on the subject of BRCW Bo-Bos the smaller engined type 2s worked in the area until there was enough Brush type 2s, these were never fitted with LT trip cock gear so were only used on suburban duties from Kings Cross.

 

 

I'm looking for a loco for suburban passenger workings on the Eastern/North Eastern/Scottish Region, from 1962. The Baby Deltic with disc head codes seems to tick all the boxes, but something tells me to be wary. Is it better than the Hornby B1, or is there a better loco out there?

 

Most of this talk has been about the southern end of the ER. For suburban services in the northern cities. The LNER V1 and V3 2-6-2T classes were commmon. DMUs had ousted the last NER big passenger tanks by the early 1960s. The NER had a great collection of DMU types, Metro-Cammell, BRCW, Derby blue square light weights (108s) Derby Light Weights and Cravens units. Around Leeds and Bradford ex LMS 2-6-4 tanks of Fowler, Stanier and Fairburn desgins were used almost to the end of steam. Newcastle still had its 3rd rail electric lines.

 

The ScR also used the V1 and V3 tanks on ex LNER lines. The ScR also had a variety of railcars (both DMU and railcar were in use at the time) Metro-Cammell, Gloucester, Derby blue square light weights (108s) Derby short heavy weights (107s) and Cravens units. For a short time some Glasgow suburban services were hauled by English Electric type 1s, I believe these were ex LMS lines. Later in the 60s some the ScR Gloucester units moved to the NER Newcastle area. These and some more ScR units ended up on the ER, mainly in East Anglia but could work Cambridge outer suburban duties to Kings Cross.

[Ian Hargrave]

The B.R.C.W Type 2's WERE working to Moorgate in 1959,as I clearly saw one day in late August 1959.

[Clive Mortimore]

The B.R.C.W Type 2's WERE working to Moorgate in 1959,as I clearly saw one day in late August 1959.

 

Hi Ian

 

It was fairly common practice to send a loco not fitted with LT Trip Cock gear on the widen lines, frowned apon by London Transport. I saw refurbished Baby Deltics and a Gloucester unit on Moorgate duties and they were not fitted with trip cocks. This was normally due to the non availability of a fitted loco (unit).

[Ian Hargrave]

Clive....just revisited my LocoLog Book,3rd Sept.1959. Rush hour at K.C. A1,A3,A4, V2,B1,B17(one of the last,61652) steam. D53XX(7),D59XX(4),D201,D209 diesel.The icing on the cake ? 'Deltic' arriving at the head of an inbound from Doncaster. I can still hear the roar as it emerged from Gasworks Tunnel.

[spackz]

BrushVeteren,

 

Have you had any painted samples of these yet? Just had an e-mail from Hattons saying they are due in March. Are they likely to meet this release date?

 

Cheers

[Jawfin]

Wow! Forgot about this topic... Thanks for all the advice.

The class 30/31 looks tempting... It looks like Hornby are going to produce 2 for some reason...

The release for the 23s with head code discs has seemingly been postponed (again!?) according to model fair, putting me off a bit.

Sorry, but I can't tell if the 30/31 in my era, as I'm not sure if its a class 31 or a class 30, and I can't make sense of the confusing tool known as BRDatabase.

Any advise please?

[Charlie]

Ummm, I think you have the wrong thread?

[BrushVeteran]

BrushVeteren,

 

Have you had any painted samples of these yet? Just had an e-mail from Hattons saying they are due in March. Are they likely to meet this release date?

 

Cheers

The painted samples have not been received yet. Providing they are OK they can be approved reasonably quickly for production and yes at this stage it would be possible to meet a sometime in March delivery. However we will not rush the process to compromise the quality and accuracy of the model so we live in hope that the painted samples will arrive within the next few days and that there will be no, or minimal, corrections to report.

I believe Hattons are working off the ETA given by Heljan DK and this was before Heljan UK rejected the FPS3 sample which has since been ammended and finally approved. Unfortunately given the geographical locations of the production process this accounts for the majority of delays experieced by most model manufactuers outsourcing to the Far East. We are virtually on target with this one though.

[spackz]

Cheers Grahame,

 

Looking forward to these and the 16's its going to be an expensive March as they both seem destined for release during that month. Heljan keep releasing locos I've been wanting despite me saying I have enough, next will be the 05, 26 and O2

[Downer]

Having just read through this thread, I'm still not clear as to whether the Baby Deltics worked freight in their first few years, particularly on the cross-London routes like Ferme Park to Feltham.  Can anyone help?