The future of loco kit building

[t-b-g]

I really liked peter Denny's description of his modelling as being "Jack of all trades and master of none". Each individual model on Buckingham has probably been eclipsed in detail, accuracy and finish many hundreds of times over but the overall effect, of a complete working railway, remans amongst the most inspirational of railways.

 

I have tried to follow that route myself. I know that there are people who know far more than I do about any individual side of railways, real or model. But I am equally happy building locos, stock, track, scenery, signals, baseboards, control systems or any other facet of the hobby. I don't place any one aspect any higher than any other but if the final result of my own modelling isn't an interesting and fully operational model railway then I feel that I haven't reached what I was aiming for.

 

I haven't always followed a particular theme for my own models but I have built many locos/wagons/carriages which have ended up on other peoples layouts because they were something that I wanted to build but didn't have a layout to run them on.

 

Nowadays, things have taken a strange turn and I find myself doing modelling jobs for other people to earn a crust. I did wonder of it might spoil my enjoyment of the hobby but I am finding that the diversity of work, including building some kits from way outside of my normal area of interests, has only made modelling more enjoyable.

[Michael Delamar]

As a former BR traction instructor I cannot help noticing that many modellers know proportionally more about locos because they have been the main focus of their interest. Anyone interested in replicating the real railway in miniature (such as in a layout) should be prepared to invest sufficient time in non-loco aspects to ensure that this bias isn't reflected in their overall presentation e.g. basic errors in signalling, prototypical operation etc.

 

Dave

 

exactly, how many superb models do we see running with no lamps on the loco's,coaches, brake vans etc.

[Kenton]

exactly, how many superb models do we see running with no lamps on the loco's,coaches, brake vans etc.

 

Perhaps if they were supplied as a standard fitting on each RTR or, dare I say it, included in the kit perhaps almost every one would ... but then again how many times have the extra fittings (buffer beam detail packs) been left off?

 

Sometimes it is not the lack of desire to add such detail it is the lack of knowledge and the inability/cost of finding a suitable source.

[James]

Sometimes it is not the lack of desire to add such detail it is the lack of knowledge and the inability/cost of finding a suitable source.

 

If it's a lack of knowledge, then is that really an excuse?

 

There are so many books around with the information, not to mention all sorts of websites, that claiming ignorance isn't much of an excuse. Perhaps it's just laziness and the desire to be spoon fed which holds some people back?

 

The information is there if you want to find it.

[Kenton]

The information is there if you want to find it.

 

That may well be true. However the first step in any research is the knowledge required to be able to ask the question. As all those just being presented with the RTR or kit without such additions might well have no real idea of their existence or importance in the eyes of those who are knowledgeable. Perhaps the best move is for those who are with the knowledge to illustrate it or point it out constructively.

 

Many of these minor detailing issues can mean a lot to some but pale into total insignificance for others. A bit like point roding, telegraph wires, little people and crew on locos, and any number of other items that ultimately add detail and authenticity to a prototypical layout.

 

and still does not get away from the availability and not inconsiderable cost of adding them.

 

besides which in "my world" and "invented" location of "my trainset" they have not employed signalling as you know it.

[James]

Perhaps the best move is for those who are with the knowledge to illustrate it or point it out constructively.

 

Which many people have done through books, websites, magazine articles and forums like this.

 

But there has to be the desire to seek out the information in the first place - learning how to ask the right questions is just part of researching a topic. There has to be a point where excuses can't be made and you have to get off your arse and do it for yourself. But again, it's relies on an inidividual wanting to find out the information.

[N15class]

It is probably the need to some research that put people off kits, and complain the instructions are not detailed. If the designer shows you the way the kit is designed to go together, to me that is fine all the various detail parts change from loco to loco. So he probably can't say where they all need to go. I am always happy to do the research it is suprising what you learn.

[James]

Many of these minor detailing issues can mean a lot to some but pale into total insignificance for others. A bit like point roding, telegraph wires, little people and crew on locos, and any number of other items that ultimately add detail and authenticity to a prototypical layout.

 

To respond to your edit; if people aren't bothered, providing they don't tell me why I shouldn't be bothered then I don't mind what they do!

 

and still does not get away from the availability and not inconsiderable cost of adding them.

 

Some of those you mention don't have to cost a lot at all, but this isn't always a cheap hobby.

 

besides which in "my world" and "invented" location of "my trainset" they have not employed signalling as you know it.

 

I don't know much about signalling so might not notice!

[Donw]

I find it strange that some people can get het up about the exact shape of a chimney or the size of rivets and yet not care about details like tail lamps and signalling. As always each to their own choice. The subject of knowledge and possible research has been raised but surely anyone interested in railways is aware that signals are there. On some of the micro layouts you can either imagine its one engine in steam or that the signals are off board but most layouts look so much better for signals.

Don

[JeffP]

It's almost always the figures that spoil layouts/models for me.

 

How often do you see a near-perfect minaiture steam loco, painted and weathered to perfection, yet crewed by figures poorly painted and with poor proportions/stances/features?

 

Personally, I'd rather leave them off then use them...........

[N15class]

It's almost always the figures that spoil layouts/models for me.

 

How often do you see a near-perfect minaiture steam loco, painted and weathered to perfection, yet crewed by figures poorly painted and with poor proportions/stances/features?

 

Personally, I'd rather leave them off then use them...........

But surely getting the people right is part of the overall scene. I dont think you can leave any part of a model railway out. They all need to be done well.

[Kenton]

If the designer shows you the way the kit is designed to go together, to me that is fine all the various detail parts change from loco to loco. So he probably can't say where they all need to go.

 

Sorry ! If the designer can't tell you where the parts should go he shouldn't be designing kits. Do some of them just make it up as they go along? I thought they researched the task fully and then designed the parts to make the completed model correct in every detail.

But surely getting the people right is part of the overall scene. I dont think you can leave any part of a model railway out. They all need to be done well.

 

The people don't move so they will never be correct. Nothing worse than a "little" person standing in the middle of the road, or on a platform after the train has stopped and passed through, or crew on a loco looking as if they had died at the controls. The layout is a snapshot a frozen moment in time but has the peculiarity of model trains running through it, driven by electric motors that are powered from the rails. It is a fact that there has to be some differences between the real thing and a model.

[billbedford]

Sorry ! If the designer can't tell you where the parts should go he shouldn't be designing kits.

 

Bl**dy H**l, loco fitters couldn't tell you where all the bits went, or even which bits went on which loco. This is why the the advise to builders has always been to work from a photo of the model that they want to build.

[N15class]

Sorry ! If the designer can't tell you where the parts should go he shouldn't be designing kits. Do some of them just make it up as they go along? I thought they researched the task fully and then designed the parts to make the completed model correct in every detail.

 

So the kit designer need to know the changes on every loco in a class over their whole existance. To save you looking at a photos of your given loco. So when the kit arrives with a book the size of war and peace, with a price tag to match, will you be happy? As you will still be doing your bit of research to find what he has written about the loco you want to model.

To me it is still silly for the designer to have to do this, the position of somay things from loco to loco where different.

 

 

The people don't move so they will never be correct. Nothing worse than a "little" person standing in the middle of the road, or on a platform after the train has stopped and passed through, or crew on a loco looking as if they had died at the controls. The layout is a snapshot a frozen moment in time but has the peculiarity of model trains running through it, driven by electric motors that are powered from the rails. It is a fact that there has to be some differences between the real thing and a model.

Why do you say you need the designer of a kit to tell you where every little part goes, all of which do not work, then not add the crew which you rightly say also do not work. So why bother about fitting any of them

Yes the whole thing about modeling railways is that you model a snapshot in time. In my view the stationary people in the right dress help to set the scene. I also hate painting them as to me they are harder than locos to do. My own pet hate is DCC sound, it comes from the wrong places and the volume never changes as the loco comes and goes. The biggest problem to me with it, it is just railway noise. Sit in the country side or in a town and listen to the quiet, there is so much going on that is not replicated.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

One of the great joys of scratchbuilding, kitbuilding or superdetailing a RTR is the opportunity to create your own individual loco. Anyone can play 'spot the difference' between pictures of the same loco taken a year or so a part....they varied continually. Regions and even depots had their own ideas about the locos in their charge, this was usually most visible in paintwork variations but carried over to bodywork fittings/alterations.

 

Less confident modellers are usually the ones demanding an 'airfix' kit style set of instructions and parts.

 

Dave

[Kenton]

This is silly. IF a designer has gone to all the trouble to design a piece to include on his carefully etched fret he must know why he put it there. IF he has taken the trouble to measure the item actually on the prototype or find it on a GA drawing he must know where it fits in the overall scheme of his design. IF he has taken the trouble to test build his kit that he is selling to the public then presumably he has determined that the part is not simply scrap fret.

 

This is not about variations of actual locos - I'd perhaps then support the build from photo. Bbut if you are a kit builder as opposed to someone who has a love-in with a particular loco on a particular day in its history then you cannot be expected to have such a wealth of literature. For example even an ardent LNER supporter (I am not, yet I am as happy to build them as any other loco) I see that we are now up to Vol 50 of Yeadon's a basic and important resource for LNER locos and yes that is about £1500 of research material for the library and doesn't even begin to cover wagons and coaches or any other period/company. That level of research is fine for that one off love-in loco or the half-dozen you build for your layout. But for the kit builder who might be building anything from a B17 one week to a Castle the next to a Manning Wardle the next with a Sentinel diesel, a Kerr Stweart and Lister and the odd wagon or two thrown in has to rely on the kit being a true kit and not someone's vague ideas on brass etchings.

 

Fortunately there are designers who do go to a lot of effort to provide this information with their kits and some who go to that extra bit to provide parts to cover variants, explaining what each part is for in a diagram that does not leave you guessing. Some even manage to do it without charging silly prices for their kits.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

The principle construction of any particular class/variant of loco is usually the same. Once the basic constuction work of the kit has been completed there is often a choice of how to finish the loco 'according to ones taste'. Maybe that is the distinction that you're describing.

 

Dave

[Metropolitan]

So the kit designer need to know the changes on every loco in a class over their whole existance. To save you looking at a photos of your given loco. So when the kit arrives with a book the size of war and peace, with a price tag to match, will you be happy? As you will still be doing your bit of research to find what he has written about the loco you want to model.

To me it is still silly for the designer to have to do this, the position of somay things from loco to loco where different.

 

 

 

 

 

Several Kit producers do include parts to cater for all the changes made to a loco during its life. And these changes are made clear in the instructions. I would expect no less.

[t-b-g]

I don't agree that kit producers should be expected to give us too much on a plate. Do we also expect Hornby to produce every single A3 in every livery/condition that it ran in?

 

I would be more than happy for an accurate/well designed kit that represents a particular condition of the real thing, with perhaps some minor alternative parts for different chimneys/domes etc. to allow for the model to be correct for a greater time frame.

 

Such an approach not only keeps costs down but gives the modeller an opportunity to have some input into the finished loco by carrying out alterations.

 

Think of the LMS Black 5 (so called standard!!). Different wheelbases/boilers/fireboxes just for starters and a minefield of subtle variations. It is not fair or reasonable to expect a kit designer to cater for them all, research and document all the changes and still supply the kit at a sensible price.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

....those demanding parts for every variant at bargain basement prices are neither the ones doing the work or the ones showing an understanding of the short term nature of such an approach.

 

Dave

[Kenton]

I don't agree that kit producers should be expected to give us too much on a plate. Do we also expect Hornby to produce every single A3 in every livery/condition that it ran in?

 

Yet they seem to be doing just that with Class 37 diesels among others. Not only every variant possible but also every livery.

 

My point is not, and never has been, about every variant being covered in any kit just simply that the research already done by the designer in preparing the etches is shared - or at the bare minimum the references quoted. If they have gone to all that trouble already to include a part, sometimes a cast part then at least say what it is and where it goes. That costs them nothing more.If all I wanted was sheets of metal I'd scratch build - actually I wouldn't as that does not interest me in any form - I build kits, and expect to open a box to find a kit.

 

There was nothing wrong with Airfix kits (other than they were plastic)

[Horsetan]

Bl**dy H**l, loco fitters couldn't tell you where all the bits went, or even which bits went on which loco. This is why the the advise to builders has always been to work from a photo of the model that they want to build.

 

Now would that be why some kits come with no instructions at all, on the basis that "it's obvious, innit?"

[GC Jack]

Why do some in the hobby seem to want to have everything done for them?

 

Part of the joy of kit building - and in building a model railway - is to research the loco/project you wish to build. If you are duplicating an RTR loco in kit form then that is essential if you wan't to produce a variant not available in the RTR version - a Black 5 being a good example.

 

I don't expect a kit producer to do that, although many do give extra parts for the variation and describe them - DJH are a good at this, an excellent breakdown in the LNWR Claughton for example.

 

The same with liveries and there it is up to the kit builder to do the research, there are many good books on this and they add to the hobby and one's knowledge of the railway.

 

If you just purchase something, kit or RTR, with little knowledge of the original - its variations and where it worked (or works) where is the fun in that apart from just collecting locos?

Jack

[Grasshopper John]

I am a novice kit builder but i enjoy it for all the trials. No one could come up with a kit that embodies every single loco's differences that's why you professionals look at photo's, so do i but i still make them. To me thats the best part, make do with what you have OR make it even better, you all have the capability to do this, so why ask the manufacturer to do it for you.

some want things too easy me thinks, i prefer the hard learning curve TBH.

 

Grasshopper John.

[The Nth Degree]

I don't agree that kit producers should be expected to give us too much on a plate. Do we also expect Hornby to produce every single A3 in every livery/condition that it ran in?

But that is exactly what some kit producers do. They provide alternatives, variations and updates. That's the purpose of kits and kit building - build your loco in the condition that fits your requirement. To do something like this in RTR could cost tens of £thousands in new dies, which would have to be financially justified, and therefore unlikely. The best you can hope for are a few livery options.

 

To me, this sums up the sheer luxury of kits and the utter boredom... SORRY, excuse me, I mean the limitations of RTR.