RMweb Premium njee20 Posted November 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 27, 2012 Happy days! Looking forward to the FGW and the Pretendolino ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelW Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Has anyone seen a reference to new eastern region HST Blue/Grey coaches? I know Dave said these would be produced, but am wondering if the product numbers they'll be produced under have been announced? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucazone Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Preorders for the various buffet coaches have started at a well known Liverpool retailer. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott B Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 (edited) Preorders for the various buffet coaches have started at a well known Liverpool retailer. Regards So, can anyone enlighten me as to what the difference is between these two please, other than the second one being £2 dearer and having no comment as to if it is with or without buffers ? 2P-005-010DapolMk3 Coach Buffet in Blue Grey livery without buffers (ex-NC055C)N Gauge£17 NC216ADapolMkIII coach buffet in blue and grey liveryN Gauge£19 It cannot be as simple as NC216A having buffers, as that is covered by NC054CDapolMk3 Coach RFM Buffet in Blue Grey livery with buffersN Gauge£17 Regards Edited January 5, 2013 by Scott B Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Dunno, but checking at Rails that code isn't listed at all (they're also all priced at £16.50 there as well BTW...).<br /><br />The product code (NC054C) looks wrong for a MK3 Buffet though as they are all NC216x at Rails, so it code be a cock up in data entry at Hattons has caused this anomoly Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 So, can anyone enlighten me as to what the difference is between these two please, other than the second one being £2 dearer and having no comment as to if it is with or without buffers ? Hi all There are a number of detail differences between the loco-hauled and HST versions besides the presence or absence of buffers. The main differences are in window layout, especially on the kitchen side, but as far as we know Dapol have already decided to only produce the RFM, which is a loco-hauled Mk3a vehicle. So, accepting that the window layout will be wrong for the HST versions, the other main difference between HST and loco-hauled Mk 3 catering vehicles is that the application of Blue-Grey livery was different on HSTs. The main differences are: a narrower rail grey band around the windows on hst trailers; broader red (catering) or yellow (first class) cantrail band on HST trailers than on loco hauled stock; white lining between grey and blue areas curves round onto end doors and runs vertically, parallel to gangway on loco-hauled but is cut off at the gangway end of the door on HST stock (difficult to explain - see photo links below). A loco-hauled blue-grey Mk3a in an HST will stick out as non-matching because of these livery differences. There were also differences in branding depending on the vehicle in question: Mk 3a RUB (loco hauled, 3 large saloon windows per side, number range 100xx): "Restaurant-Buffet" Mk 3a RFM (loco hauled, 4 large saloon windows, number range 102xx), as repainted by Cargo-D: "Restaurant-Buffet" or "InterCity Restaurant-Buffet" Mk 3 TRSB (HST buffet, 4 large saloon windows, number range 400xx, later 404xx) originally "Buffet", later, from around 1979, "Buffet-Bar 125" Mk 3 TRUK (HST kitchen, 4 large saloon windows, 405xx) originally "Restaurant", later "Restaurant 125" from around 1979 Mk 3 TRUB/TRFB (HST kitchen buffet, 3 large saloon windows, 403xx and 407xx) "Restaurant-Buffet 125" Here are some pictures which show the differences: Mk 3 TRUK in an HST, kitchen side: http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/3900183338/ Mk 3a RFM kitchen side (loco hauled): http://www.flickr.com/photos/45726467@N02/6448899637/ Mk 3 HST (left) and Mk 3a loco hauled (right) vehicle coupled whilst on test, showing differing width of rail grey bands: http://www.traintesting.com/images/Mk3-coach-SIG_bogie.jpg Given these differences in livery application, it would be reasonable for Dapol to produce two Blue-Grey buffets, one for the HST and one for loco hauled rakes. Perhaps Dave could give us some clarification? Incidentally, the MK 3a RFM vehicles never wore blue-grey livery when operated by BR as the type didn't exist until the mid 1980s - the original loco hauled Mk3a was the RUB, which had only three large saloon windows. All of these RUB, plus some HST TRUK and Mk 3a FO, were converted to RFM with four large saloon windows from around 1986, outshopped in Executive or INTERCITY livery. Only in the last few years have a few RFM been outshopped in blue-grey, by Cargo-D, and subsequently used by Wrexham and Shropshire. Hope this helps. Tom 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott B Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Thanks for the detailed explanation Tom, most of which I was aware of on the real life item. My point is that as far as I recall, Dapol will only be producing a single catering vehicle. Obviously for the HST this will be without buffers and with buffers for the loco hauled, so two catalog numbers per livery ? Hattons show three catalog numbers for the blue grey, one with buffers, one without, and one with no comment that is £2 dearer as well. I think you are correct and maybe Dave can enlighten us. I suspect Paddy is correct in that Hattons are getting confused with Dapols renumbering exercise. Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Sorry for the long explanation of prototype detail differences...got a bit carried away there. My understanding re catalogue numbers is that Dapol originally planned to produce two blue-grey Mk3 buffets - NC055C (no buffers) for the HST and NC054C (with buffers), the loco-hauled version. Mid-year last year, with the release of the new catalogue, a lot of catalogue numbers were changed for previously announced, but not yet released items. Only one Mk3 buffet in blue-grey was listed in the new catalogue - NC216A - and it was not specified whether this had buffers, or not. Perhaps the new listings on Hattons' website clears this up - 2P-005-010 being the HST version (no buffers, ex NC055C) and NC216A being the loco hauled/buffers version. No idea why NC054C is also listed - likely a mistake on Hattons part as you suggest. As for the price difference, I haven't a clue - but Hattons have had two near-identical Mk 3a blue grey open seconds available for several months now with a £4 difference - NC052f at £20 and NC068c at £16 - the only difference I can see is the running number. It would be great to know exactly what really is going to be produced by Dapol so we can all pre-order the right items - I, for one, have pre-ordered two NC216A from another online retailer to go with the new blue-grey East Coast HST, but perhaps I am going to end up with two Wrexham and Shropshire era RFMs! Cheers Tom Thanks for the detailed explanation Tom, most of which I was aware of on the real life item. My point is that as far as I recall, Dapol will only be producing a single catering vehicle. Obviously for the HST this will be without buffers and with buffers for the loco hauled, so two catalog numbers per livery ? Hattons show three catalog numbers for the blue grey, one with buffers, one without, and one with no comment that is £2 dearer as well. I think you are correct and maybe Dave can enlighten us. I suspect Paddy is correct in that Hattons are getting confused with Dapols renumbering exercise. Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Gauge David Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) Given these differences in livery application, it would be reasonable for Dapol to produce two Blue-Grey buffets, one for the HST and one for loco hauled rakes. Perhaps Dave could give us some clarification? Tom I think all the information Tom has provided exactly highlights the issue for Dapol and other manufacturers. Does the market support two similar though not identical blue and grey buffets in N gauge? If the hard economics say No then would we rather have one which will be correct for some but not all scenarios, or none at all? I say none at all as this thread now reminds me of some comments made in the infamous Dapol speculation frothing thread about the detail differences between the suburban 455s on the South Western lines. I know there are many people on here who are far more knowledgeable than me, and I have learnt a lot from reading posts on here over the past couple of years, but I ultimately belong to the "something is better than nothing" train of thought. I would prefer to see models made rather than manufacturers take fright at the detail differences that some modellers are aware of even within types. I too would be interested to see Dapol Dave's thoughts on the subject. And hope one day for a 321 - which looks a bit like a 455 but with one of those pantograph thingys on the roof and a different front end - surely could be done ?. ;-) Edited January 7, 2013 by N Gauge David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Gauge David Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I would prefer to see models made And made to the current high standards - or higher - that both manufacturers are now achieving in N gauge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Robert Shrives Posted January 7, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2013 Hi, I emailed Hattons several weeks ago pointing out duplication of codes and titles of vehicles, they expressed concern and would contact Dapol for clarification. hopefully Dave can equate the planned older numbers and how they relate to renumbering in old scheme . the new scheme and those on the long range radar - as others ought to be here fairly soon ! Thanks Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapolDave Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Hi Robert, I'll endeavour to do this tomorrow. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) Hi all DapolDave's imminent clarification is welcome and will hopefully clear up some other questions, for example, whether any executive or INTERCITY livery TF will be produced, and whether any further HST blue-grey firsts and seconds will be produced to match the current bookset. Thanks in advance Dave. As to whether "the market support two similar though not identical blue and grey buffets in N gauge? If the hard economics say No then would we rather have one which will be correct for some but not all scenarios, or none at all?" - only Dapol has the numbers, but I would guess that most people who have purchased a WR 253 or ER 254 in blue-grey would buy one buffet, and there might be a few more freaks like me out there who plan to model a TRSB/TRUK pairing, who will buy two buffets per set! Hopefully that would be sufficient demand for a specific HST blue grey buffet, with no buffers and the correct grey band livery application for an HST, even if it has the RFM window layout. After all, Dapol has already produced blue-grey firsts and seconds with both the HST and loco haul versions of the livery. I will now await DapolDave's clarified list of models with interest. By the way, in case anybody hadn't guessed, I think the Dapol Mk3's are great models - about 20 in the loft so far - so keep up the good work Dapol! Cheers Tom Edited January 7, 2013 by tiger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapolDave Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 Hi guys, just starting to update this list, so at the time of posting its not definitive, but being very busy i'll come back during the day and add to it. Please note these are either fully in production or on the high seas as i type. Indeed the GC buffet cars are now at Dapol ready for dispatch to stockists. cheers Dave HST non buffered coaches 2P-005-002 W&SR twin pack (buffet and MK3 first class coach) 2P-005-003 Virgin 'Pretendolno' twin pack (Buffet and 2nd class coach) 2P-005-010 Blue/Grey buffet #W40352 2P-005-020 Blue/Grey 1st class #W41125 2P-005-030 Blue/Grey 2nd class #W42033 2P-005-021 Blue/Grey 1st class #E41127 2P-005-031 Blue/Grey 2nd class #E42193 2P-005-032 Blue/Grey 2nd class #E42187 NC206H FGW Buffet #40210 NC216J Grand Central Buffet #40426 2P-005-110 InterCity Executive Buffet #40407 2P-005-120 InterCity Executive 1st class #41164 2P-005-130 InterCity Executive 2nd class #42089 2P-005-210 InterCity Swallow Buffet #40307 2P-005-220 InterCity Swallow 1st class #41157 2P-005-230 InterCity Swallow 2nd class #42202 2P-005-330 FGW 2nd class #42261 2P-005-331 FGW 2nd class #42280 2P-005-320 FGW 1st class #41133 NC216K EMT Buffet #40728 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Fantastic, thanks very much for the list Dave - looks like I have a couple of pre-orders to cancel but a whole lot more to make! Cheers Tom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Being a coach nut I have a few comments HST non buffered coaches 2P-005-002 W&SR twin pack (buffet and MK3 first class coach) - I though that WSR did not have any FO coaches only ones which were declasified. 2P-005-003 Virgin 'Pretendolno' twin pack (Buffet and 2nd class coach) Both the above are loco hauled stock with buffers 2P-005-010 Blue/Grey buffet #W40352 2P-005-210 InterCity Swallow Buffet #40307 NC216K EMT Buffet #40728 While I accept that a compromise on design of the RFM/TRSB was needed, they do look very similar with 4 passenger windows. The 403xx/407xx series have three windows, as produced by Farish. Also being very picky I have 40307 being renumbed to 40707 before IC swallow was introduced. Like Tiger I will need two blue grey ones for the TRSB/TRUK combination - it even fits in with the 254 011 set! With the other 12 I need its looking an expensive quarter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapolDave Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 yup your right, apologies for my mistake. Indeed the pretendolino and the W&SR twin packs are buffered stock. cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Thank you for the list, Dave - and as an aside, the new website looks nice. Will the fGW TSO/TFO have different coach letters to last time? I have a 'G' and three 'D's so far, all with different running numbers! It is a shame that there won't be a TRFB, but even so, with a TGS in due course my four year old will at least stop telling me our HST is too short! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted January 9, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2013 I am sure these buffets will be a good basis for getting the Xacto saw out to achieve the correct configurations! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott B Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Thank you for the list, Dave - and as an aside, the new website looks nice. Will the fGW TSO/TFO have different coach letters to last time? I have a 'G' and three 'D's so far, all with different running numbers! It is a shame that there won't be a TRFB, but even so, with a TGS in due course my four year old will at least stop telling me our HST is too short! Agreed, thanks for the list Dave, it does clear a few issues up seeing as some retailers sites still seem a tad ambiguous. Looking at the list I see no blue/grey buffet with an E prefix to match the E prefixed 1st's & 2nd's, is this the indeed case or will it come at a later date. No big deal, but dont want to renumber if I dont have too. Scott Ju Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) I am sure these buffets will be a good basis for getting the Xacto saw out to achieve the correct configurations! Depends on the livery. Matching Dapol's rendition of fGW 'swoosh' livery will be nigh on impossible. I think it's one I'll live with. Edited January 10, 2013 by Tom J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted January 10, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2013 I would only cut the window areas leaving the majority of the paintwork alone then match the base colour as closely as possible. Some liveries will be easier where the window area is a different colour Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted January 12, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2013 I have a 'G' and three 'D's so far, all with different running numbers! Yes agreed, I'd rather the (prominent) letters were different than the (virtually indistinguishable) running numbers! Sure the coaches will be worth the wait, but as the Pretendolino rake have thus far managed different letters its a shame they're duplicated on the FGW stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Isn't the difference in price down to price rises, the lower price goes back to 2011 when those items first appeared on the Hattons site for pre-order and the higher price items more recent additions to the list. I know this because I made my preorder back in October 2011. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
1977joey Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 (edited) Hi I just wondered is INTERCITY swallow RFM buffet coach with buffers NC054B going to still be produced?? It's just I gather there's a change about with production numbers & am confused. All the best, Mark Edited January 18, 2013 by 1977joey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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