Class 23 Baby Deltics in as-built condition, with headcode discs.

[dandg]

Having just read through this thread, I'm still not clear as to whether the Baby Deltics worked freight in their first few years, particularly on the cross-London routes like Ferme Park to Feltham.  Can anyone help?

 

Yes, at least on the GN main line!   See http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/0173.htm , http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/0196.htm  , http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/0195.htm.   Also http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/0180.htm somwhat later.

[Clive Mortimore]

Having just read through this thread, I'm still not clear as to whether the Baby Deltics worked freight in their first few years, particularly on the cross-London routes like Ferme Park to Feltham.  Can anyone help?

Hi Downer

 

There was no reason for them not too, but I have never seen a photo of them doing so. I think they were kept on the GNR outer suburban services where the ER staff were able to keep an eye on them.

 

They were too heavy to be used on the Snowhill route to the SR that is why Finsbury Park was allocated a number of Sulzer Bo-Bos to work these services. The Brush Type 2s were too heavy as well, but they did work the North London Line. It is also worth remembering there were the BTHs built for short distance cross London freights so this was another limiting factor for the Baby Deltics to be used.

[Baby Deltic]

I have seen photo's of unrefurbished baby deltics on freight.

[Brian D]

Hi Peeps,

Any idea when these unrefurbed models will be avaiable to buy.  I have a birthday looming

Regards to all,

Brian.

[Orinoco]

I have seen photo's of unrefurbished baby deltics on freight.

I read somewhere that they were introduced on coal trains in the South Yorkshire area when new. Found to be unsuitable, they quickly went south to work in the KX area.

[31A]

Hi Peeps,

Any idea when these unrefurbed models will be avaiable to buy.  I have a birthday looming

Regards to all,

Brian.

Hi Brian, I'm anticipating eagerly, too!

 

The latest notification I've had from Hatton's for the one I have on order (Heljan 2321, D5901, green with frost grilles) was received on 16.04.13, and said:

 

"Our latest information from the supplier suggests this item will arrive with us between June 2013 & July 2013".

[Brian D]

Many thanks, 31A.  Might be touch and go for my Birthday at the end of June.  Hmm.

[spackz]

Best person to ask regarding these is Brush Veteran, when I asked him last his information was pretty much the same as the delivery estimate from Hattons, end of June. Thats for these and the 16's.

[31A]

A further message from Hatton's today suggests a delivery date of September 2013.  Ah well, at least it might be a few weeks after the Class 16!

[Jamiel]

I read somewhere that they were introduced on coal trains in the South Yorkshire area when new. Found to be unsuitable, they quickly went south to work in the KX area.

I found a picture on a website 'Transports of Delight' by Geoff Bannister that has a shot of an original Baby Deltic on a freight near Potters Bar:

http://www.geoffbannister.com/tod/modern_diesel/early_non_steam.html

(I didn't post the picture with respect to the copyright).

 

I would love to find a details of them working in South Yorkshire, but they will probably run on my layout anyway (I already have one with a headcode), too much to resist.

[Velopeur]

In the book 'Deltics' by RM Tufnell, there are 2 photos of Baby Deltics on freight trains in the London area. This book suggests they were allocated to KX suburban trains from new and were only relegated to freight traffic just before being rebuilt, in 1962. The reason given is that they had become too unreliable for the suburban passenger trains.

[Downer]

In the book 'Deltics' by RM Tufnell, there are 2 photos of Baby Deltics on freight trains in the London area. This book suggests they were allocated to KX suburban trains from new and were only relegated to freight traffic just before being rebuilt, in 1962. The reason given is that they had become too unreliable for the suburban passenger trains.

I'd be interested to know the locations of these two shots.

[Velopeur]

I'd be interested to know the locations of these two shots.

There is a colour image opposite page 16 and a b/w image on page 25. The first is D5901 on an up freight emerging from Hadley Wood tunnel. The second is of D5907 near Hatfield.

[stewartingram]

I've seen it quoted somewhere recently that the GN suburban services were dieselised with a mixture of Cravens dmu (105) and type 2 locos (21/23/26 and later 31), so that the locos could be employed off peak on goods trains. I think it was in one of the Bylines or similar mags that I glanced at in IA Waterloo, with an article on the early days of the Cravens units?

 

Stewart

 

ps my personal recollections of the class (I was based in Cambridge) were on passenger trains to Cambridge, (also Ely on extended CBE trains for a short while), but when I visited Sandy etc, I often saw them on non-passenger work as far north as Peterborough. (goods, light engines, pw trains).

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The running order into KX suburban service from 8/58 (using TOPS as shorthand) was class 26 * and class 105 pretty much together, then the class 21 * and class 23 in early 59, then the appearance of loaned class 30s (there was no class 31 at this time) from the GE section, before allocation of class 30s began in earnest from late 59 and was completed during 1960. For type 2 completeness in the KX area, some class 24 were then acquired in early 1961. But these delicate flowers were for freight only, not to be subjected to the pounding which broke all but the class 26. The breaking took a few years in the case of the 30, resulting in the re-engine programme that produced the class 31.

 

* The asterisked classes were always intended for service in Scotland, but sent to fill in until class 30s could be supplied; as these arrived so first the class 21 and then the class 26 were displaced.

[Velopeur]

I had heard or read several accounts of what drove the decision to dieselise the KX suburban area. Some accounts suggest that the idea was to concentrate prototype classes in one area so they could be compared. Another was that diesels were diverted from other places to satisfy political pressure to clean up London's air.

 

Was it really always planned for the Cravens DMUs (105s) to do KX suburban duties? I understood they were originally ordered for more rural services, like the M&GN.

 

...or was the plan originally to electrify, like the Liverpool Street services?

[FelixM]

Hi,

 

the M&GN closed down in 1954 or so and the Cravens which had been used there until then were surplus, so they were sent to stand in for the loco shortage of the GN suburban services as far as I know.

 

Hope this helps

Felix

[Oldddudders]

Hi,

 

the M&GN closed down in 1954 or so and the Cravens which had been used there until then were surplus, so they were sent to stand in for the loco shortage of the GN suburban services as far as I know.

 

Hope this helps

Felix

Were there really many Cravens about in 1954?

[Velopeur]

The M&GN closed (for the most part) in 1959

[mark54]

I had heard or read several accounts of what drove the decision to dieselise the KX suburban area. Some accounts suggest that the idea was to concentrate prototype classes in one area so they could be compared. Another was that diesels were diverted from other places to satisfy political pressure to clean up London's air.

 

Was it really always planned for the Cravens DMUs (105s) to do KX suburban duties? I understood they were originally ordered for more rural services, like the M&GN.

 

...or was the plan originally to electrify, like the Liverpool Street services?

It was originally planned to electrify the GN suburban services in the early 1960s. This would have followed on after the Liverpool St and Fenchurch St suburban electrifications. However there was an urgent need to replace the N2 locos that were the backbone of the steam services. As an interim measure pending electrification, services were dieselised in 1959 using Cravens DMUs (that may have been ordered for other services but were new when introduced on the GN) to run the basic off-peak inner and some of the outer suburban services and loco-hauled trains for the rest of the outer suburban trains and all peak services. A high utilisation of the diesel locos was achieved by using them in the off-peak on cross-London and local area freight, and empty carriage workings from/to the various GN carriage sidings.

 

In the event the GN electrification was put off due to government capital expenditure restrictions. It was finally approved in 1971. The interim diesel service carried on in the meantime, using the mixture of DMUs and loco-hauled trains - including non-gangwayed stock that lasted almost 10 years longer than anywhere else on BR. In the later 1960s more Cravens units and 2 types of 3-car Derby units were drafted in from elsewhere on the ER, which allowed some reduction of the off-peak and peak local-hauled trains.

 

Mark

[31A]

Hi,

 

the M&GN closed down in 1954 or so and the Cravens which had been used there until then were surplus, so they were sent to stand in for the loco shortage of the GN suburban services as far as I know.

 

Hope this helps

Felix

I don't believe any Cravens units were ever used on the M&GN (and none existed in 1954!); they may have been ordered with the intention of using them on the ex M&GN lines but as noted above, the bulk of it closed in 1959, at the same time as the first Cravens units were being delivered.  The only section of the M&GN which saw regular DMU traffic was Cromer-Sheringham-Melton Constable, and the DMUs photographed on the section were Derby and Metro Cammell 'lightweight' units (E79xxx series numbers).

[robertcwp]

I don't believe any Cravens units were ever used on the M&GN (and none existed in 1954!); they may have been ordered with the intention of using them on the ex M&GN lines but as noted above, the bulk of it closed in 1959, at the same time as the first Cravens units were being delivered.  The only section of the M&GN which saw regular DMU traffic was Cromer-Sheringham-Melton Constable, and the DMUs photographed on the section were Derby and Metro Cammell 'lightweight' units (E79xxx series numbers).

The M&GN closed in 1959 not 1954.  Met-Cam units (79xxx series) worked to Norwich City, on services from Norwich Thorpe via Cromer, in the final months leading up to closure of most of the system.

[31A]

The M&GN closed in 1959 not 1954.  Met-Cam units (79xxx series) worked to Norwich City, on services from Norwich Thorpe via Cromer, in the final months leading up to closure of most of the system.

That's interesting; I must admit I didn't realise DMUs worked to Norwich City, apart from possibly on railtours after it became freight-only.

[silverlink]

Never mind Cravens and DMU's when are these 'as built' class 23's going to be available !!!  

[31A]

Another message from Hattons today:

 

Heljan 2321 Class 23 Baby Deltic D5901 green with frost grilles. £104.00

Our latest information from the supplier suggests this item will arrive with us November 2013